On the podcast today we have a conversation all about inclusive design. In this episode, we break down what inclusive design is, why it matters, its historical evolution, core principles, and how website owners and designers can apply it to their own projects. We begin by discussing the fundamental nature of the web as a platform where, unlike the offline world, inclusivity can often be achieved at minimal cost simply by following standards, an opportunity the industry has too often overlooked. David shares insights from the Website Owner’s Manual, describing the “five pillars” behind building better sites, and why inclusive design sits at the top. We go on to explore how inclusive design goes beyond basic accessibility compliance, actively seeking out who might be excluded and working to remove those barriers, treating diversity as a default rather than an edge case. Nathan reflects on how the (often invisible) difficulties that people face online are less likely to be addressed due to a lack of visible cues and legal pressure. Corporate approaches from tech giants like Microsoft, Google, and Apple are discussed, along with the reality for smaller web professionals who might struggle to justify the investment. David argues that if web standards and good code are prioritised from the outset, inclusive websites don't have to create extra burdens. The conversation then turns to history, tracing the evolution from post-war “barrier-free design” to modern inclusive design, and how concepts like dignity and flexibility are at the heart of truly accessible user experiences. We try to unpack the ethical, reputational, and practical advantages for brands that embrace inclusivity, and point out that, often, what benefits people with specific access needs ends up benefiting everyone. Practical advice for website owners and designers follows, such as using semantic HTML, testing with real users and assistive technology, avoiding reliance on colour alone, and picking images and content that genuinely reflect a diverse audience. We caution against deceptive “dark patterns” and warn of the pitfalls of delegating too much to AI or generic page builders, emphasising the importance of human-centred design thinking. Throughout, the need for ongoing, collaborative practices is highlighted, inclusive design is a process, not a checkbox. We close with a reminder that, when done right, inclusive design not only costs less in the long run but pays dividends for everyone, users and creators alike. If you’ve ever wondered how to make your websites work better for everyone (and not just tick boxes), this episode will give you actionable insights, some history, and plenty to reflect on for your next project.

On the podcast today we have a conversation all about inclusive design.In this episode, we break down what inclusive design is, why it matters, its historical evolution, core principles, and how website owners and designers can apply it to their own projects.We begin by discussing the fundamental nature of the web as a platform where, unlike the offline world, inclusivity can often be achieved at minimal cost simply by following standards, an opportunity the industry has too often overlooked. David shares insights from the Website Owner’s Manual, describing the “five pillars” behind building better sites, and why inclusive design sits at the top.We go on to explore how inclusive design goes beyond basic accessibility compliance, actively seeking out who might be excluded and working to remove those barriers, treating diversity as a default rather than an edge case. Nathan reflects on how the (often invisible) difficulties that people face online are less likely to be addressed due to a lack of visible cues and legal pressure.Corporate approaches from tech giants like Microsoft, Google, and Apple are discussed, along with the reality for smaller web professionals who might struggle to justify the investment. David argues that if web standards and good code are prioritised from the outset, inclusive websites don't have to create extra burdens.The conversation then turns to history, tracing the evolution from post-war “barrier-free design” to modern inclusive design, and how concepts like dignity and flexibility are at the heart of truly accessible user experiences. We try to unpack the ethical, reputational, and practical advantages for brands that embrace inclusivity, and point out that, often, what benefits people with specific access needs ends up benefiting everyone.Practical advice for website owners and designers follows, such as using semantic HTML, testing with real users and assistive technology, avoiding reliance on colour alone, and picking images and content that genuinely reflect a diverse audience. We caution against deceptive “dark patterns” and warn of the pitfalls of delegating too much to AI or generic page builders, emphasising the importance of human-centred design thinking.Throughout, the need for ongoing, collaborative practices is highlighted, inclusive design is a process, not a checkbox. We close with a reminder that, when done right, inclusive design not only costs less in the long run but pays dividends for everyone, users and creators alike.If you’ve ever wondered how to make your websites work better for everyone (and not just tick boxes), this episode will give you actionable insights, some history, and plenty to reflect on for your next project.

No Script Show

Ep 31. Inclusive design

Ep 30. Content design

On the podcast today we have David Waumsley and Nathan Wrigley.David and Nathan are diving into the world of website owner’s manuals, a concept inspired by Paul Boag’s influential book, but brought firmly into the present day, with a focus on everyday website owners, small businesses, and web designers who care about empowering their clients.Drawing on decades of experience building and managing websites, David has crafted an in-depth, living document inside Canva (but designed to be platform-agnostic) that aims to give website owners a comprehensive guide for project management, strategic planning, and brand assets.If you’ve ever struggled with unclear communication between designer and client, or wished for more independence in managing your website, this episode is for you.David and Nathan discuss the evolution from classic brand style guides, documents focused primarily on logos and colours, to holistic website owner's manuals that cover business objectives, brand voice, technology choices, accessibility, and governance. Along the way, they revisit the lessons learned from early web design days and address the friction that so often arises between technical experts and business owners.They walk through the structure of David’s owner’s manual, over 50 pages and growing, detailing pipeline steps like mission and messaging, technology requirements, visual identity, and even legal and ethical considerations. This is not just theory, they share practical tips for real-time collaboration, asset management, and making the manual a valuable resource whether you’re starting your first one-page site or scaling up.If you want your web projects to start on the right foot, and avoid common pitfalls when building for yourself or your clients, you’ll find plenty of actionable advice in this episode. And if you’ve never created a style guide or website manual before, David and Nathan break down the whys and hows, helping you build more sustainable, maintainable, and independent online presences.Whether you’re a designer, a business owner, or simply interested in better website planning, this conversation will give you a roadmap for approaching digital projects with clarity and confidence. 00:00 Website Owner's Manual Concept05:45 "Platform-Agnostic Presentation Approach"07:53 Website Style Guide & Design Tools12:52 "Problem-Solving Before Product Building"15:43 Website Navigation & Client Guidance19:31 Document Structure Overview23:27 "Building Trust for Rankings"25:20 "Building a Clear Brand Identity"29:11 "Content & Voice Guidelines"32:48 Authentic Brand Voice Matters35:24 "Website Content and Writing Guidelines"37:54 Visuals: Complement, Not Replacement43:57 "Design Systems: Test and Simplify"46:34 "Accessible Web Design Priorities"49:50 Branding Across Platforms53:46 Website Analytics and Governance Insights54:36 Website Review and Compliance Tips58:01 "Creating a Central Resource Hub"

On the podcast today we have David Waumsley and Nathan Wrigley.David and Nathan are diving into the world of website owner’s manuals, a concept inspired by Paul Boag’s influential book, but brought firmly into the present day, with a focus on everyday website owners, small businesses, and web designers who care about empowering their clients.Drawing on decades of experience building and managing websites, David has crafted an in-depth, living document inside Canva (but designed to be platform-agnostic) that aims to give website owners a comprehensive guide for project management, strategic planning, and brand assets.If you’ve ever struggled with unclear communication between designer and client, or wished for more independence in managing your website, this episode is for you.David and Nathan discuss the evolution from classic brand style guides, documents focused primarily on logos and colours, to holistic website owner's manuals that cover business objectives, brand voice, technology choices, accessibility, and governance. Along the way, they revisit the lessons learned from early web design days and address the friction that so often arises between technical experts and business owners.They walk through the structure of David’s owner’s manual, over 50 pages and growing, detailing pipeline steps like mission and messaging, technology requirements, visual identity, and even legal and ethical considerations. This is not just theory, they share practical tips for real-time collaboration, asset management, and making the manual a valuable resource whether you’re starting your first one-page site or scaling up.If you want your web projects to start on the right foot, and avoid common pitfalls when building for yourself or your clients, you’ll find plenty of actionable advice in this episode. And if you’ve never created a style guide or website manual before, David and Nathan break down the whys and hows, helping you build more sustainable, maintainable, and independent online presences.Whether you’re a designer, a business owner, or simply interested in better website planning, this conversation will give you a roadmap for approaching digital projects with clarity and confidence.00:00 Website Owner's Manual Concept05:45 "Platform-Agnostic Presentation Approach"07:53 Website Style Guide & Design Tools12:52 "Problem-Solving Before Product Building"15:43 Website Navigation & Client Guidance19:31 Document Structure Overview23:27 "Building Trust for Rankings"25:20 "Building a Clear Brand Identity"29:11 "Content & Voice Guidelines"32:48 Authentic Brand Voice Matters35:24 "Website Content and Writing Guidelines"37:54 Visuals: Complement, Not Replacement43:57 "Design Systems: Test and Simplify"46:34 "Accessible Web Design Priorities"49:50 Branding Across Platforms53:46 Website Analytics and Governance Insights54:36 Website Review and Compliance Tips58:01 "Creating a Central Resource Hub"

Ep 29. Making a website owners manual

UntitledAre you a small business owner thinking about getting a website? In this episode, David Waumsley and Nathan Wrigley break down the real traps and trade-offs of using no code website builders versus hand coding your site. - How the commercial website builder market is taking over—and what that means for business owners- The surprising decline of hand-coded websites and why HTML still matters- The hidden costs and limitations of using platforms like Wix and Squarespace- A practical walkthrough of building a simple one-page business site from scratch- Why simplicity, clear messaging, and owning your code can set you apart from the competition Want to avoid vendor lock-in and make smarter website choices? Dive in for actionable advice and real-world examples.

UntitledAre you a small business owner thinking about getting a website? In this episode, David Waumsley and Nathan Wrigley break down the real traps and trade-offs of using no code website builders versus hand coding your site.- How the commercial website builder market is taking over—and what that means for business owners- The surprising decline of hand-coded websites and why HTML still matters- The hidden costs and limitations of using platforms like Wix and Squarespace- A practical walkthrough of building a simple one-page business site from scratch- Why simplicity, clear messaging, and owning your code can set you apart from the competitionWant to avoid vendor lock-in and make smarter website choices? Dive in for actionable advice and real-world examples.

Ep 28. Trap or Trade off What small businesses should know before getting a website

This episode looks into how platforms lure us in, lock us down, and extract value from everyone and how small, independent websites can push back. What this episode covers The 3 stages of Enshittification (Cory Doctorow’s framework applied to web platforms)Real‑world examples: Facebook, Amazon, Google How interoperability was intentionally broken and antitrust was weakened The hidden human labour and exploitation behind “AI magic” The rise and hangover of vibe coding (Karpathy, YC, GitClear findings) Why AI‑generated codebases are brittle and hard to maintain Tim Berners‑Lee, the fight to keep the web in public ownership, and why the web is for everyone Practical ways web designers and developers can reclaim agency: Static sites and the “dumb web” IndieWeb and POSSE (Publish on your Own Site, Syndicate Elsewhere) Using AI as a tool, not a master If you’ve been feeling uneasy about AI hype, social media, and the state of the modern web, this episode might help connect the dots and point to a healthier, more human direction for making websites. Mentioned in this episode Cory Doctorow – Enshittification: Why Everything Suddenly Got Worse and What to Do About It Karen Hao – Empire of AI: Dreams and Nightmares in Sam Altman’s OpenAI Yanis Varoufakis – Technofeudalism Tim Berners‑Lee – This Is for Everyone Ed Zitron – Better Offline (podcast & newsletter) Carl Brown – Internet of Bugs (YouTube channel) IndieWeb & POSSE (Publish on your Own Site, Syndicate Everywhere)

This episode looks into how platforms lure us in, lock us down, and extract value from everyone and how small, independent websites can push back. What this episode coversThe 3 stages of Enshittification (Cory Doctorow’s framework applied to web platforms)Real‑world examples: Facebook, Amazon, GoogleHow interoperability was intentionally broken and antitrust was weakenedThe hidden human labour and exploitation behind “AI magic”The rise and hangover of vibe coding (Karpathy, YC, GitClear findings)Why AI‑generated codebases are brittle and hard to maintainTim Berners‑Lee, the fight to keep the web in public ownership, and why the web is for everyonePractical ways web designers and developers can reclaim agency:Static sites and the “dumb web”IndieWeb and POSSE (Publish on your Own Site, Syndicate Elsewhere)Using AI as a tool, not a masterIf you’ve been feeling uneasy about AI hype, social media, and the state of the modern web, this episode might help connect the dots and point to a healthier, more human direction for making websites.Mentioned in this episodeCory Doctorow – Enshittification: Why Everything Suddenly Got Worse and What to Do About ItKaren Hao – Empire of AI: Dreams and Nightmares in Sam Altman’s OpenAIYanis Varoufakis – TechnofeudalismTim Berners‑Lee – This Is for EveryoneEd Zitron – Better Offline (podcast & newsletter)Carl Brown – Internet of Bugs (YouTube channel)IndieWeb & POSSE (Publish on your Own Site, Syndicate Everywhere)

Ep27. Enshittification. Why We Need Independent Websites.

On the podcast today we have David Waumsley and Nathan Wrigley.David and Nathan have been helping local businesses build websites for years, gaining insight into the world of digital marketing and the challenges faced by small business owners, from vets and accountants to electricians and therapists. In this episode, they turn their attention to Google Ads, demystifying pay-per-click advertising for those new to it. With the rapid shift from traditional marketing, think local papers and radio, to digital options, spending your marketing budget wisely is more important than ever.David begins by sharing his experiences supporting clients as they navigate Google Ads: requests to set up tracking scripts, questions about campaign managers, and a recent odd appointment with Google’s own support team. There’s skepticism, are Google’s new beginner-friendly moves as helpful as they seem? As Google adapts to challenges in its search dominance, the duo explore what this means for newcomers.Nathan and David then break down the landscape. Why is Google so powerful? What do statistics about return on investment actually mean, and why do most small businesses lose money? They discuss the differences between traditional and digital marketing, explaining why driving more traffic is pointless unless your offer really connects.Using the story of Bob Smith, a landscape gardener, they illustrate common mistakes, like sending ad traffic to generic homepages and neglecting the power of targeted messaging and landing pages. They contrast this with the marketing-savvy approach of Bob’s wife, Mary, who uses landing pages, keyword research, urgency, and lower-risk conversion options to boost results.The conversation digs deeper into Google Ads practicalities: negative keywords, location targeting, conversion tracking, and why “set it and forget it” just doesn’t work. There’s talk of budgets and timelines, and the importance of time and skill regardless of whether you DIY or hire an expert, along with the red flags to look for if you do.Finally, David and Nathan round off with a checklist for getting started: optimise your Google Business profile, learn about local service ads, invest in onsite SEO, and always start by clarifying your business problem before jumping in.If you’re a local business owner, or guiding one through the world of online advertising, this episode is packed with actionable advice, real-world stories, and critical perspectives on how to avoid costly mistakes with Google Ads.

On the podcast today we have David Waumsley and Nathan Wrigley.David and Nathan have been helping local businesses build websites for years, gaining insight into the world of digital marketing and the challenges faced by small business owners, from vets and accountants to electricians and therapists. In this episode, they turn their attention to Google Ads, demystifying pay-per-click advertising for those new to it. With the rapid shift from traditional marketing, think local papers and radio, to digital options, spending your marketing budget wisely is more important than ever.David begins by sharing his experiences supporting clients as they navigate Google Ads: requests to set up tracking scripts, questions about campaign managers, and a recent odd appointment with Google’s own support team. There’s skepticism, are Google’s new beginner-friendly moves as helpful as they seem? As Google adapts to challenges in its search dominance, the duo explore what this means for newcomers.Nathan and David then break down the landscape. Why is Google so powerful? What do statistics about return on investment actually mean, and why do most small businesses lose money? They discuss the differences between traditional and digital marketing, explaining why driving more traffic is pointless unless your offer really connects.Using the story of Bob Smith, a landscape gardener, they illustrate common mistakes, like sending ad traffic to generic homepages and neglecting the power of targeted messaging and landing pages. They contrast this with the marketing-savvy approach of Bob’s wife, Mary, who uses landing pages, keyword research, urgency, and lower-risk conversion options to boost results.The conversation digs deeper into Google Ads practicalities: negative keywords, location targeting, conversion tracking, and why “set it and forget it” just doesn’t work. There’s talk of budgets and timelines, and the importance of time and skill regardless of whether you DIY or hire an expert, along with the red flags to look for if you do.Finally, David and Nathan round off with a checklist for getting started: optimise your Google Business profile, learn about local service ads, invest in onsite SEO, and always start by clarifying your business problem before jumping in.If you’re a local business owner, or guiding one through the world of online advertising, this episode is packed with actionable advice, real-world stories, and critical perspectives on how to avoid costly mistakes with Google Ads.

Ep26. Google Ads for Local Businesses. Avoid costly mistakes.

Nathan Wrigley and David Waumsley are the hosts of the No Script Show, and in this episode, they’re diving into the vast topic of website forms.Forms, as they point out, are what make the web interactive, without them, you can’t do things like search, comment, shop online, or even book an appointment. But adding forms, especially to static websites, can be a lot more involved than it first appears.They start by sharing their personal journeys and frustrations with forms, both as web developers and as people helping clients with website interactivity. They discuss the explosion in the number of static and hybrid sites, and the need for third-party form solutions if you’re not using a dynamic platform like WordPress. The conversation ranges from specific client expectations, like the belief that ‘if you build a booking form, bookings will magically come’, to why forms can be both a blessing and a pain to administer.They unpack when you might actually need a form, and look into some eye-opening statistics about contact forms, such as how they typically convert much less than direct clickable emails or phone numbers.Along the way, Nathan and David look at alternatives to forms, like WhatsApp links and website chat, and why simply putting a phone number on the site could sometimes be the best UX decision of all.For those who do need a form, the hosts provide an overview of the different options available, from DIY setups using third-party endpoints like FormSpark, all the way up to full-featured SaaS form builders such as Jotform, Paperform, and Tally. They touch on accessibility, cost, performance, spam issues, and how keeping things simple can often be the smartest move.If you want to understand the real value, challenges, and modern choices for website forms, whether you run static sites, work with WordPress, or are helping clients decide what’s best, this episode is for you.

Nathan Wrigley and David Waumsley are the hosts of the No Script Show, and in this episode, they’re diving into the vast topic of website forms.Forms, as they point out, are what make the web interactive, without them, you can’t do things like search, comment, shop online, or even book an appointment. But adding forms, especially to static websites, can be a lot more involved than it first appears.They start by sharing their personal journeys and frustrations with forms, both as web developers and as people helping clients with website interactivity. They discuss the explosion in the number of static and hybrid sites, and the need for third-party form solutions if you’re not using a dynamic platform like WordPress. The conversation ranges from specific client expectations, like the belief that ‘if you build a booking form, bookings will magically come’, to why forms can be both a blessing and a pain to administer.They unpack when you might actually need a form, and look into some eye-opening statistics about contact forms, such as how they typically convert much less than direct clickable emails or phone numbers.Along the way, Nathan and David look at alternatives to forms, like WhatsApp links and website chat, and why simply putting a phone number on the site could sometimes be the best UX decision of all.For those who do need a form, the hosts provide an overview of the different options available, from DIY setups using third-party endpoints like FormSpark, all the way up to full-featured SaaS form builders such as Jotform, Paperform, and Tally. They touch on accessibility, cost, performance, spam issues, and how keeping things simple can often be the smartest move.If you want to understand the real value, challenges, and modern choices for website forms, whether you run static sites, work with WordPress, or are helping clients decide what’s best, this episode is for you.

Ep25. Form options for static websites

This is the fourth episode in our ongoing series about the different components that make up a website, and today we’re diving deep into the world of testimonials, block quotes, pull quotes, and the cite element, and why so many of us are probably coding them all wrong.Nathan and David take a look at how these quote elements are handled from technical, design, accessibility, and SEO perspectives. Inspired by resources like Kevin Powell’s “Is HTML the Hardest Language?” and the work of Hayden Pickering, they set out to demystify the (often confusing) specifics of semantic HTML, particularly around quotes and citations.We start with the basics: where quotes show up, be it testimonials for credibility, comments for engagement, or pull quotes for stylistic flair, and debate what pull quotes really are. Then, they walk through the evolution of HTML specifications, the ongoing confusion around the best markup for quotations, and how expert voices like Hayden Pickering and Adrian Roselli suggest different, sometimes contradictory approaches to structuring quotes, citations, and testimonials.You’ll learn why using blockquote for pull quotes isn’t recommended, and why the cite element doesn’t always do what you think, or anything useful at all. David and Nathan talk through common patterns for testimonials (with author images, company names, and more), how to structure them for maximum meaning and accessibility, and why major platforms like WordPress often stray from the specification.The episode also covers the practicalities: how to rationalise your code, how to use article and aside elements when appropriate, and even touches on the perennial pull quote debate, are they worth the trouble (especially for screen readers and responsive layouts)?If you’ve ever wondered how to properly mark up quotes and testimonials in your HTML, and how to future-proof your work for accessibility and SEO, this episode is for you.

This is the fourth episode in our ongoing series about the different components that make up a website, and today we’re diving deep into the world of testimonials, block quotes, pull quotes, and the cite element, and why so many of us are probably coding them all wrong.Nathan and David take a look at how these quote elements are handled from technical, design, accessibility, and SEO perspectives. Inspired by resources like Kevin Powell’s “Is HTML the Hardest Language?” and the work of Hayden Pickering, they set out to demystify the (often confusing) specifics of semantic HTML, particularly around quotes and citations.We start with the basics: where quotes show up, be it testimonials for credibility, comments for engagement, or pull quotes for stylistic flair, and debate what pull quotes really are. Then, they walk through the evolution of HTML specifications, the ongoing confusion around the best markup for quotations, and how expert voices like Hayden Pickering and Adrian Roselli suggest different, sometimes contradictory approaches to structuring quotes, citations, and testimonials.You’ll learn why using blockquote for pull quotes isn’t recommended, and why the cite element doesn’t always do what you think, or anything useful at all. David and Nathan talk through common patterns for testimonials (with author images, company names, and more), how to structure them for maximum meaning and accessibility, and why major platforms like WordPress often stray from the specification.The episode also covers the practicalities: how to rationalise your code, how to use article and aside elements when appropriate, and even touches on the perennial pull quote debate, are they worth the trouble (especially for screen readers and responsive layouts)?If you’ve ever wondered how to properly mark up quotes and testimonials in your HTML, and how to future-proof your work for accessibility and SEO, this episode is for you.

Ep24. Don't quote us on this!

This is the third episode in the series exploring the different components that make up a website, and today’s focus is on the often-overlooked but vitally important head element in HTML.Nathan and David kick things off by admitting that, like many web professionals, they haven’t thought deeply about the head for quite some time, despite its massive impact on performance, accessibility, and SEO. Drawing from their own experiences as CMS users and enthusiasts, they dig into what the head is, the key tags you can (and must) use, and which practices are still essential in modern web development.They cover everything from the basic meta tags you need for setting character encoding, viewport scaling, and page titles, to why the order of scripts and styles in your head can dramatically affect site speed and user experience. David explains some of the technical nuances, like choosing between inline styles and external stylesheets and recent updates that now allow for SVG favicons with light and dark mode support, thanks to the latest version of Safari.They also discuss SEO considerations, such as canonical tags, language declarations, and social sharing metadata, along with hands-on tips to help you validate your sites and avoid common mistakes, like using special characters in titles that may trip up screen readers or search engines.If you build or maintain websites and haven’t recently double-checked your head element, this episode is well worth your time.By the end, Nathan and David will have you rethinking and refreshing your approach to the head of your HTML, ensuring you’re setting up your sites for the best possible technical, SEO, and accessibility outcomes.

This is the third episode in the series exploring the different components that make up a website, and today’s focus is on the often-overlooked but vitally important head element in HTML.Nathan and David kick things off by admitting that, like many web professionals, they haven’t thought deeply about the head for quite some time, despite its massive impact on performance, accessibility, and SEO. Drawing from their own experiences as CMS users and enthusiasts, they dig into what the head is, the key tags you can (and must) use, and which practices are still essential in modern web development.They cover everything from the basic meta tags you need for setting character encoding, viewport scaling, and page titles, to why the order of scripts and styles in your head can dramatically affect site speed and user experience. David explains some of the technical nuances, like choosing between inline styles and external stylesheets and recent updates that now allow for SVG favicons with light and dark mode support, thanks to the latest version of Safari.They also discuss SEO considerations, such as canonical tags, language declarations, and social sharing metadata, along with hands-on tips to help you validate your sites and avoid common mistakes, like using special characters in titles that may trip up screen readers or search engines.If you build or maintain websites and haven’t recently double-checked your head element, this episode is well worth your time.By the end, Nathan and David will have you rethinking and refreshing your approach to the head of your HTML, ensuring you’re setting up your sites for the best possible technical, SEO, and accessibility outcomes.

Ep23. Are we right in the head?

On the podcast today, we’re joined by Paul Lacey.Paul has been working in web design and development since 1999, and in that time he’s witnessed the evolution of the industry from the early days without CSS, through the dot-com boom, to the modern era of design systems. He’s put together his own design systems for professional and client work, and brings first-hand, practical experience to our chat. Paul joins our regular hosts, Nathan Wrigley and David Waumsley, to help demystify what “design systems” actually are, and why they might matter to all of us, not just the largest organisations.We kick things off by uncovering the surprisingly varied definitions of design systems, including perspectives from the Nielsen Norman Group and Figma. The conversation quickly turns to what design systems look like in real-world settings: are they just libraries of reusable components, or do they go deeper than the visual layer to include things like code, documentation, and accessibility?Paul, David, and Nathan talk through the differences between style guides, design tokens, component libraries, and pattern libraries, and where the lines between them blur. We touch on how design systems operate in organisations of all sizes, from solo freelancers to giant institutions like the UK government, and how the goal of a design system isn’t just making things look good, but improving collaboration, maintaining consistency, and supporting accessibility.If you’ve ever wondered how to get started with a design system, whether to build your own or adapt an off-the-shelf solution, or why some systems succeed while others become overly complex, this episode is for you. We also talk about the long-term benefits and pitfalls: does consistency stifle creativity? How do design systems need to evolve alongside technology? And how do they stay resilient in an ever-changing industry?If you’re curious about design systems—or want to build more efficient, accessible, and lasting websites—this episode is packed with insights, practical tips, and plenty of honest stories about what happens when theory meets practice.

On the podcast today, we’re joined by Paul Lacey.Paul has been working in web design and development since 1999, and in that time he’s witnessed the evolution of the industry from the early days without CSS, through the dot-com boom, to the modern era of design systems. He’s put together his own design systems for professional and client work, and brings first-hand, practical experience to our chat. Paul joins our regular hosts, Nathan Wrigley and David Waumsley, to help demystify what “design systems” actually are, and why they might matter to all of us, not just the largest organisations.We kick things off by uncovering the surprisingly varied definitions of design systems, including perspectives from the Nielsen Norman Group and Figma. The conversation quickly turns to what design systems look like in real-world settings: are they just libraries of reusable components, or do they go deeper than the visual layer to include things like code, documentation, and accessibility?Paul, David, and Nathan talk through the differences between style guides, design tokens, component libraries, and pattern libraries, and where the lines between them blur. We touch on how design systems operate in organisations of all sizes, from solo freelancers to giant institutions like the UK government, and how the goal of a design system isn’t just making things look good, but improving collaboration, maintaining consistency, and supporting accessibility.If you’ve ever wondered how to get started with a design system, whether to build your own or adapt an off-the-shelf solution, or why some systems succeed while others become overly complex, this episode is for you. We also talk about the long-term benefits and pitfalls: does consistency stifle creativity? How do design systems need to evolve alongside technology? And how do they stay resilient in an ever-changing industry?If you’re curious about design systems—or want to build more efficient, accessible, and lasting websites—this episode is packed with insights, practical tips, and plenty of honest stories about what happens when theory meets practice.

Ep22. Are design systems worth it?

On the podcast today, David and Nathan are back with the second episode in their new series, where they break down the key components that make up a website. Today, they’re talking about website navigation, and asking the surprisingly sticky question: why is it so bloody awful?David has done a deep dive into the ins and outs of navigation, putting together an exhaustive list of all the pieces involved. Nathan admits he used to take a much simpler approach, just add the top-level links and hope Google did the rest, but David’s research proves there’s a lot more going on beneath the surface.They start by exploring the shifting meaning of terms like “menu,” “navigation,” and “nav,” both from a developer and a user’s perspective. Is it a noun? Is it a verb? Is it a technical role? As they discovered, even big names in UX like the Nielsen Norman Group can’t seem to agree.From there, they walk through the many different types of website navigation: main links, hamburger menus, even on desktop, breadcrumbs, dropdowns (on hover or click), mega menus, and more. And it’s not just the styles that are confusing, there’s a tangle of terminology too, with “dropdowns,” “flyouts,” and “pull downs” meaning different things to different people.David and Nathan share their frustrations with modern navigation: hidden menu items, ambiguous links, and the accessibility pitfalls of complicated dropdowns. They talk about why menus can be especially tricky on mobile, and how easy it is for even pros to get lost in their own site’s nav. David explains his approach of keeping things simple, stopping at HTML and CSS wherever possible, and only grudgingly adding JavaScript when absolutely needed.They then explore the design, SEO, and accessibility issues that come with modern navigation patterns: from accidentally hiding important links from both users and Google, to building mega menus that are impossible to navigate by keyboard, to the sheer overwhelm of too many choices.The conversation is packed with real-world frustrations, rants about hover-based menus, and practical tips on creating accessible, user-friendly website navigation. If you’ve ever been baffled by your own website’s menu, or just want to build smarter, simpler navigation that works for everyone, this episode is for you.

On the podcast today, David and Nathan are back with the second episode in their new series, where they break down the key components that make up a website. Today, they’re talking about website navigation, and asking the surprisingly sticky question: why is it so bloody awful?David has done a deep dive into the ins and outs of navigation, putting together an exhaustive list of all the pieces involved. Nathan admits he used to take a much simpler approach, just add the top-level links and hope Google did the rest, but David’s research proves there’s a lot more going on beneath the surface.They start by exploring the shifting meaning of terms like “menu,” “navigation,” and “nav,” both from a developer and a user’s perspective. Is it a noun? Is it a verb? Is it a technical role? As they discovered, even big names in UX like the Nielsen Norman Group can’t seem to agree.From there, they walk through the many different types of website navigation: main links, hamburger menus, even on desktop, breadcrumbs, dropdowns (on hover or click), mega menus, and more. And it’s not just the styles that are confusing, there’s a tangle of terminology too, with “dropdowns,” “flyouts,” and “pull downs” meaning different things to different people.David and Nathan share their frustrations with modern navigation: hidden menu items, ambiguous links, and the accessibility pitfalls of complicated dropdowns. They talk about why menus can be especially tricky on mobile, and how easy it is for even pros to get lost in their own site’s nav. David explains his approach of keeping things simple, stopping at HTML and CSS wherever possible, and only grudgingly adding JavaScript when absolutely needed.They then explore the design, SEO, and accessibility issues that come with modern navigation patterns: from accidentally hiding important links from both users and Google, to building mega menus that are impossible to navigate by keyboard, to the sheer overwhelm of too many choices.The conversation is packed with real-world frustrations, rants about hover-based menus, and practical tips on creating accessible, user-friendly website navigation. If you’ve ever been baffled by your own website’s menu, or just want to build smarter, simpler navigation that works for everyone, this episode is for you.

Ep21. Website Navigation Why is it so bloody awful?

On the podcast today we have the usual suspects - Nathan Wrigley and David Waumsley.This is the first in a new series where Nathan and David take a deep dive into different website components - today’s focus is on accordions. You know the ones: those hide-and-show sections you often see on FAQ pages, product details, or anywhere there’s a need to tidy up lots of information into collapsible panels. But what makes an accordion actually a good solution for your site, and when does it start to get in the way?Nathan and David kick things off by defining what an accordion is (with a nod to the UX authorities and the W3C) - and clarifying, with a bit of humour, what does and does not count as an accordion out in the wild. They look at the types of accordions - exclusive, non-exclusive, and toggle - and discuss how these patterns got established in web design.They also reflect on their own use (and sometimes overuse) of accordions in client work, especially handy within page builders, and how their thinking has changed as the web’s evolved.Then it’s onto the technical side: the code needed. David explains why, until recently, JavaScript was essential for accessible accordions, but now, thanks to advances in HTML (details and summary elements), CSS (with exciting new features like interpolate size), and improved browser support, you can build robust accordions without a single line of JavaScript - plus some important gotchas and accessibility considerations to watch for.They round things off by discussing when accordions add value - helping reduce overwhelm and improve scanability (is that a word?!) - and when they can cause problems, like increasing "interaction cost," fragmenting information, or raising accessibility and SEO concerns. There are design details to consider, as well as practical recommendations for ensuring your accordions are friendly for both users and search engines.And if you want to see these concepts put into practice, the episode is paired with a follow-up video where David and Nathan demonstrate real code snippets and examples at noscript.show/learn/12.If you’ve ever wondered whether you’re using accordions for the right reasons, how to build them the modern way, or want a clearer picture of their pros and cons - you won’t want to miss this episode. Timestamps:00:00 Accordion Design and Definition06:22 FAQ Page Building Approach07:52 HTML-Only Accordions Evolve12:04 "Content Organization: Pros and Cons"13:47 Logitech Product Page Analysis16:56 "Accordion Utility in CMS Design"22:02 Browser Styling Challenges and Limitations24:49 Schema Markup for FAQs27:43 "Purpose of Hiding FAQ Content"29:56 "New Development Wrap-Up"

On the podcast today we have the usual suspects - Nathan Wrigley and David Waumsley.This is the first in a new series where Nathan and David take a deep dive into different website components - today’s focus is on accordions. You know the ones: those hide-and-show sections you often see on FAQ pages, product details, or anywhere there’s a need to tidy up lots of information into collapsible panels. But what makes an accordion actually a good solution for your site, and when does it start to get in the way?Nathan and David kick things off by defining what an accordion is (with a nod to the UX authorities and the W3C) - and clarifying, with a bit of humour, what does and does not count as an accordion out in the wild. They look at the types of accordions - exclusive, non-exclusive, and toggle - and discuss how these patterns got established in web design.They also reflect on their own use (and sometimes overuse) of accordions in client work, especially handy within page builders, and how their thinking has changed as the web’s evolved.Then it’s onto the technical side: the code needed. David explains why, until recently, JavaScript was essential for accessible accordions, but now, thanks to advances in HTML (details and summary elements), CSS (with exciting new features like interpolate size), and improved browser support, you can build robust accordions without a single line of JavaScript - plus some important gotchas and accessibility considerations to watch for.They round things off by discussing when accordions add value - helping reduce overwhelm and improve scanability (is that a word?!) - and when they can cause problems, like increasing "interaction cost," fragmenting information, or raising accessibility and SEO concerns. There are design details to consider, as well as practical recommendations for ensuring your accordions are friendly for both users and search engines.And if you want to see these concepts put into practice, the episode is paired with a follow-up video where David and Nathan demonstrate real code snippets and examples at noscript.show/learn/12.If you’ve ever wondered whether you’re using accordions for the right reasons, how to build them the modern way, or want a clearer picture of their pros and cons - you won’t want to miss this episode.Timestamps:00:00 Accordion Design and Definition06:22 FAQ Page Building Approach07:52 HTML-Only Accordions Evolve12:04 "Content Organization: Pros and Cons"13:47 Logitech Product Page Analysis16:56 "Accordion Utility in CMS Design"22:02 Browser Styling Challenges and Limitations24:49 Schema Markup for FAQs27:43 "Purpose of Hiding FAQ Content"29:56 "New Development Wrap-Up"

Ep20. Website accordions the good the bad and the ugly

On the podcast today David Waumsley and Nathan Wrigley discuss some of the things that they've done well, and not so well over their 20 years as web site builders.David kicks off by reflecting on some common missteps: not fully understanding the nature of the web, getting distracted by new tools and dependencies, and forgetting the basic tenets of good markup and accessibility.He and Nathan talk about the importance of simple, semantic HTML first, focusing on communication before aesthetics, and the recurring struggle with over-complicating even the most basic sites.From there, they examine why recurring revenue is essential for freelancers, how face-to-face and honest communication with clients can be a superpower, and why being agile, building projects around the client rather than forcing the client into a predefined 'system', can be transformational.The episode is full of candid admissions and practical insights: David talks about his ongoing battle to minimise dependencies and keep his projects hand-off ready, the value of welcoming all kinds of clients/projects (even friends and family), and why he’s moved away from selling websites as self-contained 'products' towards offering them as ongoing, collaborative communication tools.Finally, Nathan and David lay out their plan for the future of the show: a practical series focused on building up a library of reusable website 'components', demonstrating not just how to write cleaner code, but how to think about user experience, accessibility, and long-term maintainability.If you want to become a better freelance web designer, or just want to hear what two experienced freelancers wish they’d done differently, this episode is for you. Timestamps: 00:00 Revisiting Web Design Fundamentals03:50 "Web Evolution and Future Trends"09:37 From HTML Learner to WordPress Builder10:23 Tech Complexity: Unnecessary Dependencies16:22 Balancing Solo Work and Agility19:24 Website Maintenance Challenges23:13 Early Web Development Business Growth26:10 Human Connection as Future Asset30:22 Misconceptions in Page Builder Circles33:23 "The Value of Being a Generalist"35:57 Prioritizing Content and Efficiency37:34 Streamlined Approach to Optimization

On the podcast today David Waumsley and Nathan Wrigley discuss some of the things that they've done well, and not so well over their 20 years as web site builders.David kicks off by reflecting on some common missteps: not fully understanding the nature of the web, getting distracted by new tools and dependencies, and forgetting the basic tenets of good markup and accessibility.He and Nathan talk about the importance of simple, semantic HTML first, focusing on communication before aesthetics, and the recurring struggle with over-complicating even the most basic sites.From there, they examine why recurring revenue is essential for freelancers, how face-to-face and honest communication with clients can be a superpower, and why being agile, building projects around the client rather than forcing the client into a predefined 'system', can be transformational.The episode is full of candid admissions and practical insights: David talks about his ongoing battle to minimise dependencies and keep his projects hand-off ready, the value of welcoming all kinds of clients/projects (even friends and family), and why he’s moved away from selling websites as self-contained 'products' towards offering them as ongoing, collaborative communication tools.Finally, Nathan and David lay out their plan for the future of the show: a practical series focused on building up a library of reusable website 'components', demonstrating not just how to write cleaner code, but how to think about user experience, accessibility, and long-term maintainability.If you want to become a better freelance web designer, or just want to hear what two experienced freelancers wish they’d done differently, this episode is for you.Timestamps:00:00 Revisiting Web Design Fundamentals03:50 "Web Evolution and Future Trends"09:37 From HTML Learner to WordPress Builder10:23 Tech Complexity: Unnecessary Dependencies16:22 Balancing Solo Work and Agility19:24 Website Maintenance Challenges23:13 Early Web Development Business Growth26:10 Human Connection as Future Asset30:22 Misconceptions in Page Builder Circles33:23 "The Value of Being a Generalist"35:57 Prioritizing Content and Efficiency37:34 Streamlined Approach to Optimization

Ep19. Becoming a better freelance web designer

On the podcast today Nathan and David explore changes in the world of web technology, with a particular focus on CSS and front-end development.They’re taking a step back to look at where CSS is heading, and in particular, how the rise of “programmatic CSS” is shifting the landscape for developers, designers, and anyone building for the web.If you feel overwhelmed by the sheer volume of new CSS specifications, features, and ideas, things like inline if statements, new functions, and increasingly dynamic capabilities, then you’re not alone.David shares his experience coming from a more traditional, declarative CSS background, and how the influx of new, more “programming-like” CSS features can make even the most confident among us feel lost at sea.Nathan and David begin by reflecting on their own experiences learning programming, and how the evolution of CSS is blurring the lines between a simple presentational language and a more robust toolset for web design. They talk about what actually constitutes a programming language, how the nature of CSS is changing, and why this matters for anyone used to building sites with page builders or more traditional CSS workflows.As the episode unfolds, they discuss the impact of these new CSS capabilities on everything from browser support to page builder UIs, to the continued importance of clear communication and content-first design.Along the way, they touch on topics like CSS generators, the roles of standards bodies like the W3C, and the practical realities of adopting new CSS features at different skill levels.Towards the end of the episode, they look at how these changes might shape the job market for front-end developers and designers, and what it will mean for agencies, clients, and those teaching themselves how to build for the web.If you’ve been hearing about “programmatic CSS,” feeling bewildered by the speed of change, or just want to get a sense of where things are heading and what skills might be important for the web’s next chapter, this episode is for you.

On the podcast today Nathan and David explore changes in the world of web technology, with a particular focus on CSS and front-end development.They’re taking a step back to look at where CSS is heading, and in particular, how the rise of “programmatic CSS” is shifting the landscape for developers, designers, and anyone building for the web.If you feel overwhelmed by the sheer volume of new CSS specifications, features, and ideas, things like inline if statements, new functions, and increasingly dynamic capabilities, then you’re not alone.David shares his experience coming from a more traditional, declarative CSS background, and how the influx of new, more “programming-like” CSS features can make even the most confident among us feel lost at sea.Nathan and David begin by reflecting on their own experiences learning programming, and how the evolution of CSS is blurring the lines between a simple presentational language and a more robust toolset for web design. They talk about what actually constitutes a programming language, how the nature of CSS is changing, and why this matters for anyone used to building sites with page builders or more traditional CSS workflows.As the episode unfolds, they discuss the impact of these new CSS capabilities on everything from browser support to page builder UIs, to the continued importance of clear communication and content-first design.Along the way, they touch on topics like CSS generators, the roles of standards bodies like the W3C, and the practical realities of adopting new CSS features at different skill levels.Towards the end of the episode, they look at how these changes might shape the job market for front-end developers and designers, and what it will mean for agencies, clients, and those teaching themselves how to build for the web.If you’ve been hearing about “programmatic CSS,” feeling bewildered by the speed of change, or just want to get a sense of where things are heading and what skills might be important for the web’s next chapter, this episode is for you.

Ep18. Programmatic CSS. Where is this going?

On the podcast today, we have Paul Lacey, an experienced UK designer deeply entrenched in the world of WordPress. With years of experience working with agencies and clients, Paul will help us tackle the question: should we be offering clients a Content Management System (CMS)?Paul brings a wealth of knowledge, having transitioned from a small agency owner to a freelance web consultant. He focuses on building websites and consulting, steering clear of marketing but fully embracing the technological side. We delve into the challenges and decisions surrounding the use of CMSs like WordPress, how they have influenced the design process over the years, and whether or not they are necessary for clients.We discuss the practical aspects of offering a CMS: managing content, user permissions, and dealing with the demands and constraints that often come with these systems. Paul shares his experiences navigating these waters, working with both direct clients and agencies, and his thoughts on where the industry might be headed.If you've ever grappled with the decision of whether to integrate a CMS into your workflow or simply offer bespoke solutions to your clients, this episode will provide you insight and perspective on the evolving landscape of web design and development.

On the podcast today, we have Paul Lacey, an experienced UK designer deeply entrenched in the world of WordPress. With years of experience working with agencies and clients, Paul will help us tackle the question: should we be offering clients a Content Management System (CMS)?Paul brings a wealth of knowledge, having transitioned from a small agency owner to a freelance web consultant. He focuses on building websites and consulting, steering clear of marketing but fully embracing the technological side. We delve into the challenges and decisions surrounding the use of CMSs like WordPress, how they have influenced the design process over the years, and whether or not they are necessary for clients.We discuss the practical aspects of offering a CMS: managing content, user permissions, and dealing with the demands and constraints that often come with these systems. Paul shares his experiences navigating these waters, working with both direct clients and agencies, and his thoughts on where the industry might be headed.If you've ever grappled with the decision of whether to integrate a CMS into your workflow or simply offer bespoke solutions to your clients, this episode will provide you insight and perspective on the evolving landscape of web design and development.

Ep17. Should we be offering clients a CMS?

A show for people who build websites. A podcast on modern frontend web design where we look at what we can build today with minimal dependencies and skills. We're building this website as part of the show.

A show for people who build websites. A podcast on modern frontend web design where we look at what we can build today with minimal dependencies and skills. We're building this website as part of the show.

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