“The truth is that our travel anticipations, and our memories, have a way of holding only the most striking parts of an experience—the parts that don’t cause burnout.” —Matt Kepnes In this episode of Deviate, Rolf and Matt talk about travel journaling, and a journal Matt has designed for travelers (1:15); why travel burnout happens, and how Matt first experienced it on the road (4:30); why rest days are important to a journey, and why one shouldn't over-plan one's days on the road (10:00); how lingering in places allows you to develop a deeper relationship to those places, and how digital nomads can balance work and fun on the road (16:00); and how to create balance in your social-media habits as you travel (23:30). Matt Kepnes (@nomadicmatt), commonly known as “Nomadic Matt,” is a travel blogger and the New York Times bestselling author of Travel the World on $50 a Day and Ten Years a Nomad. Notable Links: The Vagabond’s Way, by Rolf Potts (book) Keeping a travel journal (Deviate episode) RememberYourTravels.com (travel journal) Experiencing Norway by hammock (dispatch) Paris Writing Workshops (Rolf’s class in France) Digital nomadism (location-independent lifestyle) The Deviate theme music comes from the title track of Cedar Van Tassel’s 2017 album Lumber. Note: We don’t host a “comments” section, but we’re happy to hear your questions and insights via email, at deviate@rolfpotts.com.

Deviate with Rolf Potts

Travel burnout is a real thing (and it’s OK to feel it sometimes), with Matt Kepnes

“Things don’t happen in Las Vegas. Things are happened in Las Vegas. All actions in the town are so meticulously predicted and orchestrated that spontaneity itself exists only as the ghost of compulsion.”  –Rolf Potts (in 1998) In this episode of Deviate, Rolf and Ari discuss Rolf's 1998 Las Vegas essay "The Mystical High Church of Luck," and their relationship to their early creative work (2:30); how the experience of Las Vegas depends on what stage of life you're in, how Vegas compares to New Orleans, and how Rolf and Ari have a hard time enjoying themselves when they go there (14:00); the stereotypes that surround Las Vegas, why it is difficult to write about, and how one might find original experiences there (30:00); what it would be like to live in Las Vegas, and the mysteries and mechanics of "luck" (47:00). Ari Shaffir (@AriShaffir) is a comedian, writer, podcaster, and actor. He is the host of the Skeptic Tank podcast. His latest comedy special, JEW, is available on YouTube. Las Vegas Links: The Mystical High Church of Luck, by Rolf Potts (1998 essay) Circus Circus Las Vegas (hotel and casino) Caesars Palace (casino resort in Las Vegas) Ghostbar (Las Vegas nightclub) History of Las Vegas Rat Pack (20th century Las Vegas entertainers) Casino (1995 film) At Home in the Neon, by Dave Hickey (essay) Fear and Loathing in Las Vegas (Hunter S. Thompson novel) The Hangover (2009 American comedy film) Las Vegas, Tis of Thee, by Richard Todd (essay) Fremont Street (popular gambling street in Las Vegas) Las Vegas Strip (popular gambling street) Valley of Fire State Park (recreation area near Las Vegas) Red Rock Canyon National Conservation Area SEMA auto show (car accessory convention) Las Vegas Souvenir & Resort Gift Show (convention) Other Links: Van Life before #VanLife (Deviate episode) Salvador Dalí Museum (St. Petersburg art museum) Atlantic City (casino resort city in New Jersey) March Madness (college basketball tournament) Joe Rogan (American comedian and podcaster) Odyssey: Driving Around the World (TV documentary) Antoni Gaudí (Catalan architect) Easy Rider (1969 road-trip film) Roseanne (American TV sitcom) High Fidelity (2000 American film) Portlandia (America TV series) Souvenir, by Rolf Potts (book) TraveCon (convention) Foxwoods Resort Casino (Connecticut tribal casino) Steven Soderbergh (American filmmaker) Shepard Fairey (American artist) Tim Ferriss (American author and investor) Pablo Picasso (Spanish artist) Wandering Jew (plant) Psychogeography (creative exploration of places) Rock and Roll Hall of Fame (museum in Cleveland) The Deviate theme music comes from the title track of Cedar Van Tassel’s 2017 album Lumber. Note: We don’t host a “comments” section, but we’re happy to hear your questions and insights via email, at deviate@rolfpotts.com.

The Mystical High Church of Luck: Decoding Las Vegas (with Ari Shaffir)

“Nothing against bucket lists, but sometimes that interest that makes you weird and nerdy at home is going to make you vulnerable to all the weird nerdy people in some distant new place who are also interested in that thing.” —Rolf Potts In this episode of Deviate, Rolf and The Vagabond's Way book club participants discuss what compels us to be interested in certain places, and how Rolf's latest book is designed to be read over the course of a year (2:00); how nomads can create consistency and community in new places, and how to find good cities for families in Italy and the Balkans (4:45); how to find places to stay in places where last-minute reservations are hard to come by (8:30); how to choose where to go on a given vagabonding journey (13:00); how having a mission can give focus to your travels (17:45); and how guidebooks can still be a useful travel tool (21:10). Discussion moderator Luke Richardson is a traveler, author, and DJ based in England. Notable Links: The Vagabond’s Way, by Rolf Potts (book) Paris Writing Workshops (Rolf's class in France) Nottingham (city in England) Fudge Tunnel (sludge-rock band from Nottingham) Amalfi Coast (destination in Italy) CouchSurfing (homestay service) Hitching for pastries (Deviate episode) Kevin Kelly on Deviate Storming 'The Beach,' by Rolf Potts (essay) Marco Polo Didn't Go There, by Rolf Potts (book) Faroe Islands (Bradt Travel Guide) The Land of Maybe, by Tim Ecott (travel memoir) The Deviate theme music comes from the title track of Cedar Van Tassel’s 2017 album Lumber. Note: We don’t host a “comments” section, but we’re happy to hear your questions and insights via email, at deviate@rolfpotts.com.

How travelers create quests and find community (online book club remix)

“You hear how there's many words for snow in native cultures in Canada; there are actually over 20 words for 'fog' in the Faroe Islands.”  –Matthew Landrum In this episode of Deviate, Rolf and Matthew discuss what makes the landscape and culture of the Faroe Islands distinctive, and how Matthew came to study Faroese (2:00); how your motivation to travel to a place affects what you see and experience there, and how isolation affects people's worldview in a place like the Faroes (13:00); Faroese history, art, and culture, and how World War II transformed it (24:00); how the weather affects one's experience of the Faroe Islands, and what it's like to travel there (34:00); and how the Faroe Islands have changed -- and stayed the same -- over the years (46:00). Matthew Landrum (@MatthewLandrum) is a writer, speaker, and teacher. He is the translator of Faroese poet Katrin Ottarsdottir's Are There Copper Pipes in Heaven, and the author of Berlin Poems. He lives in Detroit where he teaches at a private school for students on the autism spectrum. Faroese music, art, and literature links: Eivør Pálsdóttir (Faroese singer-songwriter) Teitur Lassen (Faroese singer-songwriter) Christine De Luca (Shetlandic poet) Viking metal (music subgenre) Týr (Faroese folk metal band) Trom (TV series set in the Faroe Islands) William Heinesen (Faroese novelist and painter) Magic realism (style of literary fiction) Faroese ballads (traditional music and dance) Ring Cycles (Germanic heroic legends) Völsunga saga (Norse saga involving dragons) Hjalmar and Ingeborg (Faroese ballad) Faroese travel, language, and geography links: Streymoy (largest and most populated of the Faroe Islands) Tórshavn (capital city of the Faroe Islands) International Summer Institute in Faroese Language Norn language (extinct North Germanic language) Týr (Norse god of war) The case for trekking on foot (Deviate episode) Vágar Airport (only airport in the Faroes) Akvavit (Scandinavian distilled spirit) Kirkjubøur (cathedral-ruin village in the Faroes) Gásadalur (village near Múlafossur Waterfall) Heimablídni (Faroese home-hospitality meals) Skerpikjøt (Faroese wind-dried mutton) Lutefisk (traditional Scandinavian dish) University of the Faroe Islands (school in Tórshavn) Note: We don’t host a “comments” section, but we’re happy to hear your questions and insights via email, at deviate@rolfpotts.com.

Art introduces us to places before we go there (live from the Faroe Islands)

“"I wasn't partying. I wasn't relaxing on the beach. I was photographing – working – every minute of the day. That was a means to see as much as I possibly could. And to keep looking.”  –Kevin Kelly In this episode of Deviate, Rolf and Kevin discuss the ambitions and connections that led Kevin to Asia not long after high school (2:30); how Kevin's interest in photography affected his experience of Asia (7:30); how seeing other cultures gave him perspective on his own culture, and on himself, and his countrymen (15:00); how photography gave him intensified attention to what in the world might be changing (23:00); how AI and other technology are changing how we live, create, and travel (30:00); how to travel in such a way that you are open to phenomenon and experiences you don't know of yet, and how technology might enable a "protopia" future (40:00). Kevin Kelly (@kevin2kelly) is a co-founder of Wired magazine, a co-founder of the Rosetta Project, and he serves on the board of the Long Now Foundation. He is a photographer, writer, and futurist, with much of his work centering on Asian and digital culture. His three-volume photo book Vanishing Asia draws on 50 years of vagabonding travel experiences, and his newest book, Excellent Advice for Living: Wisdom I Wish I'd Known Earlier, debuts in May of 2023. Notable Links: The Vagabond's Way, by Rolf Potts (book) Leaves of Grass, by Walt Whitman (poetry book) Communitas (egalitarian ethos of shared interest) Jan Chipchase (design innovator) Wired (magazine) Rick Prelinger (American archivist) Stewart Brand (founder of the Whole Earth Catalog) Shenzhen (city in China) A Pattern Language (1977 urban design book) "What AI-Generated Art Means for Human Creativity" (article) "A Brief History of Smell-O-Vision" (article) Burning Man (event in the US) Kumbh Mela (event in India) Musical.ly (defunct social media app) "Forget Utopia. Ignore Dystopia. Embrace Protopia!" (article) The Deviate theme music comes from the title track of Cedar Van Tassel’s 2017 album Lumber. Note: We don’t host a “comments” section, but we’re happy to hear your questions and insights via email, at deviate@rolfpotts.com.

Travel can be a way to see the future (and experience the past), with Kevin Kelly

"Success is often about finding just enough material wealth to fund the life that makes you happy." —Rolf Potts In this episode of Deviate, Rolf and The Nomadic Network book club participants discuss how travel can intensify the attention you pay to life at home (2:30); how the best discoveries of travel can't be planned, and how you can give yourself permission to travel at all ages in life (10:30); how travel can give you perspective on the notion of "success" (22:00); what various book club participants have learned from (and discovered on) their travels (34:00); and the details of Rolf's annual Travel Memoir writing class in Paris (41:00). Notable Links: The Nomadic Network book club (online events with Rolf) Marco Polo Didn't Go There book club (Deviate episode) The Vagabond's Way, by Rolf Potts (book) Rolf's 2022 appearance on the Tim Ferriss Show (podcast) On Kawara (Japanese conceptual artist) Mallory Square (waterfront plaza in Key West) Oia (village on the Greek island of Santorini) Tony Perrottet on Deviate (podcast episode) Real on the Road (David Hunter Bishop travel blog) Rolf traveling with Sudanese in Syria (blog dispatch) Sei Shōnagon (10th century Japanese author) John Muir (American naturalist and author) Gobi Desert (arid region in East Asia) Van life before #VanLife (Deviate episode) Søren Kierkegaard (Danish philosopher) Bennifer (high-profile celebrity relationship) Paris Writing Workshop (Rolf's summer writing classes) The Deviate theme music comes from the title track of Cedar Van Tassel’s 2017 album Lumber. Note: We don’t host a “comments” section, but we’re happy to hear your questions and insights via email, at deviate@rolfpotts.com.

The best age to travel is whatever age you are now (an online book club remix)

“Travel has become a way to remind myself how it feels to get lost, and then get unlost. It is a way to remember the discomfort of uncertainty and the unfamiliar. It’s an exercise in receiving the unexpected.”  –Kristin Van Tassel In this episode of Deviate, Rolf and Kristin discuss being in DC, living in Kansas, and Kristin's family trip to Mexico using migrant-economy buses (1:30); how seeking international restaurants and grocery stores at home can be a window into distant cultures (8:00); Kristin's motivation to learn Spanish in middle age, and how it connects to her perspective as a teacher (16:00); Kristin's harrowing experience of getting lost on a run in Nairobi in 1990, and how getting lost in a place is a way of experiencing it in a deeper way (20:30); how Kristin experienced the country and culture of Moldova through soups and salads while being hosted there by a former student (34:30); and how to stay open to being lost without compromising yourself, and embrace unfamiliar languages as a traveler and learner (41:00). Kristin Van Tassel teaches writing and American literature at Bethany College in Lindsborg, Kansas. She writes essays and poetry about place, teaching, motherhood, and travel. Notable Links: National Portrait Gallery (art museum in Washington, DC) Lindsborg (Swedish-American town in Kansas) Long-distance hiking at home (Deviate episode) Guanajuato (city in Mexico) Zacatecas (state in Mexico) Meeting Sudanese refugees in Syria (dispatch by Rolf Potts) Hmong people (ethnic group in Southeast Asia) Salina (small city in Kansas) Kimchi (Korean side-dish) "Swamp Creatures," by Kristin Van Tassel (essay) "Swallowing Fear in San Miguel de Allende" (essay) Hangul (Korean writing system) Punta del Diablo (beach village in Uruguay) Nairobi (capital city of Kenya) Rolf's 2010 no-baggage round-the-world journey The Vagabond's Way, by Rolf Potts (book) Chișinău (capital city of Moldova) Anna Gabur's baking-themed Instagram Borscht (Eastern European soup) The Deviate theme music comes from the title track of Cedar Van Tassel’s 2017 album Lumber. Note: We don’t host a “comments” section, but we’re happy to hear your questions and insights via email, at deviate@rolfpotts.com.

Seek out global connections while you’re still at home (with Kristin Van Tassel)

"Running back John Levi is about as easy to stop as a 200-pound eel. With his speed, and his shifting, sidestepping style of running, tacklers slide off of him like rain off a slicker." --From the Minneapolis Star, October 1923 In this episode of Deviate, Rolf talks about a 1927 football game between the New York Giants and an all-indigenous Oklahoma team called the Hominy Indians, and how the team's star player, John Levi, was the father of Rolf's junior high gym coach (0:00); John Levi's early years as a football player at Haskell Institute, and Haskell's games against teams like Baylor and Minnesota (5:00); Haskell's game against the Quantico Marines at Yankee Stadium, and how it led to John Levi being offered a baseball contract (10:30); how professional football was different in the 1920s than it is now (14:00); how Osage County, Oklahoma was in the midst of an oil boom in the 1920s (17:30) the specifics of the 1927 New York Giants versus Hominy Indians game (20:30); and how John Levi's legacy was embodied by his son, a U.S. Marine veteran who later became a physical education teacher in Wichita, Kansas (22:30). John Levi, Jr. served as a medic for the First Marine Division during the Korean War. He later taught physical education for several decades at Hadley Junior High School in Wichita, Kansas. Now retired, he lives in Green Valley, Arizona. Sports-related Links: John Levi (Arapaho multi-sport athlete) Hominy Indians (1920s Oklahoma football team) 1927 New York Giants (football team) Playground of the Native Son (2013 film) "They Might be Giants" (article about the Hominy-Giants game) Super Bowl 57 (NFL football championship) Jim Thorpe (Sac and Fox Nation multi-sport athlete) Barry Sanders (NFL running back) Patrick Mahomes (NFL quarterback) 1923 Quantico Marines Devil Dogs (football team) Red Grange (college and NFL running back) Olympics amateurism rules (aristocratic sporting ethos) Harrisburg Senators (minor-league baseball team) History of the National Football League Pottsville Maroons (defunct NFL football team) Kansas City Cowboys (defunct NFL football team) Akron Pros (defunct NFL football team) Buffalo Bisons (defunct NFL football team) Barnstorming (traveling sports exhibitions) John Mosier (NFL tight end) Russ Campbell (NFL tight end) Other notable Links: A personal history of being a football fan (Deviate episode) Haskell Institute (Native American school in Kansas) Carlyle Industrial School (Indian boarding school) Indian Citizenship Act of 1924 Osage County, Oklahoma Killers of the Flower Moon (2023 movie) David Grann (author) Hominy (town in Oklahoma) Fairfax (town in Oklahoma) Growing up racially diverse (Deviate episode) Battle of Inchon (Korean War amphibious invasion) Second Battle of Seoul (Korean War urban battle) Battle of Chosin Reservoir (Korean War winter battle) Band of Brothers (book by Stephen Ambrose) The Deviate theme music comes from the title track of Cedar Van Tassel’s 2017 album Lumber. Note: We don’t host a “comments” section, but we’re happy to hear your questions and insights via email, at deviate@rolfpotts.com.

A Native American football team beat the 1927 NFL Giants: The story of John Levi

“For ancient Roman tourists, the whole point of travel was to go where everyone else was going. Sightseeing was a form of pilgrimage.” –Tony Perrottet In this episode of Deviate, Rolf and Tony discuss the habits idiosyncrasies of ancient Roman tourists, and how they relate to modern travel (1:30); the class tensions and expectations inherent in different types of modern and historical travelers, and how the "unexpected" affects these journeys (17:00); the appeal of Egypt to both ancient and modern tourists (22:30); how mythic ages can be a prism through which to see a place (33:00); how travel and geographical endeavor is an important task for a historian (44:30); and how the experience of travel has and hasn't changed over the years (55:30). Tony Perrottet (@TonyPerrottet) is the author of six books, including Pagan Holiday: On the Trail of Ancient Roman Tourists; The Sinner’s Grand Tour: A Journey Through the Historical Underbelly of Europe; and The Naked Olympics: The True Story of the Greek Games. Notable Links: The Nomadic Network book club (online events with Rolf) Vagabond's Way sweepstakes (online giveaway) Yousuf Karsh (Canadian photographer) Petra (ancient Nabataean city in Jordan) Troy (ancient city in modern-day Turkey) Grand Tour (travel rite from 17th-19th centuries) Explorer's Club (professional society in New York) Lionel Casson (historian who wrote on ancient Rome) Ludwig Friedländer (scholar who wrote on ancient Rome) Wenamun (ancient Egyptian traveler) Appian Way (ancient Roman road) Gladiator (2000 film) Sultan Hotel (Rolf's favorite hostel in Cairo) Valley of the Kings (ancient tomb complex in Egypt) Felucca (Mediterranean sailing boat) Egypt's Entrepreneur Awards Belle Époque (period of French history) Giacomo Casanova (Italian adventurer) Johann Wolfgang von Goethe (German poet) Theseus (mythical Athenian king) Nero (Roman emperor) Ephesus (ancient Greek city) The ancient Greek Olympics (Deviate episode) Sagas of Icelanders (medieval narratives) Alhambra (Islamic-era fortress in Spain) Souvenir (book by Rolf Potts) True Cross (crucifixion cross sought by medieval pilgrims) Holy Prepuce (foreskin sought by medieval pilgrims) Paris Writing Workshops (Rolf's writing classes) The Deviate theme music comes from the title track of Cedar Van Tassel’s 2017 album Lumber. Note: We don’t host a “comments” section, but we’re happy to hear your questions and insights via email, at deviate@rolfpotts.com.

Why you go someplace is less important than just going (with Tony Perrottet)

“A willingness to fail is an important part of difficult beauty. Because difficult beauty will arrive first not as beauty at all.” –Chloe Cooper Jones In this episode of Deviate, Rolf and Chloe discuss the philosophical concept of "easy beauty" and "difficult beauty" in the context of travel (2:30); how our relationship to places changes over time with repeated exposure (15:00); how art and travel, home and adventure, became important aspects of Chloe's life (23:00); how the archetype of the "Hero's Journey" evokes aspects of home as well as travel (35:30); Chloe's investigation and experience of "dark tourism" in Cambodia, and how it gave her perspective on how other people view her disability (45:15) and how there's no easy way to navigate the polarities of the self, but trying to do so can result in a hard-won experience of beauty (1:08:00). Chloe Cooper Jones (@CCooperJones) is the author of Easy Beauty: A Memoir. She has been a Pulitzer Prize finalist in Feature Writing, and was the recipient of a Whiting Creative Nonfiction Grant, as well as a Howard Foundation Grant from Brown University. Notable Links: Bernard Bosanquet (English philosopher) Sublime (philosophical concept) Paris Writing Workshops (Rolf's summer writing classes) The Vagabond's Way, by Rolf Potts (book) Lake Como (lake region in Italy) "The Loss of the Creature," essay by Walker Percy Teotihuacan (pyramid site in Mexico) Pico Iyer (travel writer) Zen and the Art of Motorcycle Maintenance (book) Quality (philosophical concept) "Such Perfection," (Believer essay by Chloe Cooper Jones) The High Line (elevated greenway park in New York City) Roland Barthes (French literary theorist) Souvenir, by Rolf Potts (book) The Sheltering Sky, by Paul Bowles (novel) Heroes of the Fourth Turning (2019 play by Will Arbery) "The Grateful Acre," monologue from Arbery's play Hero's journey (narrative template) Minangkabau people (ethnic group in Sumatra) Wanderjahre (journeyman tradition in Germany) Gyoza (Chinese dumplings) Thich Nhat Hanh (Vietnamese Buddhist monk) Killing Fields (genocide sites in Cambodia) Poetics, by Aristotle (philosophical treatise) Catharsis (purging or purification of emotions) The Philosophy of Horror, by Noël Carroll (book) Dark tourism (phenomenon of travel to tragic places) Tuol Sleng (Cambodian genocide museum) Francis Galton (English explorer and geographer) Tuk-tuk (auto-rickshaw common in SE Asia) Sørumsand (provincial town in Norway) The Deviate theme music comes from the title track of Cedar Van Tassel’s 2017 album Lumber. Note: We don’t host a “comments” section, but we’re happy to hear your questions and insights via email, at deviate@rolfpotts.com.

Integrating love of travel & love of home (with philosopher Chloe Cooper Jones)

“Travel is one of the few activities we engage in not knowing the outcome and reveling in that uncertainty. Nothing is more forgettable than the trip that goes exactly as planned.” –Eric Weiner In this episode of Deviate, Rolf and Eric discuss the tendency of travelers to idealize the very recent bygone past in places, and Rolf's experience of traveling by freighter ship (2:00); Eric's satisfaction in returning to places he's visited before, such as India, and how to remain open to uncertainty and surprise on the road (9:30); how conversations about travel differ from generation to generation, culture to culture, person to person (20:00); what it was like for Eric to have his book The Geography of Bliss adapted into a TV show, and the nuances behind the concept of "happiness" (28:30); how the experience of travel is inevitably intertwined with the experience of home (38:00); how luxury hotels can insulate you from the experience of a place, and how "adventure travel" is modern concept (43:30); and how Eric's relationship to home, and to time, has changed over the years (58:30). Eric Weiner (@Eric_Weiner) is an award-winning journalist, bestselling author, and speaker. His books include The Socrates Express, and The Geography of Bliss, which is being made into a six-part docu-series, featuring actor Rainn Wilson, and due to air on NBC's Peacock streaming service. For more about Eric, check out https://ericweinerbooks.com/ Notable Links: Philosophy compels us to live better (Deviate episode) Rainn Wilson and the Geography of Bliss (TV series) The Vagabond's Way, by Rolf Potts (book) Boatswain (deck boss on a freighter ship) Seven Pillars of Wisdom (book by T.E. Lawrence) Eric Weiner's Atlas of Ideas (email newsletter) Keitai denwa (Japanese mobile phone culture) Grunge (1990s alternative music culture) K-Pop (Korean popular music) Hangul (Korean alphabet) World Happiness Report Rainn Wilson (TV actor and producer) Quilts for Kids Nepal (nonprofit organization) Ibn Battuta (medieval Moroccan traveler) Beryl Markham (aviator and author) Kamba (ethnic group in Kenya) Thar Desert (arid region in India) The Geography of Genius, by Eric Weiner (book) Yi-Fu Tuan (Chinese-American geographer) "Little Gidding" (poem by T.S. Eliot) Uffizi Gallery (museum in Florence) Teaism (DC-based teahouse) The Deviate theme music comes from the title track of Cedar Van Tassel’s 2017 album Lumber. Note: We don’t host a “comments” section, but we’re happy to hear your questions and insights via email, at deviate@rolfpotts.com.

Travel contracts your possessions and expands your life (with Eric Weiner)

“Travel expands time, because you're not experiencing the everyday of what you normally do. It's all about discovery, and experiencing that with other people.” —Pegi Vail In this episode of Deviate, Rolf and Pegi talk about how she originally sought to depict a "visual ethnography" of world travelers, their global impacts, and their power as a "gentrifying" force (2:00); how the world of travel has (and hasn't) changed since Pegi made her film ten years ago, and how immigrants and migrant workers also represent travel communities just like backpackers and expats (11:00); the ways the notion of "journey" can serve as a metaphor for non-travel experiences, and how travel can expand one's sense of time (26:30); what stories travelers choose to tell about places, and how drug-scenes have fueled travel communitas over the years (31:00); the role digital photography now plays in travel, and the individualized notion of what an "explorer" is (39:30); and the importance of allowing yourself to get lost on that road, the "structured danger" of most adventure travel, and relying on your "personness" (rather than technology) as a traveler (49:00). Pegi Vail is an anthropologist and filmmaker who directed the documentary Gringo Trails.  She is also a sustainable-travel consultant whose academic work has focused on visual anthropology, Indigenous media, and the role of storytelling to the political economy of tourism in the developing world. She is the Co-Director of New York University’s Center for Media, Culture, and History. Vail is a founding member, curator, and featured storyteller of the popular not-for-profit storytelling collective, The Moth. Notable Links: The Vagabond’s Way, by Rolf Potts (travel book) Williamsburg (gentrified neighborhood in Brooklyn) Banana Pancake Trail (travel circuit in SE Asia) Lower East Side Tenement Museum (historic site in NYC) History of hosteling (inexpensive lodging system) Hippie Trail (overland travel circuit in 1960s and 1970s) The Great Gatsby, by F. Scott Fitzgerald (novel) Hmong people (ethic group in SE Asia) Nelson H. H. Graburn (anthropology scholar) Communitas (communities created by shared endeavor) Arnold van Gennep (ethnographer who coined "rites of passage") Chaebol (South Korean industrial conglomerate) Rolf and Ari Shaffir talk psychedelics (Deviate episode) Backpack Ambassadors, by Richard Ivan Jobs (book) Margaret Mead Film Festival (documentary film festival) Spike Lee (American filmmaker) Melvin Estrella (Pegi's partner and film producer) J. Edgar Hoover (American law-enforcement administrator) Eurail Pass (European train pass popular with backpackers) On Photography, by Susan Sontag (book) The Explorers Club (professional club in New York) Saul Bellow (American novelist) A Field Guide to Getting Lost, by Rebecca Solnit (book) Beryl Markham (British-African aviator and author) Digital detoxing (intentional refrain from using digital devices) Hippocampus (part of the brain) The Deviate theme music comes from the title track of Cedar Van Tassel’s 2017 album Lumber. Note: We don’t host a “comments” section, but we’re happy to hear your questions and insights via email, at deviate@rolfpotts.com.

Travelers create their own distinct global culture (with anthropologist Pegi Vail)

"Why fly fourteen hours from New York to Johannesburg to see a South African version of Brooklyn? To me, the only reason to know what destinations are 'hot' is to avoid them." —Seth Kugel In this episode of Deviate, Rolf and Seth talk about how the travel industry both helps and hinders the travel experience, and how Seth first experienced travel when he was young (1:30); tourist desire, the "beaten path," and the contradictions of what travelers seek in AirBnbs and related property-renting services (10:30); dealing with language barriers overseas, and social versus literal risks overseas (20:00); balancing general tourist advice versus nuanced insights as a travel writer, and the role new technologies play in travel decisions (27:00); and why it's a good idea to avoid places that have been deemed "trendy," and how to break out of the bad habits of travel (40:30). Seth Kugel (@sethkugel) is a travel writer, freelance journalist, and host of the Amigo Gringo YouTube channel. He was the Frugal Traveler columnist for the New York Times from 2010 to 2016, and he is most recently the author of the book Rediscovering Travel: A Guide for the Globally Curious. For more on Seth, check out his website http://sethkugel.com/ Notable Links: The Vagabond’s Way, by Rolf Potts (travel book) Transnistria (breakaway part of Moldova) Nagorno-Karabakh (breakaway part of Azerbaijan) The World in a Selfie, by Marco D'Eramo (book) Principe Real (neighborhood in Lisbon) Wichita Vortex Sutra (poem by Allen Ginsberg) Nancy Mitford (English novelist) Barbarian Days, by William Finnegan (book) Arthur Frommer (guidebook writer) Bukittinggi (city in Sumatra) Malcolm X (American activist and traveler) Bangkok Post (English-language newspaper in Thailand) Hindustan Times (English-language newspaper in India) "Free Fallin'" (song by Tom Petty) Punta Cana (resort town in the Dominican Republic) "Driving Through the Heartland," by Seth Kugel (article) Chicken Annie's and Chicken Mary's (Kansas restaurants) Red Queen's race (metaphor about running to stand still) The Deviate theme music comes from the title track of Cedar Van Tassel’s 2017 album Lumber. Note: We don’t host a “comments” section, but we’re happy to hear your questions and insights via email, at deviate@rolfpotts.com.

The travel industry is here to help you; feel free to ignore it (with Seth Kugel)

“There’s no getting lost when you travel, because you’re already there. You’re already where you’re supposed to be, which is somewhere in this new place.” –Ari Shaffir In this episode of Deviate, which took place at New York City's KGB Bar, Rolf and Ari talk about the premise of Rolf's new book The Vagabond's Way (2:20); why it's important not to postpone one's dream travels to a seemingly more appropriate time of life, and how it's hard for your friends to appreciate and understand your travels when you get home (7:30); how to not let your smartphones and photographs get in the way of your best journey (15:00); how to best decide where to start on a journey, and why allowing yourself to get lost is sometimes the best way to find experiences a place (23:00); why the philosophical concept of "time wealth" is important to Rolf, and how travel allows you to express a unique feeling freedom (31:30); how the The Vagabond's Way is the "spiritual successor" to Vagabonding, and how Rolf keeps travel in conversation with his home life in Kansas (36:00); and how to savor a new place in the moment, even as that place is changing (44:00). Ari Shaffir (@AriShaffir) is a comedian, writer, podcaster, and actor. He is the host of the Skeptic Tank podcast. His new comedy special, JEW, is available on YouTube. Notable Links: Paris Writing Workshops (Rolf's summer creative writing classes) The Vagabond's Way, by Rolf Potts (travel book) Henry Rollins on Ari's podcast Skeptic Tank Commonplace book (method of compiling knowledge) Jasmin Shah (photographer) Wenamun (ancient Egyptian traveler) Matsuo Bashō, (Japanese poet and traveler) On Photography, by Susan Sontag (book) Mentawai people (inhabitants of islands near Sumatra) Cypress Hill (American hip-hop group) Pico Iyer (travel writer) Pagan Holiday, by Tony Perrottet (book) Icelandic Sagas (Nordic historic narratives) Koshary (Egyptian national dish) Chefchaouen (city in Morocco) Tétouan (city in Morocco) Inle Lake (lake in Myanmar) Eddy L. Harris (travel writer) Aosta Valley (region in the Italian Alps) Instagram shot of Rolf's first vagabonding trip Mary Oliver (American poet) Lindsborg, Kansas ("Little Sweden") Lower East Side (neighborhood in Manhattan) Umbria (region in Italy) The Deviate theme music comes from the title track of Cedar Van Tassel’s 2017 album Lumber. Note: We don’t host a “comments” section, but we’re happy to hear your questions and insights via email, at deviate@rolfpotts.com.

Deviate Live in NYC: The Vagabond’s Way (onstage at KGB Bar with Ari Shaffir)

“Travel is often one part geography and nine parts imagination.” –Kate Harris In this episode of Deviate Rolf and Kate discuss how travel can transform one's idea of what "exploration" is (3:00); the concept of borders (14:00); nostalgia and the transformational effect of travel (25:00); the role of home in relation to travel (34:00); and letting adventure into your life (44:00). Kate Harris (@kateonmars) is an adventure writer, named by Condé Nast Traveler as one of the “world’s most adventurous women.” Her work has appeared in Outside, The Walrus, and Georgia Review. Her book, Lands of Lost Borders, is a national bestseller For more about Kate, check out www.kateharris.ca Notable Links: Rolf’s Q&A with Kate Harris (book foreword) Silk Road (network of trade routes) Ernest Shackleton (explorer) Fridtjof Nansen (explorer) Annie Dillard (American author) Wind, Sand and Stars, by Antoine de Saint-Exupery (book) Henry David Thoreau (writer) My Journey to Lhasa, by Alexandra David-Neel (book) Aksai Chin (region administered by China) Marco Polo (historical figure) Tomas Tranströmer (poet) Atlin (community in British Columbia) The Deviate theme music comes from the title track of Cedar Van Tassel’s 2017 album Lumber. Note: We don’t host a “comments” section, but we’re happy to hear your questions and insights via email, at deviate@rolfpotts.com.

Reinvent what it means to be an “explorer” (with Kate Harris)

Rolf Potts veers off-topic in this unique series of conversations with experts, public figures, and intriguing people.

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Deviate with Rolf Potts

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