For this episode of Sub Rosa, Andrew interviewed Daveed Gartenstein-Ross and Carolina "Nina" Ponzeto from Valens Global. They discuss technology adoption and organisational learning, focusing on terrorist organisations as well as regular commercial start-ups. This is a lengthy episode, covering a wide range of topics. The episode first discusses a new report (co-authored by Daveed along with Matt Shear and David Jones) on the use of technology by violent non-state actors, such as drug cartels, terrorist groups, or insurgent organisations. This part of the discussion looks at remotely planned terrorist attacks, the use of drones, the use of commercial drones by violent non-state actors, as well as cryptocurrencies and artificial intelligence. The conversation then turns to Valens Global itself, which is a start-up in the national security sector. Nina, as their Chief Operating Officer, tells us about ways in which Valens Global adopts technology and engages in organisational learning. Part of this discussion looks at how running your own organisation can provide insight into how other organisations are run, including violent organisations, as well as how the academic field of terrorism studies hasn't greatly focused on organisational learning. Andrew, Daveed and Nina also discuss broader national security debates, how the "marketplace of ideas" can be quite dysfunctional at times, and how start-ups in this area can help address some of these problems but also risk exacerbating them. The episode runs for about 90 minutes. This is the first Sub Rosa episode recorded over Skype, so there are a couple of patches of poor sound quality. These are mostly in the first 15 minutes, but it clears up afterwards. The episode was recorded on 11 October 2019, and the main report discussed is now available online: https://valensglobal.com/2019/11/20/virtual-plotters-drones-weaponized-ai-violent-non-state-actors-as-deadly-early-adopters/

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17. Tech adoption by terrorists and start-ups, with Daveed Gartenstein-Ross and Carolina Ponzeto

Kate Grealy discusses the role of the label "radical" in Indonesia's current political climate. This episode is based on a conference paper Kate recently presented, called Hardliners, Moderates and the Politics of Islam in Indonesia. Terrorism prevention efforts in Indonesia have long had a strong focus on ideological expressions of extremism within Islam, and claimed to promote a moderate Islam as an antidote to the extremism deemed to create terrorism. Kate's research asks just how useful this type of approach actually is, and why are some extremisms considered riskier than others in the current political climate. It finds that the label "radical", while an important definitional tool, is being instrumentalised by the state and those in positions of power to repress certain forms of criticism and silence those considered a threat.

16. Kate Grealy on the politics of the radical label in Indonesia

For this episode, Kate Grealy shares a presentation she recently gave to the Centre for Indonesian Law, Islam and Society at the University of Melbourne in November 2018. Kate's talk provided an overview about how countering violent extremism (CVE) policies have been incorporated into international development, focusing on global approaches that have been implemented in Indonesia. Kate discusses the implications of the international development sector engaging in work that has previously been conducted by domestic counter terrorism and security professionals, and looks at emerging issues in the field.

15. Kate Grealy on the impact of CVE policies on international development efforts

For this episode, David Schaefer returns to talk to Andrew Zammit about the academic field of intelligence studies. David also discusses a new article of his on the potential impact of new technology on intelligence cooperation in outer space and the future of Pine Gap, the joint US-Australian satellite facility. David Schaefer is currently a PhD Candidate at the Department of War Studies in King’s College London. This episode was recorded in April 2018 and marks the second time David was been interviewed on Sub Rosa. We begin by talking about David's new research in London and the field of intelligence studies, and then we discuss his new article on optical communications technologies and whether they will make Pine Gap less valuable in future. At the very end David and Andrew (joined briefly by Katrina Zorzi) discuss a range of books that listeners might be interested in for more information on the topic.

14. Intelligence studies and the future of Pine Gap, with David Schaefer

In this episode, Andrew talks to David Schaefer about developments in space technology and how they are changing long-held assumptions about the military alliance between Australia and the United States. David Schaefer is currently a PhD Candidate at King's College London. When this episode was recorded in September 2017, David was based at the University of Melbourne, working for AsiaLink and Ormond College. We spoke about his research on how technological changes have impacted the US-Australian alliance in ways that haven't always been widely recognised in Australia's national security debates. We also spoke about how this potentially makes Australia's exposure to great-power conflict more complex and ambiguous than during the Cold War, particularly in the context of US-China rivalry and the prospect that any new conflict could open with cyber-attacks against information networks shared between Australia and the United States.

13. Space technology and the US-Australian alliance, with David Schaefer

In this episode, Andrew continues his conversation with Levi West about terrorism in Australia. Levi West is the Director of Terrorism Studies at Charles Sturt University. This is the second episode in a two-part series. The first half covered terrorism in Australia from the 1960s up until 2013. This second half covers the impact of the Syrian civil war, the rise of “Islamic State”, and controversies over counter-terrorism powers. We discuss measures such as passport-confiscation, control orders and citizenship-revocation, drawing out some of practical, legal, and moral issues involved. We also discuss how jihadist terror plots in Australia have evolved, and some of the factors behind this. We end by briefly covering the terrorist threat in Indonesia, and counter-terrorism cooperation between Indonesia and Australia. The episode was recorded in November 2016, so it does not cover some more recent developments, such as an alleged Christmas Day bombing plot in Melbourne, or the alleged attempt by a man in New South Wales to assist "Islamic State" with missile technology.

12. A conversation on terrorism in Australia, with Levi West - part 2

In this episode, Andrew talks with Levi West about terrorism in Australia. Levi West is the Director of Terrorism Studies at Charles Sturt University. This is the first episode for 2017, and has a different format to earlier episodes. Instead of a straight Q & A interview, we've gone for a more conversational format, with the host and guest both contributing. This episode presents the first half of the conversation, discussing terrorism in Australia from the 1960s up until 2013. We discuss the international development of terrorism and its Australian manifestations, demonstrated by various Yugoslav, Ananada Marga, Palestinian, Armenian, far-left and far-right groups that sometimes engaged in small-scale political violence in Australia. We then discuss transitions that occurred in the 1990s, with high-profile terror attacks such as the 1993 World Trade Center bombing (by jihadists), the 1995 Tokya subway sarin gas attack (by the Aum Shinrikyo sect), the 1995 Oklahoma bombing (by far-right extremists), and the 1998 US embassy bombings in Kenya and Tanzani (by jihadists). These attacks had implications for Australia, particularly with a local jihadist scene emerging, though terrorism rarely featured in political discussion at the time. We then turn to the post-9/11 environment, as global jihadism became the predominant terrorist threat to Australia, posing a more serious prospect of mass casualty attacks than earlier threats had. We discuss how jihadism within Australia evolved up until 2013, and how various political developments (such as the seizure or loss of territory), strategic shifts (through the writings of jihadist theoreticians), and counter-terrorism responses (including increased resources and powers for security agencies) shaped the threat. The impact of the Syrian civil war, the rise of "Islamic State", and controversies over counter-terrorism powers, are covered in the next episode.

11. A conversation on terrorism in Australia, with Levi West - part 1

For this episode, Andrew spoke to Vidhya Ramalingam and Ross Frenett about countering violent extremism (CVE), which refers to non-coercive efforts to help prevent involvement in terrorism. Ross and Vidhya previously worked for organisations such as the Institute for Strategic Dialogue and Google Ideas. They recently founded their their own organisation, Moonshot CVE, building on their past work with violent extremists and experiences in the tech sector.

10. Countering violent extremism, with Ross Frenett and Vidhya Ramalingam

For this episode, Kate interviewed Zabi Mazoori, who coordinates the Afghanistan project for Physicians for Human Rights' International Forensic Program. In 2001, he fled persecution by the Taliban and sought asylum in Australia. He returned to Afghanistan to pursue human rights work in 2008. Zabi Mazoori spent two years working at the Afghanistan Independent Human Rights Commission, specialising in transitional justice. He also consulted for Physicians for Human Rights, where he facilitated the Paraprofessional Mass Grave Site Team and Basic Human Osteology Training conducted in 2010 at the Afghan National Police Academy. He is also one of the founders of the Afghanistan ForensiceScience Organization and a founding member of the Transitional Justice Coordination Group. In this episode, Kate and Zabi discussed the development of forensic training in Afghanistan for documenting and preserving evidence in mass grave and massacre exhumations. They discuss how this helps to prosecute perpetrators of violence, some of whom are still in power, and to ensure dignity to victims by enabling proper burials of loved ones. They also discuss how hymen-examination for virginity-testing emerged as a forensic issue, and how this is a scientifically invalid process. The Afghanistan Forensic Science Organization gained support from the ulama to call for a total ban on such tests. At the end, Zabi describes major changes that have occurred in Afghanistan since the fall of the Taliban and highlights gaps in development, particularly in higher education, which Zabi describes as integral to the country's future development.

9. Forensic science and human rights in Afghanistan, with Zabi Mazoori

In this episode, Kate spoke with Umar Werfete. Umar is a lecturer and a head of research at the State Islamic University of Jayapura in Papua, Indonesia. He also researches religious issues in Papua in his position within the Division for Research and Development, Indonesian Council of Ulama (MUI) Papua and is responsible for peace education initiatives and interfaith dialogue in his position within the Division of Peace Education and Interfaith Relations, Council of Papuan Muslims. We discuss key issues in interfaith relations in Papua today, and how civil society groups work to promote peace between faith communities in Papua when the potential for clashes between Muslim and Christian communities remains high. We also discuss how developments outside Papua affect interfaith relations, including the ways in which Muslim-Christian relations in Muslim-majority Java affect interfaith relations in the province, as well as the kinds of programs and initiatives that have proven most successful for Umar and his colleagues in reducing conflict among cultural and faith groups in Papua.

8. Conflict and Muslim-Christian relations in Papua, with Umar Werfete

For this episode, Andrew interviewed Major Mick Cook from the Australian Army. In recent years the Army has withdrawn from deployments in Afghanistan, Timor-Leste and the Solomon Islands (but been sent back to Iraq). Its soldiers are having to learn lessons from past conflicts and prepare for whatever future conflicts they may end up in. But unlike earlier generations, today's soldiers live and learn in an increasingly digital environment, where social media plays a large role in people's lives. Major Mick Cook, who currently serves as the Australian Army's social media and online engagement manager, has lots to say on this. We discussed: - Outreach efforts, such as the official Facebook pages and Twitter accounts run by various Army units, and actions to inform the public about training exercises like the recent Exercise Hamel. - Soldiers' personal use of social media, and l initiatives to use various types of online media for intellectual discussion and professional development. - How the tactical responsibilities of junior commanders have changed since the World Wars. - How some officers are using online outlets such as podcasts, web-based journals and social media to to discuss military theory and practical lessons with other officers and military thinkers, both across Australia and overseas. - The need for innovation and entrepreneurship within the Australian Army, and some of the dilemmas involved. - Mick's own military careers, his online projects, and reading interests.

7. Social media and the Australian Army, with Mick Cook

For this episode Kate interviewed Firly Annisa, an activist and lecturer in Media and Communication at Muhammadiyah University in Yogyakarta, Indonesia. Firly is also involved with the NGO Rumah Sinema (Cinema House) where she promotes media literacy amongst young people. We spoke about issues around the portrayal of women in Indonesian media and advertising, how social stereotypes of gender roles affect the way women see themselves and interact with society. We also discussed the rising trend of Muslim Middle class consumption, the concurrent rise of Islamic fashion amongst Indonesia’s middle class, and the unrealistic moral and aesthetic pressures this highly visible consumer trend places on Indonesian women - from skin whiteness as an association with ‘Muslim piety,’ to the irony of the commodification of a pious aesthetic by the fashion industry.

6. Gender politics in Indonesian media, with Firly Annisa

For this episode, Andrew interviewed former GCHQ employee David Wells about counter-terrorism. GCHQ is the UK government's signals intelligence agency, similar to the United States National Security Agency (NSA) or the Australian Signals Directorate (ASD). The interview discusses the nature of signals intelligence and its current role in counter-terrorism. We discuss the threats posed by the "Islamic State" and al-Qaeda as well as the difficulties of preventing terrorist attacks like those seen in Brussels and Paris. We also discuss the current terrorist threat to Australia and dilemmas raised by counter-terrorism efforts so far.

5. Signals intelligence and counter-terrorism, with David Wells

In this episode Kate interviewed Trish Cameron, Legal Aid Coordinator at Suaka, an Indonesia-based network that works for refugee rights protection in the country. While global focus has been on the refugee crisis in Europe, it is important to remember that Indonesia and Asia Pacific region are also affected . Although Indonesia allows asylums seekers and refugees to remain in the country until they find a permanent place of resettlement, the country is also reluctant to come up with a more concrete strategy on how to handle the arrival and presence of asylum seekers in the long-term. While existing migration and security forums such as the Bali Process and the ASEAN have lost momentum in addressing the issue - despite the growing numbers of displaced people in Southeast Asia such as the Rohingya - Australia has closed its borders to asylum seekers and refugees arriving by boat from Indonesia. As a result, Indonesia has transformed from a place of transit, to hosting growing numbers of asylum seekers for longer periods while they await resettlement. In this episode, Kate and Trish spoke about the issue of increasing numbers of asylum seekers in Indonesia and the region, the challenges this poses for Indonesia-based organisations, and how civil society organisations are working towards the creation of effective refugee processing legislation and systems in the Asia-Pacific. Trish also spoke about the most useful (and not so useful) ways eager refugee advocates can channel their desire to support refugees in the region.

4. Refugees and asylum seekers in Indonesia, with Trish Cameron

For this episode, Andrew spoke to Noor Huda Ismail, an Indonesian author, film-maker, activist, and PhD candidate. Huda set up several non-government rehabilitation programs for terrorists released from jail in Indonesia, to help prevent them from becoming involved in violent extremism again. He's now based in Australia, studying the involvement of Indonesians with the "Islamic State" in Syria and Iraq. The episode begins by discussing Noor Huda's journey into this world. We talk about his teenage years in a boarding school in a central Java that was run by Abdullah Sungkar and Abu Baku Bashir. Sungkar and Bashir were members of an Indonesian jihadist movement called Darul Islam and would become the co-founders of the terrorist group Jemaah Islamiyah (JI). Several students in this school were recruited into JI, trained in Afghanistan, and later carried out bombings in Indonesia in the early 2000s. But Huda's life went in a very different direction. Huda explains how he felt compelled to help tackle terrorism in Indonesia. He was inspired by non-government efforts he saw working in Northern Ireland, and tried to set up similar programs in Indonesia. Not all of these worked, and he explains several of the successes and failures in this episode. We also talk about the evolution of terrorism in Indonesia, strengths and weaknesses of the state's counter-terrorism efforts, how the Syrian civil war and the rise of the "Islamic State" has changed the threat, and how he conducts research on this.

3. Understanding terrorism in Indonesia, with Noor Huda Ismail

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