Dr. Jamil El-Imad is the CEO of The Brain Forum, a neuroscience, brain-computer interface (BCI), and virtual reality (VR) research foundation in Switzerland, as well as the founder of Neuroco, a commercial company whose goal is to bring affordable brain signaling software to the public. He is also an honorary research fellow at Imperial College London, and a former IBM software engineer. His key interests include BCI, VR, brain signal analyses, and big data, all of which we delve into in this interview. Having been out for many years now, most people are probably familiar with virtual reality technology. However, brain-computer interfaces (also known as a neural-control interface), bridges the gap between our mind and a machine by converting brain signals into commands that can be interpreted by a computer, resulting in the desired action. The potential for this technology is profound and could be applied in myriad fields. In “Connecting Our Brains to the World”, we discuss Dr. El-Imad’s decision to transition from software engineering to a neuroscience focus. Neuroscience is a fascinating field in which research can be taken in many directions. We inquire about Dr. El-Imad’s interest in deep learning (ex. epilepsy prediction), and the limiting factors in brain-computer interactions. Further, the topic of healthcare is explored in some depth, in particular the lag in the healthcare industry’s adoption of seemingly very useful tools and the administrative, logistical, and technological hurdles cutting-edge interfacing technology faces before becoming mainstream. Continuing on this topic, the inequities between the rich and the poor are also explored, as evidenced by the pandemic. In a similar vein, virtual reality also holds promise in the healthcare industry; for example, in the treatment of phobias. We ask our guest what he thinks the development of VR will look like in the future, including the democratization and commercialization of the technology as well as the value from an entertainment standpoint. We hope you enjoy this episode listening to an episode on the human connection to the machine, and that it provokes deeper thought and discussion on what is possible in this realm of neuroscience.

Policy Punchline

Jamil El-Imad: Connecting Our Brains to the World

Toni Townes-Whitley graduated from Princeton University in 1985 with a B.A. in Public Policy and Economics. She then went to the peace corps for three years in Gabon. With a non-tech background, she went on to become the President of the IT and business consulting services firm CGI Federal and presently the President of US Regulated Industries at Microsoft. She leads Microsoft's U.S. sales for Regulated Industries (Financial Services & Insurance; Healthcare & Life Sciences; Federal, State, & Local Government; and Education). Her teams drive digital transformation across national industries and focus on inclusion, equity and access in the emerging digital economy. She is one of the leading women at Microsoft and in the technology industry. Her role at Microsoft is shaping the role that artificial intelligence and technology will play in systems like policing, education, the U.S. military, and more, especially since the U.S. government is one of Microsoft’s leading clients particularly through the use of its Azure cloud services. In this episode, we dive into the intersection of tech development and race, innovation, and ethics and hear Toni’s perspectives on digital transformation. She started off by talking about how she ended up at her position at Microsoft and why she chose to work in regulated industries at Microsoft. She focused on the ability for her work in building tech infrastructure to shape the world we live in. Toni said, “the [regulated industries] is probably the hardest set of sectors to work in terms of designing towards a much more complex set of requirements, but it is also the most meaningful because when you get it right, you have an impact that not only affects the industry but generally affects society at large.” Throughout the interview, Toni emphasizes the importance of a mission-oriented framework to any institution, from the peace corps to Microsoft to government technology initiatives. Toni then moves into talking about key lessons learned from the Covid-19 pandemic in relation to digital transformation in the sectors of education, healthcare, financial services, and more. She speaks on the emergence of cloud-based technology particularly in the sector of government and the ways in which it enables predictive capabilities, deep analytics, and stronger security. She then spends time talking through the relationship between Microsoft and the U.S. government. She talks about how Microsoft’s relationship with the U.S. government spans from providing VR technology to transform training for the Department of Defense to using Microsoft Azure cloud services to keep information secure. Toni concludes by sharing her reflections on the importance of an ethics framework in developing new technologies, which Microsoft developed, that have been adopted by governmental and non-governmental organizations across the world.

Toni Townes-Whitley: Digital Transformation in Government and Ethics of Innovation

Mitch Julis is the Co-Founder and Co-Chairman of Canyon Partners, one of the largest and best-performing multi-strategy hedge funds in the world. If you listen to the end of our interviews or visit our website, you’ll see that Policy Punchline is generously funded by the Julis-Rabinowitz Center for Public Policy and Finance (JRCPPF) at Princeton University. The Center was created by Mr. Julis and named in honor of his father and mother. After 150 episodes, we’re finally having Mitch on the show, and everything is truly coming back in full circle here. We start the interview with an introduction to Canyon Partners and Mitch’s background. “You can’t be a great equity investor without being a solid credit analyst” – Mitch gives a detailed overview to credit investing, Canyon’s various strategies and funds, and his overarching investment philosophy. We also touch on many of the macro trends before and after Covid, the Federal Reserve’s “insurance policy” for financial markets with persistently low interest rates, the rise of SPACs and Bitcoin, and many more current event topics and beyond. One of the interview highlights is Mitch’s explanation of “reframing financial and economic analysis as political economy to understand how structure determines behavior and behavior determines structure in the capital markets.” To illustrate how to cope with complex situations, he brings up Canyon’s recent investment in AMC Theatres during the company’s struggle in the Covid pandemic, as well as their previous investment in Caesar Entertainment. He also A recent book published in April 2021, “The Caesars Palace Coup: How a Billionaire Brawl Over the Famous Casino Exposed the Corruption of the Private Equity Industry,” by Sujeet Indap and Max Frumes talks about the Caesars Entertainment restructuring, which Mitch referenced a few times throughout the interview and recommends those who are interested to read more. Mitch co-founded Canyon Partners in 1990 with Josh Friedman after his old firm Drexel Burnham Lambert was closed. Canyon subsequently flourished into one of the best-performing hedge funds in the world over the last three decades, growing into various strategies from distressed credit to CLOs and real estate. Disclaimer by Canyon Partners, LLC: • This presentation does not constitute an offer or solicitation to subscribe for or purchase any securities in any jurisdiction. • Certain information contained herein constitutes “forward-looking statements.” Due to various risks and uncertainties, actual events or results may differ materially from those reflected or contemplated in such forward-looking statements. • Nothing contained in this presentation constitutes investment advice or offers any opinion with respect to the suitability of any security or asset class, and the views expressed in this presentation should not be taken as advice to buy, sell or hold any security or asset class. • Any representative investment or strategy described herein is for illustrative purposes to describe a type of investment Canyon either has acquired or, opportunity permitting, may acquire in the future. Such descriptions are summary in nature and do not purport to list all the salient features of the investment or the strategy described. There is no guarantee that similar opportunities will be available for a fund in the future, or that a fund will acquire further investments of the type described in such summaries. • Canyon has numerous other investments – successful and not successful. An investment profiled in this presentation may not be held by all Canyon funds. It is not known whether any position(s) currently held will be profitable when sold. • Past performance of an investment, strategy, or fund is not a guarantee of future results. • This presentation may contain confidential information and shall not be redistributed without the express written consent of Canyon Partners, LLC.

Mitch Julis: Credit Investing in Covid, Complex Systems, and How Structure Determines Behavior

Paul G. Haaga Jr. is the former acting CEO of NPR, the former chairman and director of Capital Research and Management Company, and the Chairperson of the Facebook Oversight Board Trust. In this episode, we welcome back Mr. Haaga Jr. to Policy Punchline to discuss Facebook's recent decision on deplatforming former U.S. President Donald J. Trump.

Paul Haaga Returns: A Deep Dive Into Facebook Oversight Board and Deplatforming Trump

Paul G. Haaga Jr. is the former acting CEO of NPR, the former chairman and director of Capital Research and Management Company, and the Chairperson of the Facebook Oversight Board Trust.

Paul Haaga on Leading NPR and the Threats to Public and Local Journalism

Tim Roughgarden is a Professor of Computer Science at Columbia University and a winner of the Gödel Prize, which is often considered as “the Nobel Prize of theoretical computer science.” His research interests include the many connections between computer science and economics, as well as the design, analysis, applications, and limitations of algorithms. We’ll also talk about his most recent research in the cryptocurrency space, EIP-1559, and the future of Ethereum. Prof. Roughgarden has been awarded the ACM Grace Murray Hopper Award, the Presidential Early Career Award for Scientists and Engineers, the Kalai Prize in Computer Science and Game Theory, the Social Choice and Welfare Prize, the Mathematical Programming Society's Tucker Prize, and the Gödel Prize in theoretical computer science. He was an invited speaker at the 2006 International Congress of Mathematicians, the Shapley Lecturer at the 2008 World Congress of the Game Theory Society, and a Guggenheim Fellow in 2017. He has written or edited ten books and monographs, and is regarded by many students as one of the best educators in algorithmic game theory.

Tim Roughgarden: Gödel Prize Winner and Trailblazer from Algorithmic Game Theory to EIP-1559

My guest today is someone of great personal significance to me. He is my senior thesis advisor and one of the most important mentors in my student career. Atif Mian is the John H. Laporte, Jr. Class of 1967 Professor of Economics, Public Policy and Finance at Princeton University, and the Director of the Julis-Rabinowitz Center for Public Policy and Finance, which has graciously supported this podcast since day one. Prof. Mian studies the connections between finance and the macroeconomy, and his book House of Debt became an instant international bestseller when it was published in 2014 and kicked off a critical line of research related to debt forgiveness and risk-sharing mechanisms. He is the first person of Pakistani origin to rank among the top 25 young economists of the world by the IMF.

Atif Mian: Fixing the Imbalance of Global Macrofinance

Matt Levine writes the popular daily newsletter “Money Stuff” on Bloomberg Opinion that has over 150,000 subscribers and a “cult-like” following on Wall Street and beyond. He is widely regarded as one of the most iconic, witty, and sophisticated financial writers of our age. Before Bloomberg, Matt was an editor of Dealbreaker, an investment banker at Goldman Sachs, a mergers and acquisitions lawyer, a law clerk for the U.S. Court of Appeals for the 3rd Circuit, and a high school Latin teacher. He holds a heroic status especially amongst college economics majors, and he in fact inspired Tiger to start writing his newsletter on Substack.

Matt Levine: King of *The* Financial Newsletter

Alex Tabarrok is Bartley J. Madden Chair in Economics at the Mercatus Center and a professor of economics at George Mason University. Along with Tyler Cowen, he is the co-author of the popular economics blog Marginal Revolution and co-founder of Marginal Revolution University. He is the author of numerous academic papers in the fields of law and economics, criminology, regulatory policy, voting theory and other areas in political economy. He is co-author with Tyler of Modern Principles of Economics, a widely used introductory textbook. He gave a TED talk in 2009. His articles have appeared in the New York Times, the Washington Post, the Wall Street Journal, and many other publications. It is not an exaggeration to say that he and Tyler Cowen wield an enormous influence over the intellectual discourse today in America, and especially amongst the Silicon Valley entrepreneurs.

Alex Tabarrok: Fractional Dosing Vaccine, Libertarianism in COVID, and the Great Tech Stagnation

Ramesh Ponnuru is a columnist for Bloomberg Opinion, senior editor with the National Review, and a visiting fellow at the American Enterprise Institute. A leading conservative thinker and pundit, Ramesh has made numerous appearances on shows like Meet the Press and Face the Nation. He is also an alumnus of Princeton, earning a degree in History. In the interview, we discuss a variety of issues relating to the current political landscape and state of partisan politics. We first dive into free speech issues at colleges and universities in the United States— grappling with some of the key considerations that are informing why environments on college campuses are less encouraging for interchange and compromise between ideological groups. Ponnuru argues that the free speech issues on college campuses are not a new problem and have continued to ebb and flow based on larger political movements, pushing back against the catastrophizing done by organizations like Turning Point USA. Ponnuru also explains his thoughts on media environments and the curating of news by social media companies. Because Ponnuru writes so extensively about economic and social issues, we cover his stance on the American family, including his continued advocacy for a child tax credit and overall increased welfare for parents and children. Ponnuru also explains why he believes his pro-life stance is consistent with the Constitution. We move to discuss Ponnuru’s opposition to President Trump, the contention over election security and the threat of delegitimization of the political process, and his thoughts on the infusion of populism and isolationism into the GOP.

Ramesh Ponnuru on American Conservatism’s Crossroads

Anthony (Tony) Yoseloff is the Executive Managing Member and Chief Investment Officer of Davidson Kempner Capital Management, one of the world’s largest alternative asset managers with more than $37 billion in assets under management. Tony graduated from Princeton University in 1996 with a B.A. from the School of Public and International Affairs. He then received a JD and MBA from Columbia University where he was awarded the John M. Olin Fellowship in Law and Economics. Tony joined Davidson Kempner in 1999. While most graduates at the time pursued opportunities in technology – given the dot-com boom – an early career in investment management enabled Tony to use both his finance and legal skills, appealing to his intellectual curiosity. Over the next two decades, Davidson Kempner grew to be a powerhouse – building out additional investment strategies while expanding its headcount and geographic footprint. Tony became a Managing Member in 2004 and co-head of the firm alongside Tom Kempner in 2018, establishing a robust foundation for a seamless leadership transition in 2020. However, Tony jokes that when he took over as the sole Executive Managing Member and Chief Investment Officer of the firm in January 2020, Tom forgot to leave him the playbook on “global pandemics.” “There was a model in my head for how to deal with a financial crisis, but the Covid-19 pandemic was just something nobody had a playbook for,” Tony said. Tony had navigated a large portfolio through the global financial crisis in 2008, the European crisis in 2011, and the Euro debt crisis in 2015. He had also been at the firm during the Long-Term Capital Management crisis in 1998, as well as during the Enron scandal and the U.S. stock market crashes between 2000 and 2002. Tony talks about how he and his team guided the firm through the pandemic, the Firm’s success in bringing people back to the office, the Firm’s increased focus on supporting mental, physical and emotional health, and how to sustain a culture of excellence within a growing global organization. Outside of investing, Tony engages in a wide variety of philanthropic endeavors. He is a member of the Board of Trustees of Princeton University, The New York Public Library and Leadership Enterprise for a Diverse America. He also serves on the investment committee of The New York Public Library and is a member of the Board of Directors of PRINCO, the investment manager of the Princeton University endowment.

Tony Yoseloff: Sustaining Excellence at Davidson Kempner and Supporting Equality in Education

David McCormick is the CEO of Bridgewater Associates, the world’s largest hedge fund with over $140 billion in assets under management. David joined Bridgewater in 2009 and was President and Co-CEO before becoming CEO in 2020. Prior to Bridgewater, he was the US Treasury Under Secretary for International Affairs in the George W. Bush Administration during the 2008 global financial crisis, and he also had senior roles on the National Security Council and in the Department of Commerce. In this interview, David talks about his personal journey from the Army to the Treasury and Bridgewater; the ten-year leadership transition that he and Ray Dalio had just completed; the challenges he experienced when managing Bridgewater over the years; macro-financial topics such as Bridgewater’s “Monetary Policy 3” framework; and his vision for a “national innovation policy” allowing for more frontier civilian technology to enter the military space. Bridgewater is a place that needs very little introduction, especially as founder Ray Dalio’s bestselling book Principles has become not only a nordstar for corporate managers, but also a household read. David tells us about Bridgewater’s distinct culture of radical transparency, critical thinking, and various other principles established by Dalio and how these principles were put to test during the transition process. David transitioned from Co-CEO to CEO of Bridgewater in 2020, which marked the end of a long leadership transition (Ray had kicked off this “ten-year transition” back in 2010). David recalls that he had taken on various management roles in earlier years as the President of the fund, but initially did not do a very good job. Ray eventually asked him to come back as Co-CEO and later as the sole CEO, and it was a long process with many challenges. We ask David how he plans on maintaining the firm’s distinctive culture and Principles, especially when Ray has departed. David explains that going forward, the members of Bridgewater will continue to do a lot of soul searching and find the best way to combine Ray’s wisdom with new thinking that needs to be integrated into the firm’s DNA. It will not be a static or rigid process, but rather one that is nuanced, dynamic, and collaborative. David speaks quite frankly about the fund’s recent drawdowns and underperformance compared to the broader market. He says that Bridgewater has always bounced back stronger after brief periods of drawdowns and that these difficult moments have only made the fund stronger. In his recent Gilbert Lecture at Princeton, David made two arguments about military innovation today: 1) the “line between civilian technology and military technology is more blurred than ever,” and 2) the military needs to create a culture of experimentation and bring in new entrants, and create the right incentives for people to move up the risk curve. He elaborates on these ideas and proposes his vision for a “national innovation policy.” In light of the rising tension between China and the U.S., should American firms and Western countries at large reconsider their dependence and interconnectedness with China? Ray has frequently spoken about Asia being the new frontier for investments given the Western developed world now suffers from historically low interest rates and comparatively lower economic growth. Bridgewater has also recently opened new offices in China and raised new funds from local investors. Why is Bridgewater so active in China when the geopolitical risks and ideological division are at an all-time high? We ask David whether he is concerned about Bridgewater’s potential exposure to geopolitical risks. Lastly, David explains why he believes the U.S. is now at an inflection point – what the U.S. does next will be very important for the future of America’s role in the world. What does he think this role should be? And is David more optimistic or pessimistic in the country’s ability to confront these challenges?

Bridgewater CEO David McCormick: Dalio's Transition, Macro Uncertainty, National Innovation Policy

Professor Ikenberry is the Albert G. Milbank Professor of Politics and International Affairs at Princeton University in the Department of Politics and the School of Public and International Affairs. He is one of the most notable scholars in the entire field of international relations, with an expansive body of work spanning countless books, journals, essays, working at think tanks, advisory groups, and more. In this interview, Princeton freshmen Ryan Vuono and Neal Reddy discuss with Professor Ikenberry the theory of liberal internationalism, lessons from the history of international orders, and the future of the liberal international framework. Considering that Professor Ikenberry is a leading proponent of the liberal internationalist school of thought within international relations, we start off the interview asking the basic questions for our listeners: what is liberal internationalism, and what does Professor Ikenberry’s vision of liberal internationalism look for today’s international climate. We move to discuss some of the themes of the book-- the fact that liberal internationalism is fluid in nature, which Professor Ikenberry acknowledges can serve to be both beneficial and deceptive, in that liberal internationalist governments have historically become involved in colonial and imperialist exploitation of the Global South under the guise of free trade. Ikenberry makes clear that while liberal internationalism has become a guise for neoliberal economics, fundamentally it should be a form of international relations that seeks to promote welfare as a more general idea, rather than optimizing economic output. In the interview, we also reflect on the geopolitical trends since the dissolution of the Soviet Union in the early 1990s. While many scholars predicted a United States-led global hegemony and an indefinite stasis of world politics, we’ve seen the rise of populist, both left and right, as a form of backlash to neoliberalism and globalization. Professor Ikenberry sees the recent trends as a rebuke to the idea of realist international relations theory, of which he is a critic. However, he also concedes that the overly liberalized trade that occurred in the 1990s and 2000s that fomented these political movements was highly ignorant of what he sees as prerequisites for liberal internationalism-- a country’s ability to ensure the social welfare of its citizens. Without this credibility, liberal internationalism has lost its credibility among many voters worldwide, but Professor Ikenberry is hopeful that with a return to the roots of social democracy as is occurring in the United States after the COVID-19 pandemic, liberal internationalism can return and the world, in his mind, will be better for it.

John Ikenberry - A World Safe for Democracy: Liberal Internationalism and the Crises of Global Order

William Bohnett is the Chair of the Advisory Board of the Smithsonian Environmental Research Center. He served from 2009-2018 as a member of the National Board of the Smithsonian Institution, the world’s largest museum and research complex. Bill sits on the Executive Committee of the U.S. Council on Competitiveness, a non-partisan NGO working on national competitiveness issues, and is a Board Member of American Forests, the nation’s oldest conservation organization. Mr. Bohnett is the President of Whitecap Investments, a private investment firm, and special advisor to Baroda Ventures, an early-stage venture capital firm. This interview was conducted by Princeton freshman Sullivan Meyer and senior Tiger Gao. We start by briefly discussing Mr. Bohnett’s educational background at Princeton and career path. He cites the interdisciplinary education he received at Princeton’s School of Public and International Affairs as a huge aid to his career, especially as a corporate lawyer. Going off of that experience, we address the green financial market, especially the need to mobilize private capital to address the climate crisis. Bohnett does believe that the private sector requires some motivation to move capital from the public sector, but he views the Biden Administration’s American Jobs Plan as a strong start. Fascinatingly, he views the current bubble amassing around green technology as quite analogous to the “Dot Com” bubble of 1999. He notes, however, that the companies that weathered that bubble—as well as the companies that formed after it, like Google—went on to build the future. He encourages us to “have them courage to look through” the crash “that’s coming.” We then move on to address upcoming green technologies, such as electric vehicles (EVs) and small- and medium-sized nuclear reactors (SMRs). Bohnett sees both as integral to the climate future, so we discussed the intricacies of both technologies with him. For instance: How will the US adapt to its dependence on Chinese lithium mining? Will the public become more accepting of SMRs than large nuclear reactors? When asked about whether these technologies will dominate the transportation and energy industries of the future, Bohnett stresses an inclusive approach to the green transition. For instance, a green transportation industry will require both mass transit and EVs. Similarly, a future energy market will need SMRs, large reactors, and renewable energy. Above all, he expresses confidence that private capital and the market will properly assess what technologies are needed, and in what amount they are needed. This conversation is far-ranging, touching on many other aspects of Mr. Bohnett’s career. For instance, we discuss green technologies in relation to China, reflecting his position with the Council of Competitiveness. We address the importance of tree- and green space-restoration, based on his experience with American Forests. We explore the significance of public institutions in relation to the Smithsonian Institution. Finally, Mr. Bohnett offers his punchline: The climate crisis is a huge, incredibly nuanced challenge facing all aspects of modern life. Accordingly, no one technology, policy, or business is a silver bullet to address the climate crisis. There is no silver bullet, but there is an oncoming wave of climate adaptation and mitigation strategies coming from all corners of the global economy. We should have hope.

The Path to Net-Zero: Modular Nuke, Electric Vehicle, and Patient Capital in Green Tech

Matt Weinberg is an assistant professor of Computer Science at Princeton University. His primary research interest is in Algorithmic Mechanism Design: auction design, cryptocurrency, voting system, and more.

Matt Weinberg: A Mechanism Designer’s View on Cryptocurrency, Incentives, Trust, and Human Nature

Weekly updated interviews with scholars, business executives, and policy makers on policy-related issues and simply our world today! Sponsored by the Julis-Rabinowitz Center for Public Policy and Finance at Princeton University. Hosted by Tiger Gao '21. Visit us on policypunchline.com

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