Spiritual director and author Alice Fryling believes aging is an invitation from God to embrace our limitations and discover fruitfulness and transformation in unexpected places. Show Notes[2:13] What was it like for you to write this book?[5:07] As you’ve been aging, what has been happening in your soul?[7:56] It’s interesting that the idea of living within our limitations is seen as a negative and something to be fought. Is part of aging learning to live within the limitations that have now presented themselves?[9:58] As you are talking about your limitations, you’re smiling. How have you gotten to that place where this is not something to be fought and hated, but embracing where you’re at?[14:29] In the book you talk about productivity and fruitfulness. Can you share about those things?[17:51] Do you have a word for folks who are really struggling with navigating aging?[25:57] Why do we fight growing older?[27:52] You wrote a book on the Enneagram. How is that helpful in aging?Resources Aging Faithfully: The Holy Invitation of Growing Older, by Alice Fryling Mirror for the Soul: A Christian Guide to the Enneagram, by Alice Fryling Alice's Website 

Renovaré Podcast with Nathan Foster

Alice Fryling — Aging Faithfully

How do we thoughtfully monitor and moderate our consumption of media? How can we fill our minds with what is good and beautiful rather than simply go to media to escape? This episode with Paul Patton—author, playwright, and professor emeritus at Spring Arbor—dives into these questions.Show Notes[2:38] I really liked the subtitle you guys came up with for the book. The book is Everyday Sabbath: How to Lead Your Dance with Media and Technology in Mindful and Sacred Ways. It’s a wonderful way to say everything that’s in the book. Tell us a little about the book.[6:32] Could you unpack a little when you say “dance with pop culture?”[8:27] Part of what I’m hearing in this dance is to be intentional, to not be a victim. How have you learned to take the lead in the dance?[9:45] So if I conclude that I’m scrolling through stuff for reward or relief, does that mean I stop?[11:00] One of the things I appreciate about the book is that this is road tested. The other piece I found helpful is the practices. Could you talk a little bit about how spiritual practices tie into our dance with pop culture?[18:53] Do we know how to steward our boredom?[20:10] Historically, when has the term binge ever been positive?[22:08] A while back we did a podcast on your habit of memorizing, of stewarding the stirrings of your soul. Are you still doing this?Resources Everyday Sabbath: How to Lead Your Dance with Media and Technology in Mindful and Sacred Ways, by Paul Patton and Robert Woods, Jr. Renovaré Podcast Episodes with Paul Patton: Leading the Dance with Pop Culture, Story and the Importance of Memorization, We All Have Secrets Soul Stirrings Podcast with Paul Patton 

Paul Patton — Redeeming the Moment You're In

In this week’s episode of the Renovaré Podcast, Nathan talks with Charles Moore, of Plough Publishing, about his upcoming book, Following the Call: Living the Sermon on the Mount Together.Show Notes[2:55] Why is the Sermon on the Mount so important to you at the Bruderhof community?[7:18] Tell me a little about your process of making decisions about what to put in the book and what not to.[10:40] I I'm a little embarrassed to admit that I have failed to grasp how this really was spoken to community and meant to be lived out in community. I'm really curious to hear what that looks like for you guys to try and live this out, and practically, day to day what this looks like.[14:55] In compiling all the essays, were there new insights that you gained personally or different ways in which you begin to see the sermon on the Mount?[19:05] Do you have a favorite?[21:08] Give me your hope for readers. What is your hope for this book?[24:00] Could you let people know a little about Plough? Resources Following the Call: Living the Sermon on the Mount Together Bruderhof Community 

Charles Moore — Living the Sermon on the Mount Together

Nathan Foster talks with Rich Villodas, lead pastor of New Life Fellowship in Queens, New York, about his book The Deeply Formed Life, which is the first selection of the 2021-22 Renovaré Book Club.Show Notes[2:08] Your church has a logo of an iceberg. What’s that about?[4:28] Tell us about your book, The Deeply Formed Life.[8:03] Could you talk about each section of the book? Contemplative Practices Racial Justice and Reconciliation Sexual Wholeness Missional Presence [28:12] How was writing this book helpful for you?Resources The Deeply Formed Life Renovaré Book Club 

Rich Villodas — The Deeply Formed Life

In this edited version of a June 2021 webinar conversation, spiritual directors and authors Trevor Hudson and Jan Johnson talk with Carolyn Arends about Christian spiritual direction. They contrast it with counseling, discuss if it's for everyone, and recommend where to find a director. For spiritual direction resources and the full unedited replay, visit the webinar page. Browse previous Renovaré Podcast conversations with Jan Johnson and Trevor Hudson 

Trevor Hudson and Jan Johnson — What Is Spiritual Direction?

In this talk from the 1999 Renovaré International Conference in Houston, following an entertaining introduction by James Bryan Smith, Richard Foster outlines the practical means by which we grow in grace.

Richard Foster — The Ways and Means of Grace

Jill Weber is a prayer missionary and author who for the last five years has been establishing a new monastic community at the Waverley Abbey Estate in the U.K. Her desire is to cultivate "thin spaces" where Jesus is loved. Show Notes[1:48] Could you share with us about the project you’ve been working on for the past 5 years?We’re working on establishing a prayer community/monastic community at the Waverley Abbey Estate in the U.K. It’s the site of the first Cistercian Monastery in the U.K. There has been prayer on this estate for over 1000 years. We are at the beginnings of building what we believe is going to become a mother house for the 24/7 Prayer movement for the lay ecumenical religious order called the Order of the Mustard Seed. We want to create a place where Jesus is loved.[5:37] Tell us about Order of the Mustard Seed.The original OMS was founded in 1716 in Eastern German by a handful of friends who shared commitments and practices that would hold them to faithfulness to Jesus and the Gospel, commitments which included a praying community that started a prayer meeting that went on for over 100 years. 24/7 Prayer is all about prayer and mission and justice. So they dug up that mustard seed in 2005, and took vows to be true to Christ, kind to people, and take the Gospel to the nations. Like every other religious order, we’re trying to live into the Gospel n a particular way. We’ve taken six practices - prayer and creativity, mission and justice, hospitality and learning – and shaped our lives around those. It’s for regular people in their day-to-day lives. ﻿ [10:18] How do you live into it? What does it look like for you personally to hold those practices and values in front of you.I’m a monastic, a prayer missionary, so this is my vocation. My days are shaped by rhythms of prayer. We’re all over the world, and realized that we can get on zoom and pray. When COVID first hit, we set four times a day to pray together, these prayer watches. I also exercise my creativity in creating this new monastic community. Hospitality is a vital practice for us, creating space for God and for others. We offer spiritual direction to groups and individuals, which is hospitality as well. We do work around justice – taking seriously the creation mandate to love the world we’ve been given, and also work addressing racial injustice.[14:27] It sounds like an idyllic life.When our lives are small and we’re concerned only with our immediate environment, we don’t get touched by the suffering of others. I’ve found it difficult personally this year to be surrounded by it. We’re carrying it every day. I said this week on the Lectio 365 app, “Instead of talking to God about your problems, talk to your problems about God.” To get declarative as say, “This is the Lord, this is what he can do. He is the God of the heavens and earth. He can do anything.” But at other times I just feel the weight of other people’s crosses as I daily bear one another’s burdens and so fulfill the law of Christ. And it costs.I also pioneered a new monastic community in Canada in a little steel town outside Toronto. The first 2 or 3 years was so hard – everything that could go wrong went wrong. Pioneering is extremely costly. Yes, especially when people are involved. But Jesus asked me to, and I said yes, and trust that there is a joy set before me down the road.[18:30] It’s a noble calling to enter into the suffering of others.We’re all invited to. If we look at the way of Jesus, it was a descending way. He came down entered into it right with us. The invitation is always to cruciform love. Are you willing to stretch yourself out, open yourself up, give yourself freely, knowing that it’s going to cost you.[19:38] What do you say to people who are carrying a lot and not having room to go beyond their own family or the struggles that they are in?I did a 2-year program with Ruth Haley Barton at the Transforming Center, and she introduced me to a mode of intercession where you just hold people in the presence of God in the place of stillness. This is where contemplative pray, solitude and silence, are so important. I don’t have the magical incantation prayer that is going to fix everything. But I can hold people in his presence. My most common prayer is, “Come Lord Jesus, Maranatha.”[21:36] A friend of mine (Bill Vaswig) taught me much about prayer. When I go into certain spaces where there is so much suffering, and I’m just overwhelmed by it and don’t know what to do, he said, “Nate, you’re supposed to pray. You see all this so you can pray. Just walk around and lift them up.”The other thing that helps me is worship. Coming into the presence of Jesus and just look at who he is and declaring his beauty and his strength helps with so many things, gives us the right perspective. It lifts the burden – we don’t have to know what to do, because he knows what to do; we don’t need to be the one to fix because we can’t. He is the only one who can. It’s his presence that changes everything.[24:10] It makes such a difference when there are others involved. It’s one thing to do this on your own, but it’s something else when you have a community or a couple of people that are inviting you to take some time.A lot of times in COVID my get up and go got up and left. But I knew that we had our call at 7 and that they were waiting for me. And when I had nothing to pray, I was held by the prayers of others. It got me through because I showed up whether I felt like it or not. And we just carried each other.[25:25] What it your hope for the community there; what would you like to see happen in the years to come?I want a space where Jesus is loved. I want a place that is for him, by him, through him, and about him. I want people to walk on the property and experience the presence of Jesus. We get these beautiful thin spaces where people have prayed. I long for a place of restoration, where people can come off the front line of their lives, settle in, and nestle into the Lord’s presence and into a loving, hospitable community. The interesting thing about the new monastic movement in Protestantism, is there are people out there who have a call to a lifestyle of prayer. But because they’re not Catholic, it hasn’t been identified and they haven’t been channeled in the monastic arenas. So we’ve got monks without monasteries in the Protestant church. And one of the joys of my life is finding people who have a vocation and inviting them in family, into a community of shared practices. And you cannot spend long in a prayer room without touching the heart of a God who weeps over a lost world. Night and day prayer inevitably, as it always does in history, to global missions.[29:11] You’re not walking with a lot of agenda – there is a lot of openness.We pray all the time, “Jesus, we don’t want you to build our house. We want to build your house. What is the house you are building?” We keep asking him what’s the next right thing. We’re just all disciples wandering around behind Jesus. We’ve got this unpredictable Rabbi who knows what he’s going to do next. And he invites us along on a journey. One of the things that has wrecked me the most is your dad’s “Prayer of Relinquishment (see below),” giving it all back. So I don’t know what my life is going to look like a year from now, and it doesn’t matter. We get attached to all kinds of things, so I’m just learning to let it all go.[33:53] How does discernment work in your community? When you make a decision to move forward, what does that process look like?It comes out of that prayer of building his house. It comes out of a commitment that if we’re going to follow this Rabbi Jesus, who said I only do what I see my father do, and if Jesus is truly the head of his church and we believe that he speaks today, then it’s a good idea to have a listen, to hear how he wants to exercise his leadership over our community. We’ve drawn on Ignatian models of discernment, to pay attention to the movements of the Holy Spirit within us, to pay attention to how God’s word comes alive to us in various ways. As we interact with Scripture, creating space for Scripture to speak and to transform and invite us, for us it’s a lot of listening to God, a lot of listening to one another. Ruth Haley Barton has a book called Pursuing God’s Will Together that’s the gold standard. Starting with a posture of humility, saying, “God, we need wisdom.” And relinquishment – paying attention to our own egos, agendas, preferences, and being willing to let that go and say, “What do you want, Father? What would please you?” She also takes about the prayer of quiet trust, so relaxing into the care of God and the provision he gives us. We also listen deeply to one another, which requires safety in the room and in relationships. And we watch and wait to see what God brings our way. We wait and we watch and we pray. And if the way feels blocked, we will stop and attend to our relationships and we will repent.[41:23] You can extend this to a church, ministry, family, or small group, to pause and ask if there are apologies that need to be made, to repent. God seems so intent on his children playing well together.Psalm 133 says, “How good and pleasant it is when brothers dwell in unity! It is like the precious oil on the head, running down on the beard, on the beard of Aaron, running donw on the collar of his robes. It is like the dew of Hermon, which falls on the mountains of Zion! For there the Lord has commanded the blessing, life forevermore.” We want to see God do amazing God-sized things. And he wants our hearts, our relationships. He wants the Kingdom of God amongst us. If he can’t trust us with the little handful of relationships, why would he give us more?Resources Mentioned24/7 PrayerOrder of the Mustard SeedRuth Haley Barton, Pursuing God’s Will TogetherRichard Foster, Prayer: Finding the Heart’s True HomeThe Prayer of RelinquishmentToday, O Lord, I yield myself to you.﻿﻿May your will be my delight today.﻿﻿May you have perfect sway in me.﻿﻿May your love be the pattern of my living.﻿﻿I surrender to you my hopes, my dreams, my ambitions.﻿﻿Do with them what you will, when you will, as you will.﻿﻿I place into your loving care my family, my friends, my future.﻿﻿Care for them with a care that I can never give.﻿﻿I release into your hands my need to control, my craving for status, my fear of obscurity.﻿﻿Eradicate the evil, purify the good, and establish your Kingdom on earth.﻿﻿For Jesus’ sake,﻿﻿Amen.

Jill Weber — Cultivating Spaces Where Jesus Is Loved

Jill Weber is a prayer missionary and author who for the last five years has been establishing a new monastic community at the Waverley Abbey Estate in the U.K. Her desire is to cultivate "thin spaces" where Jesus is loved.Show Notes[1:48] Could you share with us about the project you’ve been working on for the past 5 years?We’re working on establishing a prayer community/monastic community at the Waverley Abbey Estate in the U.K. It’s the site of the first Cistercian Monastery in the U.K. There has been prayer on this estate for over 1000 years. We are at the beginnings of building what we believe is going to become a mother house for the 24/7 Prayer movement for the lay ecumenical religious order called the Order of the Mustard Seed. We want to create a place where Jesus is loved.[5:37] Tell us about Order of the Mustard Seed.The original OMS was founded in 1716 in Eastern German by a handful of friends who shared commitments and practices that would hold them to faithfulness to Jesus and the Gospel, commitments which included a praying community that started a prayer meeting that went on for over 100 years. 24/7 Prayer is all about prayer and mission and justice. So they dug up that mustard seed in 2005, and took vows to be true to Christ, kind to people, and take the Gospel to the nations. Like every other religious order, we’re trying to live into the Gospel n a particular way. We’ve taken six practices - prayer and creativity, mission and justice, hospitality and learning – and shaped our lives around those. It’s for regular people in their day-to-day lives. [10:18] How do you live into it? What does it look like for you personally to hold those practices and values in front of you.I’m a monastic, a prayer missionary, so this is my vocation. My days are shaped by rhythms of prayer. We’re all over the world, and realized that we can get on zoom and pray. When COVID first hit, we set four times a day to pray together, these prayer watches. I also exercise my creativity in creating this new monastic community. Hospitality is a vital practice for us, creating space for God and for others. We offer spiritual direction to groups and individuals, which is hospitality as well. We do work around justice – taking seriously the creation mandate to love the world we’ve been given, and also work addressing racial injustice.[14:27] It sounds like an idyllic life.When our lives are small and we’re concerned only with our immediate environment, we don’t get touched by the suffering of others. I’ve found it difficult personally this year to be surrounded by it. We’re carrying it every day. I said this week on the Lectio 365 app, “Instead of talking to God about your problems, talk to your problems about God.” To get declarative as say, “This is the Lord, this is what he can do. He is the God of the heavens and earth. He can do anything.” But at other times I just feel the weight of other people’s crosses as I daily bear one another’s burdens and so fulfill the law of Christ. And it costs.I also pioneered a new monastic community in Canada in a little steel town outside Toronto. The first 2 or 3 years was so hard – everything that could go wrong went wrong. Pioneering is extremely costly. Yes, especially when people are involved. But Jesus asked me to, and I said yes, and trust that there is a joy set before me down the road.[18:30] It’s a noble calling to enter into the suffering of others.We’re all invited to. If we look at the way of Jesus, it was a descending way. He came down entered into it right with us. The invitation is always to cruciform love. Are you willing to stretch yourself out, open yourself up, give yourself freely, knowing that it’s going to cost you.[19:38] What do you say to people who are carrying a lot and not having room to go beyond their own family or the struggles that they are in?I did a 2-year program with Ruth Haley Barton at the Transforming Center, and she introduced me to a mode of intercession where you just hold people in the presence of God in the place of stillness. This is where contemplative pray, solitude and silence, are so important. I don’t have the magical incantation prayer that is going to fix everything. But I can hold people in his presence. My most common prayer is, “Come Lord Jesus, Maranatha.”[21:36] A friend of mine (Bill Vaswig) taught me much about prayer. When I go into certain spaces where there is so much suffering, and I’m just overwhelmed by it and don’t know what to do, he said, “Nate, you’re supposed to pray. You see all this so you can pray. Just walk around and lift them up.”The other thing that helps me is worship. Coming into the presence of Jesus and just look at who he is and declaring his beauty and his strength helps with so many things, gives us the right perspective. It lifts the burden – we don’t have to know what to do, because he knows what to do; we don’t need to be the one to fix because we can’t. He is the only one who can. It’s his presence that changes everything.[24:10] It makes such a difference when there are others involved. It’s one thing to do this on your own, but it’s something else when you have a community or a couple of people that are inviting you to take some time.A lot of times in COVID my get up and go got up and left. But I knew that we had our call at 7 and that they were waiting for me. And when I had nothing to pray, I was held by the prayers of others. It got me through because I showed up whether I felt like it or not. And we just carried each other.[25:25] What it your hope for the community there; what would you like to see happen in the years to come?I want a space where Jesus is loved. I want a place that is for him, by him, through him, and about him. I want people to walk on the property and experience the presence of Jesus. We get these beautiful thin spaces where people have prayed. I long for a place of restoration, where people can come off the front line of their lives, settle in, and nestle into the Lord’s presence and into a loving, hospitable community. The interesting thing about the new monastic movement in Protestantism, is there are people out there who have a call to a lifestyle of prayer. But because they’re not Catholic, it hasn’t been identified and they haven’t been channeled in the monastic arenas. So we’ve got monks without monasteries in the Protestant church. And one of the joys of my life is finding people who have a vocation and inviting them in family, into a community of shared practices. And you cannot spend long in a prayer room without touching the heart of a God who weeps over a lost world. Night and day prayer inevitably, as it always does in history, to global missions.[29:11] You’re not walking with a lot of agenda – there is a lot of openness.We pray all the time, “Jesus, we don’t want you to build our house. We want to build your house. What is the house you are building?” We keep asking him what’s the next right thing. We’re just all disciples wandering around behind Jesus. We’ve got this unpredictable Rabbi who knows what he’s going to do next. And he invites us along on a journey. One of the things that has wrecked me the most is your dad’s “Prayer of Relinquishment (see below),” giving it all back. So I don’t know what my life is going to look like a year from now, and it doesn’t matter. We get attached to all kinds of things, so I’m just learning to let it all go.[33:53] How does discernment work in your community? When you make a decision to move forward, what does that process look like?It comes out of that prayer of building his house. It comes out of a commitment that if we’re going to follow this Rabbi Jesus, who said I only do what I see my father do, and if Jesus is truly the head of his church and we believe that he speaks today, then it’s a good idea to have a listen, to hear how he wants to exercise his leadership over our community. We’ve drawn on Ignatian models of discernment, to pay attention to the movements of the Holy Spirit within us, to pay attention to how God’s word comes alive to us in various ways. As we interact with Scripture, creating space for Scripture to speak and to transform and invite us, for us it’s a lot of listening to God, a lot of listening to one another. Ruth Haley Barton has a book called Pursuing God’s Will Together that’s the gold standard. Starting with a posture of humility, saying, “God, we need wisdom.” And relinquishment – paying attention to our own egos, agendas, preferences, and being willing to let that go and say, “What do you want, Father? What would please you?” She also takes about the prayer of quiet trust, so relaxing into the care of God and the provision he gives us. We also listen deeply to one another, which requires safety in the room and in relationships. And we watch and wait to see what God brings our way. We wait and we watch and we pray. And if the way feels blocked, we will stop and attend to our relationships and we will repent.[41:23] You can extend this to a church, ministry, family, or small group, to pause and ask if there are apologies that need to be made, to repent. God seems so intent on his children playing well together.Psalm 133 says, “How good and pleasant it is when brothers dwell in unity! It is like the precious oil on the head, running down on the beard, on the beard of Aaron, running donw on the collar of his robes. It is like the dew of Hermon, which falls on the mountains of Zion! For there the Lord has commanded the blessing, life forevermore.” We want to see God do amazing God-sized things. And he wants our hearts, our relationships. He wants the Kingdom of God amongst us. If he can’t trust us with the little handful of relationships, why would he give us more?Resources Mentioned 24/7 Prayer Order of the Mustard Seed Ruth Haley Barton, Pursuing God’s Will Together Richard Foster, Prayer: Finding the Heart’s True Home The Prayer of RelinquishmentToday, O Lord, I yield myself to you. May your will be my delight today. May you have perfect sway in me. May your love be the pattern of my living. I surrender to you my hopes, my dreams, my ambitions. Do with them what you will, when you will, as you will. I place into your loving care my family, my friends, my future. Care for them with a care that I can never give. I release into your hands my need to control, my craving for status, my fear of obscurity. Eradicate the evil, purify the good, and establish your Kingdom on earth. For Jesus’ sake, Amen.

Leadership soul care is vital. Nathan talks with Alan Fadling, Kristi Gaultiere, and Steve Macchia—who each have ministries dedicated to serving Christian leaders—about cultivating a healthy, paced, Jesus-rooted way of leading.

Alan Fadling, Kristi Gaultiere, Steve Macchia — Leadership Soul Care

Mark Scandrette talks with Nathan Foster about seeing the world the way Jesus did, the hidden wisdom in the ﻿﻿Beatitudes, and applying the Sermon on the Mount to everyday life.

Mark Scandrette — The Ninefold Path of Jesus

Resources by J.P. Moreland Finding Quiet: My Story of Overcoming Anxiety and the Practices that Brought Peace J.P. Moreland’s Website Q: I’m really interested to know how a philosophy professor ends up writing a book on anxiety and depression.I approach philosophy as an attempt to learn how to live a wise and flourishing life that honors Christ. I was born with a problem with anxiety that led me to wanting to continue to develop my emotional health and spiritual health. I was born with a genetic disposition towards anxiety from my mom’s side, and as a little boy I also observed her worry and be anxious a lot. So by the time I got out of high school, and was well-taught and predisposed to being an anxious person. In 2003 I had an unbelievably stressful year at university. I had panic attacks and had what I could call a nervous breakdown that lasted 7 months. I got on medications, got into good Christian therapy, and began to practice some things that I’ve learned from Dallas Willard. After 7 months I got better. But then it happened again for 5 months. So I devoted myself to learning about anxiety and coming up with a list of practices that would help me.Q: The other thing you do that I found really helpful is that you help address a lot of concerns that Christians might have about mental health or medication or self-compassion. Have you found that to be well-received or have you gotten pushback from that?I did get some pushback. I was actually preaching at a church and I talked about the importance of medication for those who need it, and I was not allowed to speak at the second service and was never invited back. They were pretty upset with me. The Bible itself emphasizes the importance of non-biblical knowledge. If something in psychology contradicts the Bible, then I don’t accept it. But if the Bible doesn’t speak about it, then I’m free to follow the evidence wherever it goes. Psychology and psychiatry have a tremendous amount to offer us in our tool bag.Q: One of the pieces that I found really helpful in the book is you continue to go back to all these practices and very practical things that have worked for you, yet leaving it open for not being totally prescriptive for people. I'm curious to hear a little about your journey with contemplative prayer and how that has helped you with anxiety.It’s been life changing. I needed to learn how to attach to God. This form of prayer has opened me up to attaching and connecting and experiencing the presence of God with more intensity than I had before. It has drawn me closer to the Lord. Contemplative prayer has a lot of different ways of doing it. The bottom line for me was finding a way to sit in the same place every morning and be quiet and to learn how to focus my attention by the use of some repetitive phrase. I want to get in a position of receptivity where I’m open to being guided or connected.Q: could you say a little about the four-step solution process?It is one way of dealing with the kinds of negative self-talk that we are habituated to that tears us down and makes us afraid and depressed. It was generated by Jeffrey Schwarz. It’s a way of re-training your self-talk. The first step is that you invite the Spirit to search you and help you notice when you’re doing this. Step 2 is to label it (there are 10 typical thought disorders), to name it, which takes the power out of it. Step 3 is refocusing, where you turn your mind away from it, and go to something that gets you into what’s called flow. Step 4 is evaluate how you did in handling it. After 2-3 months of doing this daily, those grooves that automatically trigger anxiety are replaced with triggers that automatically cause feelings of joy and peace.Q: How did your friendship with Dallas inform your writing.He was my main professor and my dissertation supervisor. Part of his influence was realizing that it is actually possible to make tremendous progress in this journey. He really lived this, and that attractiveness of his heart and life drew me in, motivated me to dive in a learn a new era of the Christian life that I had not been taught before.Q: It reads like formation work applied to mental health challenges. What was it like to crash for all those months?It was terrorizing. What I learned quickly was that my typical approach to the Christian life was not adequate to deal with it. I felt like I was letting people down.Q: Are you healed?I haven’t come close to having mild anxiety in 5 or 6 years, and it’s been 8 years since the breakdown. In 2015 and for the next 2 ½ years I had 8 surgeries – one was life threatening for sure. I had chemo and 2 rounds of radiation, and I went through that whole time filled with joy and peace. And that’s because I was reaping what I had sown for years in these practices. They worked; they actually re-formed my character to where the natural thing for me to do was respond in a trusting manner. Cast your anxiety on the Lord and he’ll care for you, and the peace of Christ which surpasses understanding will guard your hearts and minds – those are not so much promises as ideals that you strive to achieve through practices and through praying through things. After a while, those texts become effective because you have developed the habituation that makes them a part of what you’ve now become.Q: How important were Biblical passages for you?The first appendix in Finding Quiet is a list of verses that are solid gold. Dallas told me that as, or more important, than getting in the Word and reading it, is to commit a handful of verses to memory that are there and you love them, they just do something for you, and make those the rails on which you run your life. As I began contemplative prayer, I would begin to quietly pray through a few of those and orient myself to contemplative prayer sessions with these verses. Pick a list of 4 or 5. I would try to express them emotionally to God, rather than cognitively reciting them.Q: What would you say to someone listening who is really struggling with anxiety and maybe has some self-condemnation or shame?Remember that Peter says that there are brothers and sisters all over the world who are going through the same things and that you’re not alone. This is an epidemic, so you’re not unusual. If this is a hard thing to handle, why not go to a Christian therapist and get some Christian counselling; go to a psychiatrist (rather than a GP) and consider getting a little help with meds until you get over the hump. And begin sharing what you’re experiencing with trusted people so that you have a place to share it to get it off your chest. And then begin some of these simple practices. Guilt and shame is not needed. I don’t think Christians should ever feel guilt or shame because of Romans 8:1 that says there is no condemnation and Colossians says that what we’ve done, our certificate of debt, was nailed to the cross. We should feel something else, and that is godly sorrow. The difference is that shame and guilt and self-oriented and self-condemnatory and puts me down. Godly sorrow is a form of sadness that draws me toward the Lord where I can acknowledge things and agree with God. It moves me toward the Lord and creates a hunger to conform to the way he is and continue on the journey rather than beating myself up.Q: For folks who have friends and family, spouses, that are struggling with anxiety, is there a word you might have for the best way they can love each other through this?The first thing is to be present to your loved one and give them opportunities to share and talk. And without you initially trying to fix it. Just be a presence and listen, even if you’ve heard it every day for 20 days now. That’s going to give a feeling of support. Be careful to preserve your own boundaries. You’re going to need time away and you just have to communicate that with them. You have to keep yourself from going down or you’re not going to be any good to anybody.Q: How was your wife?She was worried. She was just there for me and listened to me and supported me. I didn’t feel any condemnation on her part.

J.P. Moreland — Overcoming Anxiety

From the Renovaré 1999 international conference, Dallas Willard talks about what it means for our lives to become eternal—to be caught up into God's life.

Dallas Willard — Living the Divine Conspiracy

One of the highlights of attending a Renovaré conference back in the 1990s and 2000s was George Skramstad leading songs and hearing his "History of Worship" presentation from the piano. Nathan talks with George about worship as expressed in music and life.

George Skramstad — The History of Worship

Luci Shaw's zest for life is contagious. At 92, the poet and writer is still discovering and creating. She talks with Nathan Foster about her new book, The Generosity, her creative process, and her close friendship with Madeleine L'Engle.

Luci Shaw — On Poetry, Creativity, and Madeleine L'Engle

James Catford, board chair at Renovaré and SPCK (UK's largest Christian publisher), talks to Nathan about a wonderfully practical book with an austere title: William Law's A Serious Call to a Devout and Holy Life.﻿﻿ James is facilitating the Renovaré Book Club starting in April 2021.  In the episode, you'll hear Richard Foster and Dallas Willard introducing the book at the 1999 Renovaré International Conference.[10:32] How has William Law’s book been helpful to you?I’m interested in anyone trying to relate the two worlds of church and the market square together. There are those out there doing a regular job with a Jesus orientation – work done in secular job either to convert people or raise income to give to the church, but I think it’s a bit more than that. William Law believed that and wanted Jesus to be Lord of everything.[12:45] How did the intersection of work and spiritual life play out for you?Working in a publishing company in London, young, pursuing a career, publishing some interesting people - leaders of our country like Margaret Thatcher and Tony Blair. It was going really well. But my spiritual world was over here and my working life was way over here. And I didn’t know how to bring the two together. Increasingly my spiritual journey was not keeping up with the complexities and challenges of a very competitive industry. Can God really handle the tough commercial world?[14:59] Did you find integration?I found Divine Conspiracy. And your father said to me once, “As a child I was taught that you keep these two worlds as far apart as possible, the God world and the job world, and that really spiritual people keep them as far apart as possible. You escape the world to be with God.” Then he took his two hands and brought them together and intertwined his fingers. “Now I realize that the really spiritual people are the ones who can bring the two together, who can bring God into the spaces that are supposedly ‘out there.’” I was 36 years old, and I remember thinking, “This is the life I want to pursue, working out what that means.”[17:34] And how did William Law’s work contribute to that?This book gives examples of people, not just an argument putting forward ideas. He’s giving insight into people he lived with or knew, and that’s rather charming. I like the pragmatism of the book. He’s talking about people in jobs, doing ordinary things. He says that we need to temper the spiritual disciplines according to your state of being, bearing in mind that your situation will change, doing different things at different stages. So be easy on yourself. He’s much more generous toward us than we are to ourselves. The spiritual classics are much more forgiving and understanding – do what you can, and don’t sweat what you are not able to do.[20:53] In a culture that wouldn’t be drawn to the title, ironically there is grace in this.Help people that are beginning this book. You’ve said something about approaching these kinds of books with a small spoon.The older the book, the slower the speed.[22:16] What are some of the considerations, culturally, that people should come at this book with?He is very concerned about people pretending to be spiritual. It’s an English book; he’s from a small English village. Everybody knows everybody else, and it’s quite easy to present that you’re more spiritual than you actually are – you present well in church. He was interested in who you are not just on Sunday, but Tuesday, Thursday, at work.[24:40] He presents the idea that everything is sacred, where does beauty come in?In the wider world, our culture is good at spotting beauty. We should join the culture in the conversation about beauty; it’s one of the best ways to start a spiritual discussion, whether around art, film, video, furniture, architecture, logo design. It’s one of the transcendentals that allows us to talk to people - beauty, truth and goodness.[26:36] How does Law’s view of holiness lend itself to engaging with beauty, or does it?It does if you realize the beauty of holiness, like we hear in the hymn Worship the Lord in the Beauty of Holiness. If you meet a holy person in character terms, there is a beauty that draws us in. We often talk about holiness in relation to God, but God as the other, removed, further away from us. But the other way to talk about it is as something that works well. Holy people are able to do what needs to be done when it needs to be done – able to respond in the right way at the right time. And there is a beauty, simplicity, and holiness about it.[29:15] In a sense this is a work that helps us move closer into being people who function well.Unencumbered is the way I would put it –all those things that interrupt us becoming the best person we can be; is the person that is free from all the things that interrupt us – things that can happen at work – all the pride, ego, grasping, greed, and looking good things. But there’s not that interior beauty. That is what this book is going to help us with in practical terms.﻿Resources Mentioned A Serious Call to a Devout and Holy Life (this version being used for the Renovaré Book Club) Song: O Worship the Lord in the Beauty of Holiness﻿ 

James Catford — A Serious Call to a Beautiful Life

A conversational podcast on spiritual formation, spiritual disciplines, and life with God. New episodes every other Monday. Hosted by Nathan Foster of Renovaré, a nonprofit that provides resources, events, and learning communities to help people become more like Jesus. Learn more at renovare.org.

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Renovaré Podcast with Nathan Foster

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