We have arrived at the final episode of Season 1 of Human Nurture!Not only is this the finale, it is also about attachment theory-- one of PACT's main ingredients -- and it features the renowned researcher Ed Tronick.Ed joins us with his co-author Claudia Gold to discuss their recently released book, The Power of Discord. Ed and Claudia offer a take on attachment theory that focuses on growth through the process of mismatch, mess and repair. They look at this process through Claudia's clinical work and Ed's attachment research with care-givers and young children through the Still Face Experiment.It is a heart-felt interview that touches on the current discord in our lives as COVID-19 spreads across our world and the murder of George Floyd reverberates through protests in our streets. We are also joined by the founder of PACT, Stan Tatkin, who provides us with his thoughts on the interview with Ed and Claudia, attachment theory and the overwhelming challenges of this moment in our lives.Time-----00:00:00 - 00:01:45 -Jason Introduction00:01:45-01:01:16 - Jason, Ed Tronick and Claudia Gold01:01:16-01:18:13 - Jason and Stan TatkinResources-----The Power of Discord on Amazon:https://www.amazon.com/Power-Discord-Relationships-Building-Resilience/dp/0316488879Still Face Experiment example video:https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=apzXGEbZht0Ed Tronick WikiPedia:https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Edward_TronickClaudia Golde's website and books:https://www.claudiamgoldmd.com/ 

Human Nurture

Human Nurture - Ep 16 - PACT in Theory - Ed Tronick and Claudia Gold on Attachment

In April of 2020, Rob Fisher joined us for the Somatic Episode (Episode #11) and I rushed it out because it provided some much needed grounding as COVID-19 began spreading to the United States and we entered into those early days of sheltering in place.  Releasing the episode quickly meant that I was unable to get Stan Tatkin's take on the interview with Rob.  It is now June of 2020, I caught up with Stan and he provides his great sense of humor and wise PACT-context on the somatic interview with Rob Fisher.

Episode 11 Addendum-- Stan Tatkin on Somatic Therapy and Rob Fisher Interview

We are getting close to the end of this first season of the Human Nurture Podcast as we do our deep dive into the underlying elements of the Psychobiological Approach to Couples Therapy.  This episode is a second look at somatic therapy as seen through the perspective of Marjorie Rand, a long time Integrative Body Psychotherapist. Marjorie co-authored the book Body, Self and Soul with the founder of IBP, Jack Rosenberg and has extensive training in yoga, gestalt and somatic therapies.  The episode is a nice compliment to Episode 11 which featured Rob Fisher and also covers somatic therapy.  Marjorie offers great examples of how to bring the body into our work with couples through experiential interventions. She will make you a believer in the use of breath and connection to the body as a way to sustain ourselves and remain deeply engaged both inside and outside the consulting room.Follow along of Facebook @humannurturepodcastTime-----00:00:00 - 00:02:12 -Jason Introduction0:02:19-01:07:13 - Jason and Marjorie RandResources-----IBP Website: http://www.ibponline.org/about.phpMarjorie's Book: Body, Self and Soul:https://www.amazon.com/Body-Self-Soul-Sustaining-Integration-ebook/dp/B00Y3CCN8I/ref=sr_1_1?crid=2BC0LKFWRSLFF&dchild=1&keywords=body+self+and+soul&qid=1590882220&sprefix=body+self+and+soul%2Caps%2C217&sr=8-1IBP Global Outreach From Dr. Beverly Morse (Co-founder of IBP) and Margie Gayle.  An interview that introduces four breathing techniques specifically for tele-health:https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cjtdvSMzm5o&feature=youtu.be  

Human Nurture - Ep 15 - PACT in Theory - Marjorie Rand on Somatic Therapy

In this episode we delve into the underlying PACT element of neuroscience in interviews with Lou Cozolino and Stan Tatkin.  Dr. Cozolino is a professor at Pepperdine University and the author of numerous books and articles about the overlap of developmental neuroscience and psychotherapy.  Dr. Tatkin is the founder of the PACT Institute and has written extensively about the overlap of developmental neuroscience and couple therapy.  They both had formative experiences in Alan Schore's study groups in developmental affective neuroscience, both maintain private practices and both live in Southern California.  They also share in the ability to translate neuroscience in a way that makes sense to the psychotherapist. All of this overlap provides a solid foundation to build a better of understanding of neuroscience, it is also interesting to listen for the ways their paths diverge and how their work with different patient populations impacts  their perspective on psychobiology.  As usual, Stan generously leads us off and helps to get us situated in how the interview with Lou can be understood from the perspective of couples and secure functioning.Time-----00:00:00 - 00:03:10 -Jason Introduction00:02:00-00:41:25 - Jason and Stan Tatkin00:41:25-01:27:44 - Jason and Lou CozolinoResources-----Lou Cozolino’s books on Amazon:https://www.amazon.com/Louis-J.-Cozolino/e/B001H6IW0G%3Fref=dbs_a_mng_rwt_scns_share Short video of Lou on Inspire Ideas:https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MYokFn1nw4QInformation about Allan Schore:http://www.allanschore.com/  

Human Nurture - Ep 14 - PACT in Theory - Lou Cozolino on Neuroscience

In this quarantine bonus episode I check-in with my PACT colleagues a few weeks after we published our article about adapting PACT therapy to telehealth. We discuss the ups and downs of life as a couples therapist behind a digital screen and share our observations about what the couples we work with are facing during the COVID19 pandemic.Here is a link to the article:https://www.thepactinstitute.com/blog/love-in-the-time-of-the-coronavirus-pact-and-telehealthFeatured in this episode:Gabrielle Usatynski, LPCPACT Level 3 Therapist, PACT Ambassadorpowercouplescounseling.com Carolyn Sharp, LICSWPACT Level 3 Therapist, PACT Ambassador  carolynsharp.com Beth O’Brien, Ph.D., Licensed PsychologistPACT Level 3 Therapist, PACT Ambassadorbethobriencounseling.com Jason Brand, LCSWPACT Level 2, PACT Ambassadorjasonbrand.com

Love in the Time of the Coronavirus: PACT and Telehealth Redux

I thought it would be helpful to have Rob Fisher's couple meditation as a separate mp3 file.  Enjoy! Resources-----Rob's website: https://robfishermft.com/Rob's book: https://www.amazon.com/Experiential-Psychotherapy-Couples-Creative-Pragmatist-ebook/dp/B014JMZE96/ref=sr_1_1?dchild=1&keywords=rob+fisher+mft&qid=1586648062&sr=8-1Rob helps translate the body language in a television show:https://www.facebook.com/humannurturepodcast/videos/3630503223691208

Somatic Bonus-- Rob Fisher Couple Meditation

In this episode, we explore the underlying PACT element of somatic practice with Rob Fisher, MFT. The episode was scheduled for release in June, however, it feels important to make it immediately available as we grapple with with the uncertainty of the COVID-19 outbreak. Talking to Rob would have been helpful at any time but during this unprecedented moment the focus on present time awareness through somatic experience feels both personally and professionally helpful. Personally, the interview provided a great sense of solace and much needed grounding. Professionally, with the shift to telehealth I have been finding myself relying far more on somatic based interventions to amplify feelings and Rob gives clear instruction on how to make this happen.It was important for this episode that the interview fit the topic, and I asked Rob if we could find ways to make our conversation feel more experiential and somatically based. Rob delivered. The interview features an original poem, an example of a guided couple meditation, a translation of body language in a television show and Rob helping me to follow my own somatic experience.It is his generosity and ability to bring somatic practice to the present moment that make this interview feel so alive and immediately applicable. Rob really demonstrates that even from behind a computer screen, while social distancing, we can still find a deep sense of love and connection in our personal and professional lives.The downside to pushing this episode out quickly is that I have not been able talk to Stan Tatkin about his reflections about the conversation with Rob and his thoughts on the importance of somatic practice in PACT. Fear not, Stan will give a listen and in a couple of months I will release that interview as an addendum. Thanks for listening. Stay tuned and stay healthy.Follow along of Facebook @humannurturepodcastTime-----00:00:00 - 00:02:18 -Jason Introduction0:02:19-01:06:44 - Jason and Rob Fisher Resources-----Rob's website: https://robfishermft.com/Rob's book: https://www.amazon.com/Experiential-Psychotherapy-Couples-Creative-Pragmatist-ebook/dp/B014JMZE96/ref=sr_1_1?dchild=1&keywords=rob+fisher+mft&qid=1586648062&sr=8-1Rob helps translate the body language in a television show:https://www.facebook.com/humannurturepodcast/videos/3630503223691208 

Human Nurture - Ep 11 - PACT in Theory - Rob Fisher on Somatic Therapy

"What really grounds PACT is its emphasis on Social Justice theory and the idea that couples must have a sense of purpose, a sense of meaning, a shared vision, a shared mythology for why they are together above and beyond the ephemeral and changeable elements such as new love, romantic love, attractions or common interests."This is Stan Tatkin, the founder of PACT talking about the importance of the foundational element of Social Justice within the PACT approach. In episode #10 (!) we talk to Catherine Ducommun-Nagy, who is an expert in Contexetual Therapy which brought the ideas of fairness, reciprocity and justice into clinical practice and theory. Catherine was married to the founder of Contextual therapy, Ivan Boszormenyi-Nagy who passed away in 2007 and she continues to expand and carry her late husbands work forward.The interview is full of Catherine's frankness, great sense of humor and deep understanding of social justice within the clinical setting and beyond. Here she is in her own words, “The definition of justice is inter-subjective, it comes from the dialogue and the real justice in couples or families would be if you are capable of accepting that the point of view of the other person is no less valid than yours. That becomes reciprocal." We are also joined by the Stan as we discuss the interview with Catherine and he helps us understand the importance of Social Justice Theory within PACT.Follow along of Facebook @humannurturepodcastTime-----00:00:00 - 00:03:19 -Jason Introduction00:02:00-00:24:26 - Jason and Stan Tatkin00:24:26-01:500:35 - Jason and Catherine Ducommun-Nagy 

Human Nurture - Ep 10 - PACT in Theory - Catherine Ducommun Nagy on Social Justice Theory

Over the past couple of weeks, we have all been living through a huge shift in our lives due to the outbreak of the Covid-19 virus.  For PACT therapists, this has meant moving our work as couples therapists from our offices to online.  For many of us, myself included, this has come with quite a bit of worry about the effectiveness of working online, about not being able to properly intervene when couples become dis-regulated and tracking my own self-regulation.  It was heartening to know that I wasn't alone with these worries when similar concerns were expressed on the PACT list serve by other PACT therapists.  A thoughtful and reassuring  response was written by long time PACT therapist, Jeff Pincus (see below) about how he approaches online sessions.  This bonus episode features Jeff and I discussing the shift to working online with our couples.  After the interview, I felt more grounded in my work, used many of the intervention strategies discussed and found myself having an easier time in my online sessions.  This all feels like a day-to-day operation at this point and things seem to go best with a combination of creating structure and taking deep breaths.  It certainly is an extraordinary and scary time and I hope you all are doing okay.   Jeff's website: https://couplestherapyboulder.com/wp/ Here is the original piece that Jeff wrote to the PACT community on the list serve. Hi Everyone, I thought that I would share my thoughts and experience on this topic. I am only addressing my clinical observations and thoughts, not any legal or technological issues associated with video sessions, and I will let others address those questions and concerns. For many years, I avoided doing couples sessions over video as I felt that the medium handicapped me from doing my best work. Video just felt too flat and less dimensional, which of course it is. My experience was that there were fewer data streams available for me to formulate the most effective assessments and interventions, and that my own somato-affective experience was a bit blunted. Over the years, I’ve found myself relying more and more on my counter-transference to formulate hypotheses, craft experiments, and initiate interventions; in a sense, using my whole body to my job.  Another limitation I found was that my ability to regulate partners when appropriate was more challenging. I would have to break my visual data stream of looking at the screen and observing what was going on in the client/couple, and intentionally look at the camera so that the partner experiences me as looking directly in their eyes. In that moment, I’m blind to what is actually happening, and the impact of my intervention. This technology problem is likely to be fixed someday soon, I hear.  I have had a few couples who maintained our working relationship over video more recently, and my observations after many sessions have been positive. I’ve noticed that the limited data streams have amplified my focus on the available streams in a manner that I wouldn’t do with couples in my office. I can stare closely at their faces and body movements in a manner that would be downright creepy in my office, so I’m able to pick up more information.  I’ve also noticed that when the lighting was poor for a moment due to changes in sunlight or the couples’ movement in relation to their lighting source, I would focus strongly on prosody alone, and hear more nuance because it was my only source of information. My thinking is that these data streams (signals) get amplified when there are fewer other streams of information (noise) coming into my processing system (mind/brain). This has to do with focusing on one thing instead of several things.  The other benefit that I saw is that I had to get even craftier in directing interactive regulation since I was out of the scene, and more distanced from the couple in every way. Often, I have them look at each other (as I do in my office) but I’m even more of a narrator and director as I’m a disembodied voice. This has benefits as it’s even more about THEM and less about me. My presence is further diminished and their presence is amplified with each other which can be very beneficial if you know how to direct them.  My final thought has to do with memory. So much of PACT and good experiential psychodynamic therapy and trauma therapy has to do with the re-consolidation of memory. As clinicians, we’re most effective at fostering trait change when we intervene in the problematic states that cause pain, limitation or dysfunction. Our goal is to create a new (state-specific) memory so that our client has the experience of another way, a better move, a more loving response, etc., when they find themselves in the same situation OUTSIDE the office. Working via video allows for place-specific memory. Ideally, the couple is in their home, which is usually the environment where they get in to trouble. Now, not only are we going to work with the problematic state, but we are doing it in the environment that can cue them (via memory and association) to try the new, better, more mature move.  I’m sure you’ve all had clients say how well they do in your office, yet it’s been hard to do it at home. Well, now we are making a virtual house call, and I believe that it will be easier to “do it at home” because they’re practicing at home. Environmental cues are powerful triggers for right brain, subcortical processes. Place does affect state. Personally, I am switching to video sessions for the time being. I believe that social distancing is the most responsible thing that I can do to help flatten the curve of lethality for COVID-19, which is especially important for the most vulnerable members of our society and us all.  I hope this was helpful. I wish you all safety and good health! Jeff

Human Nurture - Bonus Ep - PACT in Theory - Jeff Pincus on PACT Video Sessions

In episode 8 of Human Nurture, we explore PACT's core element of meditation with George Haas the founder of Mettagroup, a meditation center in Los Angeles. We are also joined by Stan Tatkin, the founder of PACT as he reflects on the interview with George and talks about the influence of meditation on PACT theory and practice.George's training and background could not provide a better bridge between PACT and meditation. He teaches Vipassanā (insight meditation) from a foundation of attachment theory and developmental neuroscience. Not only do we have all of this in common with George's teachings, he has also completed PACT level 1 and 2 training. Georges manages to do all of this with a mixture empathy and irreverence which makes for a fun and informative interview.Here is a taste of the way George makes attachment and neuroscience come to life through descriptions of the process of learning to be in the present moment.  "That is why we focus so much on getting people to mentalize their thought processes and understand that if you can be in the present moment and deal with the circumstances of the present moment you don’t need to have all of these afflictive thoughts driving the body into early aging."Follow along of Facebook @humannurturepodcastTime-----00:00:00 - 00:02:00 -Jason Introduction00:02:00-00:33:43 - Jason and Stan Tatkin00:33:45-01:30:29 - Jason and George HaasResources-----Metta Group (George's podcast can be found here)-  https://www.mettagroup.org/ Great interview on the 10% Happier Podcast with Shinzen Young (Stan and George's meditation teacher)-  https://podcasts.apple.com/ni/podcast/64-shinzen-young-meditation-teacher/id1087147821?i=1000382028850 

Human Nurture - Ep 8 - PACT in Theory - George Haas on Meditation

Special Bonus Episode- Jeff Zeig joins us again to talk about The Evolution of Psychotherapy Conference coming up in Anaheim, December 9-13, 2020.For more info on the conference: https://www.evolutionofpsychotherapy.com/

Human Nurture - Bonus Ep - PACT in Theory - Jeff Zeig on Evolution Conference

As PACT therapists we need to quickly organize a great deal of information within a reliable yet flexible structure while still remaining present with the action unfolding between the couple. In order to do this, we rely heavily on the theory and practice developed by family therapists. In this episode of The Human Nurture Podcast, we explore PACT's core element of family therapy in interviews with Sheri Glucoft Wong, LCSW and Stan Tatkin, MFT, PsyD..Sheri describes "being on her spot", which is an attitude and approach she has developed to working with families. Not only is it down to earth, action oriented and inclusive, it also acts as a model for parents. Sheri describes the role this way, "that combination of being clear in your message but also flexible and responsive to people is the key to having the most positive parenting relationship you can have. So we in the field have to model the same thing we are asking parents [to do] in their lives."Stan describes the formative experiences of his family therapy training and the ways PACT can be used with families. Stan and I discuss the interview with Sheri as a way to explore PACT concepts like; regulating the regulator, building a therapeutic alliance, differentiation, being in role and many more.On a personal note, this is a special episode because it features two of my mentors and it was quite a thrill to find so much overlap in their thinking and approach. As always, thank you for listening and I hope you enjoy the family therapy episode.Follow along of Facebook @humannurturepodcastTime-----00:00:00 - 00:06:15 -Jason Introduction0:06:15-01:04:45 - Jason and Sheri Glucoft Wong01:04:46-01:31:10 - Jason and Stan Tatkin Resources-----Great Virginia Satir Video- https://youtu.be/XZTgp4WzvzIGreat Carl Carl Whittaker Video- https://youtu.be/9LF5y6nfypgA blog post I wrote for PACT about working with parents to help kids--Joysticks and Controllers: Using PACT With Kids Who Use Video Games Obsessivelyhttps://stantatkinblog.wordpress.com/2017/06/18/joysticks-and-controllers-using-pact-with-kids-who-use-video-games-obsessively/Working with Families PACT Style- Blog post by Stan Tatkin - https://stantatkinblog.wordpress.com/2019/07/17/working-with-families-pact-style/  

Human Nurture Ep 6 - PACT in Theory - Sheri Glucoft Wong Interview

The difficulty of learning object relations theory, frustrates you and makes you feel like a bad therapist, however, if you listen to this episode it is an opportunity to get more comfortable with the theory and it’s clinical applications.You see what I did there? I used James Masterson’s intervention strategy (pain, self, defense) to encourage self activation.That’s right, it’s time for the core element of psychoanalytic theory from an American object relations perspective with a focus on James Masterson and disorders of the self. If that sounds like a mouthful, then you are in the right place because this 5th episode of the Human Nurture Podcast, Season 1- PACT in Theory, features lots of questions and knowledgeable guestsWe are joined by Loray Daws, PhD., who does a great job of making this challenging material relatable and accessible. Loray achieves this by striking a balance between theoretical descriptions and providing clinical and developmental examples. The episode starts off with an interview Stan Tatkin (the founder of PACT) who walks us through how object relations theory fits into PACT, his own experience learning and practicing the theory and he helps me get clear on the similarities and differences between object relations and attachment theories.What attracts so many of us to PACT is that it provides us with the skills and the conceptual understanding necessary to work with the most challenging of couples and in this episode, Loray and Stan describe a way of thinking and working that allows for the safety and containment necessary for this to take place.Time-----00:00:00 - 00:02:38 -Jason Introduction0:02:38-0:42:14 - Jason and Stan0:42:14-2:17:59 - Jason and Loray Daws Resources----Contemporary Psychotherapy-- Grandiosity and Perfection-- The Masterson Approach to Narcissistic Disorders of the Self--  Loray Dawshttp://www.contemporarypsychotherapy.org/volume-3-no-2-winter-2011/grandiosity-and-perfection/Contemporary Psychotherapy--Living between rewarding and withdrawing paradigms of experience -- The Mastersonian approach to the Borderline disorder of self -- Loray Dawshttp://www.contemporarypsychotherapy.org/volume-4-no-2-winter-2012/living-between-rewarding-and-withdrawing-paradigms-of-experience/?fbclid=IwAR1J3QbYSGIdA9dhzMMUgn4q4FzIlxDPh8otS3Nb0KsY6ualviodxhfOfBoContemporary Psychotherapy-- Is there anybody out there? -- The Mastersonian Approach to the Schizoid Dilemma--  Loray Dawshttp://www.contemporarypsychotherapy.org/volume-5-no-1-spring-2013/is-there-anybody-out-there/?fbclid=IwAR3Gt5BvX64X_6tCLyNgyKoECWtvxXQdyFgF9DGNM88d-iPAjgrZJljP40wTherapist's Guide to the Personality Disorders - Zeig Tucker- https://www.zeigtucker.com/product/therapists-guide-to-the-personality-disorders/ 

Human Nurture Ep 5 - PACT in Theory - Loray Daws Interview

In this 4th episode of the Human Nurture Podcast - Season 1 - PACT in Theory, we take a look into the core element of Gestalt Therapy. In the intro interview, Stan explains Gestalt's influence on PACT as, "the importance of discovery," "being in the present moment," and "staying within the intersubjective field." Our guest, Robert W. Resnick, PhD has a great to deal to say about the techniques and methodology of, "finding the freshest fish." Robert practiced with Fritz Perls (the founder of Gestalt Therapy) and was selected by Perlz to introduce Gestalt Therapy to Europe. For the past 40 years, Robert and his wife Rita Resnick, PhD., have been splitting their time between private practice and teaching in Santa Monica and leading Gestalt Therapy trainings in Europe. Robert does a wonderful job of explaining the theory behind Gestalt and provides practical insight into how to encourage and support a dialogue of discovery with our couples. Or as Robert puts it, "We are not trying to change to people, we are trying to support them in using who they are at the moment." Time-----0:00-0:01:30 - Jason Intro0:01:30-0:27:40 - Jason and Stan0:27:40-1:35:37 - Jason and Robert ResnickResources----Gestalt Association of Los Angeles:  www.Gatla.orgRobert Resnick's videos that are referenced in the episode: https://vimeo.com/ondemand/gestaltfilms

Human Nurture Ep 4 - PACT in Theory - Robert W. Resnick Interview

Episode 3 of the The Human Nature Podcast covers the core element of trance. It features Jeffrey Zeig, PhD and an introductory conversation about trance and PACT with Stan Tatkin. Jeff has an encyclopedic knowledge of not only hypnosis/trance but also the history and people that have created psychotherapy as we know it today. He is the perfect guide into the world of hypnosis which he describes as, "the mother of experiential approaches to psychotherapy."To borrow one of Jeff's words, this episode is "dense." Jeff references the mechanics of art, science, sports and the card game bridge to describe the underpinnings of trance states. With his help, we turn our attention to the ways PACT "promote[s] relational states" to evoke in couples the feelings and experiences of secure functioning.Time:Jason Into: 0:00-00:01:45Stan Interview: 00:01:50-00:36:30Jeffrey Zeig Interview: 00:36:36-0:1:37:08 Links:Erickson Foundation:  https://www.erickson-foundation.org/Jeffrey Zeig's website: http://jeffreyzeig.com/    

Human Nurture Ep 3 - PACT in Theory - Jeffrey Zeig Interview

Human Nurture - Season 1, is entitled, "PACT - In Theory" and will look at the foundational elements that make up the psychobiological approach to couples therapy.

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Human Nurture

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