<h1>Guest: Geoffrey van der Ven</h1> Geoffrey van der Ven is a spoken word artist and theater maker known for his sharp, critical, and activist voice, particularly within the queer and BIPOC communities. He often focuses on bringing unheard stories to the forefront, especially those related to queer history and identity. He is recognized for his solo performance "Het is niet nieuw" ("It is not new"), which explores the queer history of Africa, and is currently working on a new show called "What's the Difference," which delves into queer shame.Geoffrey has received accolades such as the Poet of the Year award at the Queer & Feminist Poetry Awards and an honorable mention at Button Poetry. He has performed at major venues and events like the Nieuwe Luxor Theater, Rotterdam Pride, and the Amsterdam Fringe Festival.  <h3>HIGHLIGHTS & TAKEAWAYS:</h3><ul><li>KG: You have such an interesting career in product management. You also handle innovation and strategy consulting. You also are a huge advocate and a spoken artist and a speaker, just the name of you. Is there a red thread that ties all of these activities for you? What's the driving force behind all that you do?</li><li>GEOFFREY: What I actually do at every company that I've ever worked at is I look at what we do, whether that's the systems that we use internally or the systems that we provide to our clients or users. And I see where it does and it doesn't work for the people that are using it. And then I take action because I get really itchy when I see something that doesn't work. Well, we can probably fix this so that I, come up with an idea. We test it and we fix it and we make it better.</li><li>GEOFFREY: I think that human aspect is what seeps through also on the artist side of the story. I think that personal, human, there's always, the human, people are gonna be like, there's humans everywhere, but there's always the human thing, the human aspect of it, the human story, whether that's your own story or the story of your clients, that's always present.</li><li>KG: What do the terms ethics and integrity mean to you?</li><li>GEOFFREY: Integrity because I think that's the easiest one to carry. Do what is right. Not what's easy or what comes the fastest. Just do the right thing. Do the right thing with that responsibility. Come up for voices that don't have that stage. It's gonna sound very holier than thou, but speak to the greater good. Use your story in the right way and then be aware of the dynamics that are at play and of the space that you take and the space that someone you maybe shouldn't take or should pass over to someone else.</li><li>GEOFFREY:  There's moments where you might have two user groups that have conflicting needs, or where despite all the right intentions, you have a line in a poem that does hurt someone or offend someone. I think that we need to get rid of that idea that there's no ambivalence in this. There can be multiple things that occur at the same time. But then again, I think it comes down to how you then deal with those situations.</li><li>KG: Is there an example that you feel comfortable sharing where you navigate an ethical dilemma? And then maybe you can share what you learned from it in how to deal with these difficult conversations?</li><li>GEOFFREY: I think that when it comes down to staying aligned with your values, that's easier for me to speak on.</li><li>KG: Is there a blueprint in your mind where it's almost like an algorithm and that's how you find it fairly straightforward because that's consistent in everything you've said so far that in your mind it's a straightforward thing. Did you work on it to make it straightforward to unravel how we tend to over complicate things and worry? How did you get here?</li><li>GEOFFREY: I am almost to a fault solution oriented as a person. And that's great and like 90 % of the time until I run into a problem that I cannot solve and then I crash. I think for me, after a while, I started working somewhere where I had a lot of agency, where I had a boss that went, or a line manager that said, do what you think is right, and if it's wrong, learn from it. Which was amazing, because for once I could see these innovation projects and these product management issues and go, this is what I think we should do. 90 % of what I think we should do is talk to the users. And not talking to the users is never an answer for me.</li><li>GEOFFREY: Convincing people that you're right never works. Or sometimes it works, but then you win the argument and you lose the working relationship. It is worth convincing them that it's a path worth exploring.</li><li>I think that honesty, that human side of the story, your own human side of the story, your willingness to take responsibility and admit that maybe you're not perfect and that if you're wrong, you will let them know that you're wrong. We miss that sometimes. But it aligns with a part of me about being open. And that part of me, that value of being open is what I carry through. The more that you start being honest and open about all aspects of your life, you also get to be honest and open in your work itself. And that starts, then things fall into place.</li><li>KG: It sounds to me like what you're saying is one, it's actually quite straightforward to do the right thing. Keep in mind that it's the stakeholders who matter the most. If that's clear in your mind, sense of purpose, goal orientation, that's number one. Number two is to yourself be open, because if you're clear on what your goals are, you stay open and grounded and pragmatic about solution orientation. And number three, you seem to be saying is clarity in communication.</li><li>KG: Is there anything you'd add to this list or anything that I've missed that you've shared already that would help early-career, mid-career product managers to successfully persuade people to follow their advice because you work with so many clients and organizations?</li><li>GEOFFREY: Sit in the other people's chairs. I think everyone on any team can agree that as a company you have customers. And that as a company you want to make those customers happy, and you most likely want to get more customers. So whether you agree with me or not, we can agree on this. It's a shared value between yourself and your stakeholders. Keep whatever discussion you're having focused on that. It's not about me and it's not about you- keep it focused on that. And then look at that goal through the eyes of the people around you.</li><li>GEOFFREY: I always, always, always have a problem backlog. It is a list of all issues that we know our customers experience with the product, of all problems that our customers have. Prioritized according to how many customers experience that problem and how frequently they experience that problem.</li><li>GEOFFREY: We all agree, happy customers, more customers. So how do we make them happy? Solve these problems. Those are two things I want to add to that is empathy and prioritize the problems.</li><li>KG:  Do you have any perspectives to share in terms of ethics and integrity? Customer orientation or user orientation in terms of responsible innovation or the future of this sector field?</li><li>GEOFFREY: There will always be people that we're trying to make happy with our products, which means that you will always need an advocate for those people within companies to make sure that you're building your right product.</li><li>GEOFFREY: I think in ethics, you end up in the same tale of just listen to your users. Learn to admit and see that everyone makes mistakes and everything can be wrong and consider the fact that you're working with people.</li><li>KG: As a tech aficionado and perhaps a subject matter expert as well, are there examples in the public domain where you've observed companies or products are doing what you're recommending here?</li><li>GEOFFREY: There was recently a company that I saw literally do this and it made me so happy. Cool Blue does this quite well. They have a really fun personality as a company. I think they do admit it when they're wrong. But mostly they go about everything with a sense of humor. I think another company that does this quite interestingly is The Nothing Phone. Their CEO literally on YouTube, like he records himself live watching reviews and responds to these reviews. And in some places he gives context for choices which I like because it's context for choice. So he's not excusing a problem or an issue. He's going, these are the constraints and these were the choices made based on those constraints, hence indeed this issue.</li><li>GEOFFREY: I've had this as a product manager where you see a massive problem with your product and you don't have the resources to solve it within a week and you're like, it's big problem, but just being able to go to a customer, I'm gonna put in my best effort and attempt to help you. That already changes the interaction that you're having because it goes from the experience of you working against them and making their life harder for something that should be simpler to, okay, let me see if I can stand on your side of the story and help you. And even if I can't help you, maybe relieve some of your frustration.</li><li>GEOFFREY: Every time I work with a development team, I need and want them to be able to read the interviews with the customers and to understand the customer's problem. First of all, you end up with creative solutions that anybody else on the team would have never thought of. And second of all, aligns them on the mission.</li><li>GEOFFREY: The more empathy you have within your company towards the users that you're trying to solve problems for, the better that solution ends up being and the more motivated people end up being.</li><li>KG: Is there a book, a quote, or any advice that you hold close to your heart right now and you'd like to share?</li><li>GEOFFREY: I'm currently writing a theater show about shame. And to write that show, do research and part of the research was reading a book called Velvet Rage. This research on shame, it's incredible because you realize that it's present in so many layers of society and there's so many examples that you see and so many responses that people have to things.</li><li>GEOFFREY: I think that we don't talk about shame, which is one of the mechanisms of shame is that we hide and we don't talk about it. And because we talk about it so little, it's not on our empathy radar. We very rarely go, what if they're ashamed? And that's why this is the response. And not talking about shame keeps shame intact. So that's a silence that I think we need to collectively break in order to make working together easier, in order to help you understand the world, in order to make makes life easier to have that extra little insight into this one emotion that we kind of keep aside and even when we do talk about shame we very frequently incorrectly define it so then we're still mischaracterizing it.</li></ul> <h3>REFERENCES & LINKS:</h3>GEOFFREY’s LinkedIN/Website page<a href="https://www.linkedin.com/in/geoffreyven/" rel="noopener noreferrer" target="_blank" style="color: rgb(110, 119, 110);">LINKEDIN</a><a href="https://www.geeven.me/" rel="noopener noreferrer" target="_blank" style="color: rgb(110, 119, 110);">Geoffrey van der Ven</a> GEOFFREY’s Book/Suggested Article<a href="https://www.amazon.com/Velvet-Rage-Overcoming-Growing-Straight/dp/1611746450" rel="noopener noreferrer" target="_blank" style="color: rgb(110, 119, 110);">VELVET RAGE by ALAN DOWNS</a> The Human Conversation Podcast Channels<a href="https://podcasts.apple.com/us/podcast/the-human-conversation-podcast-on-leadership-and-ethics/id1736302989" rel="noopener noreferrer" target="_blank">APPLE PODCASTS</a><a href="https://open.spotify.com/show/2DLMqNqgKZTKyB8zcw5MF0?si=a5c9d1e15b6e4ac3" rel="noopener noreferrer" target="_blank">SPOTIFY</a>

Guest: Geoffrey van der VenGeoffrey van der Ven is a spoken word artist and theater maker known for his sharp, critical, and activist voice, particularly within the queer and BIPOC communities. He often focuses on bringing unheard stories to the forefront, especially those related to queer history and identity. He is recognized for his solo performance "Het is niet nieuw" ("It is not new"), which explores the queer history of Africa, and is currently working on a new show called "What's the Difference," which delves into queer shame.Geoffrey has received accolades such as the Poet of the Year award at the Queer & Feminist Poetry Awards and an honorable mention at Button Poetry. He has performed at major venues and events like the Nieuwe Luxor Theater, Rotterdam Pride, and the Amsterdam Fringe Festival. HIGHLIGHTS & TAKEAWAYS:KG: You have such an interesting career in product management. You also handle innovation and strategy consulting. You also are a huge advocate and a spoken artist and a speaker, just the name of you. Is there a red thread that ties all of these activities for you? What's the driving force behind all that you do?GEOFFREY: What I actually do at every company that I've ever worked at is I look at what we do, whether that's the systems that we use internally or the systems that we provide to our clients or users. And I see where it does and it doesn't work for the people that are using it. And then I take action because I get really itchy when I see something that doesn't work. Well, we can probably fix this so that I, come up with an idea. We test it and we fix it and we make it better.GEOFFREY: I think that human aspect is what seeps through also on the artist side of the story. I think that personal, human, there's always, the human, people are gonna be like, there's humans everywhere, but there's always the human thing, the human aspect of it, the human story, whether that's your own story or the story of your clients, that's always present.KG: What do the terms ethics and integrity mean to you?GEOFFREY: Integrity because I think that's the easiest one to carry. Do what is right. Not what's easy or what comes the fastest. Just do the right thing. Do the right thing with that responsibility. Come up for voices that don't have that stage. It's gonna sound very holier than thou, but speak to the greater good. Use your story in the right way and then be aware of the dynamics that are at play and of the space that you take and the space that someone you maybe shouldn't take or should pass over to someone else.GEOFFREY:  There's moments where you might have two user groups that have conflicting needs, or where despite all the right intentions, you have a line in a poem that does hurt someone or offend someone. I think that we need to get rid of that idea that there's no ambivalence in this. There can be multiple things that occur at the same time. But then again, I think it comes down to how you then deal with those situations.KG: Is there an example that you feel comfortable sharing where you navigate an ethical dilemma? And then maybe you can share what you learned from it in how to deal with these difficult conversations?GEOFFREY: I think that when it comes down to staying aligned with your values, that's easier for me to speak on.KG: Is there a blueprint in your mind where it's almost like an algorithm and that's how you find it fairly straightforward because that's consistent in everything you've said so far that in your mind it's a straightforward thing. Did you work on it to make it straightforward to unravel how we tend to over complicate things and worry? How did you get here?GEOFFREY: I am almost to a fault solution oriented as a person. And that's great and like 90 % of the time until I run into a problem that I cannot solve and then I crash. I think for me, after a while, I started working somewhere where I had a lot of agency, where I had a boss that went, or a line manager that said, do what you think is right, and if it's wrong, learn from it. Which was amazing, because for once I could see these innovation projects and these product management issues and go, this is what I think we should do. 90 % of what I think we should do is talk to the users. And not talking to the users is never an answer for me.GEOFFREY: Convincing people that you're right never works. Or sometimes it works, but then you win the argument and you lose the working relationship. It is worth convincing them that it's a path worth exploring.I think that honesty, that human side of the story, your own human side of the story, your willingness to take responsibility and admit that maybe you're not perfect and that if you're wrong, you will let them know that you're wrong. We miss that sometimes. But it aligns with a part of me about being open. And that part of me, that value of being open is what I carry through. The more that you start being honest and open about all aspects of your life, you also get to be honest and open in your work itself. And that starts, then things fall into place.KG: It sounds to me like what you're saying is one, it's actually quite straightforward to do the right thing. Keep in mind that it's the stakeholders who matter the most. If that's clear in your mind, sense of purpose, goal orientation, that's number one. Number two is to yourself be open, because if you're clear on what your goals are, you stay open and grounded and pragmatic about solution orientation. And number three, you seem to be saying is clarity in communication.KG: Is there anything you'd add to this list or anything that I've missed that you've shared already that would help early-career, mid-career product managers to successfully persuade people to follow their advice because you work with so many clients and organizations?GEOFFREY: Sit in the other people's chairs. I think everyone on any team can agree that as a company you have customers. And that as a company you want to make those customers happy, and you most likely want to get more customers. So whether you agree with me or not, we can agree on this. It's a shared value between yourself and your stakeholders. Keep whatever discussion you're having focused on that. It's not about me and it's not about you- keep it focused on that. And then look at that goal through the eyes of the people around you.GEOFFREY: I always, always, always have a problem backlog. It is a list of all issues that we know our customers experience with the product, of all problems that our customers have. Prioritized according to how many customers experience that problem and how frequently they experience that problem.GEOFFREY: We all agree, happy customers, more customers. So how do we make them happy? Solve these problems. Those are two things I want to add to that is empathy and prioritize the problems.KG:  Do you have any perspectives to share in terms of ethics and integrity? Customer orientation or user orientation in terms of responsible innovation or the future of this sector field?GEOFFREY: There will always be people that we're trying to make happy with our products, which means that you will always need an advocate for those people within companies to make sure that you're building your right product.GEOFFREY: I think in ethics, you end up in the same tale of just listen to your users. Learn to admit and see that everyone makes mistakes and everything can be wrong and consider the fact that you're working with people.KG: As a tech aficionado and perhaps a subject matter expert as well, are there examples in the public domain where you've observed companies or products are doing what you're recommending here?GEOFFREY: There was recently a company that I saw literally do this and it made me so happy. Cool Blue does this quite well. They have a really fun personality as a company. I think they do admit it when they're wrong. But mostly they go about everything with a sense of humor. I think another company that does this quite interestingly is The Nothing Phone. Their CEO literally on YouTube, like he records himself live watching reviews and responds to these reviews. And in some places he gives context for choices which I like because it's context for choice. So he's not excusing a problem or an issue. He's going, these are the constraints and these were the choices made based on those constraints, hence indeed this issue.GEOFFREY: I've had this as a product manager where you see a massive problem with your product and you don't have the resources to solve it within a week and you're like, it's big problem, but just being able to go to a customer, I'm gonna put in my best effort and attempt to help you. That already changes the interaction that you're having because it goes from the experience of you working against them and making their life harder for something that should be simpler to, okay, let me see if I can stand on your side of the story and help you. And even if I can't help you, maybe relieve some of your frustration.GEOFFREY: Every time I work with a development team, I need and want them to be able to read the interviews with the customers and to understand the customer's problem. First of all, you end up with creative solutions that anybody else on the team would have never thought of. And second of all, aligns them on the mission.GEOFFREY: The more empathy you have within your company towards the users that you're trying to solve problems for, the better that solution ends up being and the more motivated people end up being.KG: Is there a book, a quote, or any advice that you hold close to your heart right now and you'd like to share?GEOFFREY: I'm currently writing a theater show about shame. And to write that show, do research and part of the research was reading a book called Velvet Rage. This research on shame, it's incredible because you realize that it's present in so many layers of society and there's so many examples that you see and so many responses that people have to things.GEOFFREY: I think that we don't talk about shame, which is one of the mechanisms of shame is that we hide and we don't talk about it. And because we talk about it so little, it's not on our empathy radar. We very rarely go, what if they're ashamed? And that's why this is the response. And not talking about shame keeps shame intact. So that's a silence that I think we need to collectively break in order to make working together easier, in order to help you understand the world, in order to make makes life easier to have that extra little insight into this one emotion that we kind of keep aside and even when we do talk about shame we very frequently incorrectly define it so then we're still mischaracterizing it.REFERENCES & LINKS:GEOFFREY’s LinkedIN/Website pageLINKEDINGeoffrey van der VenGEOFFREY’s Book/Suggested ArticleVELVET RAGE by ALAN DOWNSThe Human Conversation Podcast ChannelsAPPLE PODCASTSSPOTIFY

The Human Conversation Podcast on Leadership and Ethics

The Human Conversation with Geoffrey van der Ven

<h1>Guest: Jessica Bensch</h1> Jessica Bensch is a global advocate for workplace transformation and the founder of Vanguard Voices, a movement dedicated to making psychological safety a non-negotiable standard across all industries. With decades of professional experience across continents and sectors, Jessica has witnessed firsthand that good intentions and isolated efforts are not enough to create meaningful change. True progress, she believes, demands collective responsibility and unwavering accountability from leaders, employees, and organizations alike.Having lived, worked, and traveled in nearly 40 countries, Jessica has developed a deep appreciation for the power of diversity—and the damage inflicted when voices are silenced. She knows that unchecked workplace abuse undermines creativity, erodes morale, and stifles organizational growth. Through Vanguard Voices, Jessica unites individuals and organizations around the world in a shared commitment to fostering cultures of true safety, inclusion, and accountability.For Jessica, this work is more than a career—it is her passion and life’s purpose. Driven by a powerful vision of change, she continues to lead the charge toward a future where psychological safety is not just an ideal but a universal reality.  <h3>HIGHLIGHTS & TAKEAWAYS:</h3><ul><li>JESSICA: I truly believe in creating environments where people can feel free to express their thoughts fully, openly, and contribute it meaningfully as well.</li><li>JESSICA: My work is all about removing the barriers that silence people. The fear, the bureaucracy, the unspoken rules that are keeping people from speaking up, like taking risks and also driving change. I truly believe that companies thrive when people are heard and valued and empowered. And I truly believe that changing our workplaces, particularly workplace culture, is not just an HR issue, it's an everybody issue. It involves all of us. It starts with leadership responsibility, but a collective movement is needed to ensure that we have those safe workplaces that I believe that everybody craves for.</li><li>JESSICA: Vanguard Voices is a not-for-profit association. Our laser focus is to bring the topic of psychological safety, that is where people can feel free to express their thoughts fully. Vanguard Voices was founded with the belief and the research that proves it, that psychological safety is foundational for our teams and our organizations to thrive.</li><li>KG: Can you share with us what inspired you to start it?</li><li>JESSICA: I think it was about seven, eight years ago, our company was going through a transformation. And at that time, the messaging that was coming through from, you know, as part of that transformation is that we need to be more bold, we need to be more courageous, we need to speak up. And I thought, that's great. And we started a grassroots effort within our company. We were doing speaking engagements, we were doing surveys and focus groups and sharing a lot of stories, not with the corporate jargon, but real, authentic stories were coming to the surface. And we were speaking to leaders at all levels. And at that time, we were seeing such momentum. With this effort because it was resonating. were really getting to the core of why people felt uncomfortable, generally speaking, of bringing their voice forward. And along the way, we were, of course, speaking with leaders at all levels, and we had tens of thousands who were following us.</li><li>JESSICA: What I learned is that fear is not at just one level at the organization, it's at all levels. And it was very difficult to kind of push everything through without engagement at the higher levels. And what I also learned was this is not a topic specific to one company. It's really a global topic. It's a human topic. And so with that understanding in mind, I thought, well, first of all, I can't let go of this passion and fire I have on this topic. And I want to make this bigger. And so that's why I founded Vanguard Voices with the pure belief that we can make change. We can link arms around the world and it will happen.</li><li>KG: What environment or context does it take for a person to come up with a truly original powerful idea and build that, nurture that into a global movement. What did it take for you to do that?</li><li>JESSICA: I just believe in treating everyone equally as human beings, eye to eye, not looking up, not looking down. And that's what fuels me forward. And I'm a big believer that as well that we all have a purpose and a purpose, know, I was born with a particular purpose to fulfill in life. And I believe everybody has their own purpose. I have discovered my purpose through this experience, you know, in corporate and now through Vanguard. And even though it's hard, even though there are lots of struggles along the way, I know I can't let this go because my values are too deep and my purpose is very much on my mind.</li><li>KG: What do the terms ethics and integrity mean to you in the context of all that you do?</li><li>JESSICA: Ethics and Integrity isn't just about doing the right thing. It's about doing it even when it's inconvenient and it's uncomfortable and even costly.</li><li>JESSICA: Integrity is about doing what we say we're going to do when no one's watching. And it's how we're handling hard decisions. It's the moments where we could easily take another way, but choose not to. Ethics, it means aligning what we say with what we do. It's words with action. And so it's not about words on a wall, like from a company perspective, values written on a wall, it's making sure that those values guide our decisions, even when it's hard.</li><li>KG: Have you observed any typical ethical dilemmas that professionals might face and what would your advice be to professionals on this?</li><li>JESSICA: One moment that stands out is when a leader who wanted to have a culture of openness in his team was unknowingly shutting down voices that were around him. He would say, I want open feedback. I want honest feedback. My door is always open. But the reality from his team's perspective was when people challenged him, there were some subtle consequences. So they were excluded from key conversations or decisions. Their ideas were dismissed in meetings and basically their confidence in raising their voice to him stalled.</li><li>JESSICA: I chose to be direct. And it wasn't easy because there was resistance at first. And over time, that leader realized that psychological safety wasn't just about asking for feedback, you also have to earn it. And so the most ethical thing to do in this situation for me that we can all do is tell the truth. And it goes back to telling the truth, speaking your truth, even when it's hard.</li><li>KG: What I'm receiving from you right now is that sometimes it might not feel safe to call something out. And it's okay if a person cannot do it directly and may choose to do it a little later and slightly more indirectly. But in this case, you made it clear that there was a choice you made. And so, you're saying that someone can assess in that situation and if they feel they can, call it out and if they need a little bit more time, that's okay. So would you like to share a little bit more about that?</li><li>JESSICA: Wisdom is needed. You need to sense, follow your intuition. We can usually sense when somebody is ready to receive feedback and is able to take it under the circumstances. What I often have found is when I've been direct, people come back and appreciate it. Many people like to receive kind of the reflection, you know, from the mirror. And that's sometimes what I provide. But there are others who may not be ready. And that's where that wisdom is needed.</li><li>KG: Are there some typical scenarios you notice where it triggers failure of psychological safety or trust in the workplace in general and workplaces as you coach leaders today? Classic scenarios. Can you also share any tips to professionals in these classic scenarios? How would you say it? How would you begin? What's the opening gambit to be honest and reflect the truth back to somebody, especially in situations where perhaps you don't feel like you have all the power?</li><li>ESSICA: The gap that I often see in companies is back to what they say and what they actually do. And so in companies, we often talk about inclusion. We talk about integrity. We talk about all these values, these beautiful values that are shown on the wall. We talk about them, but then some classic examples are when we're protecting the toxic performers. We encourage the feedback, but then we start to punish those who speak up. Another classic example is when there's a promise of transparency, but critical decisions are made behind closed doors. So this gap between what is said and what is done is really dangerous and it will damage the trust. And it just teaches people that what's said in public isn't really practice in reality.</li><li>JESSICA: The advice I would give is that leaders need to look in the mirror first. And invite, truly invite the feedback from others, but they need to also be looking at themselves and asking their questions to themselves like, are we truly modeling this ourselves? Where are we short, falling short? What's one action we can take today to align the words with reality? People trust what they see, not what they hear. That's essentially, I think, the work that's needed in companies today.</li><li>KG: I observed that this is also a great parallel to parenting too. You and I have both bonded over the fact that we're also parents and children too will trust you based on your actions and not your words. And so I think our outside personas and inside personas both need mindful attention to the fact that our actions speak way more loudly than our words do.</li><li>KG: As you said, people actually appreciate your honesty. What can we say or do that brings that reaction out of at least some of the people we interact with?</li><li>JESSICA: I am not somebody to focus on negatives. It's more, I'm a big believer in looking at their strengths and enhancing on those strengths. And if they are willing to go deeper and really working on one particular area, then I will meet them there. And provide some advice or some tips along the way.</li><li>JESSICA: I do have a comment though about providing feedback. It doesn't always feel safe to give feedback nor to receive feedback. And part of the reason why I started Vanguard is because I believe that in order for us to feel safe to give feedback, psychological safety, feeling free to express our thoughts, has to be prioritized and measured and monitored at all levels of the organization.</li><li>KG: Have you come across any technology or modality or assessment system that you have seen to be particularly effective? Have you seen anything that is surprisingly good?</li><li>JESSICA: There's different tools in terms of us as individuals, MBTI is a famous one. There's 16 personalities, there's strength binders. From an individual perspective, you can assess. I've seen other tools like learning circle profile, LCP, which is widely used in some of the corporates and where you have an opportunity to see what are your creative behaviors, when are you in the creative space versus in the reactive space. And here you get feedback from your team as well.</li><li>JESSICA: I like to have people be at ease. I want people to feel comfortable, but that feedback, again, if you know that psychological safety is there and we can be human and make those mistakes, the feedback is what will, from others, which will help us identify where we have maybe strayed and where we could make some correction.</li><li>KG: Are there any books or quotes that have been particularly amazing for you that you want to share with the audience of this podcast?</li><li>JESSICA: There is one book I absolutely love and it's from Mark Benioff, the CEO of Salesforce. And he wrote the book Trailblazer. And he says, values create value. If trust is our highest value, then we must earn it every day. And so to me, this is a powerful reminder that trust is not just a single moment, it's built through consistent action. And so every decision, whether it's big or small, leaders are either reinforcing that trust or either breaking it. There's no neutral ground. And so that's the real challenge and the responsibility of leadership.</li></ul> <h3>REFERENCES & LINKS:</h3>JESSICA’s LinkedIN/Website page<a href="https://www.linkedin.com/in/jessicabensch/" rel="noopener noreferrer" target="_blank" style="color: rgb(110, 119, 110);">LINKEDIN</a><a href="https://www.vanguardvoices.com/" rel="noopener noreferrer" target="_blank" style="color: rgb(110, 119, 110);">VANGUARD VOICES</a> JESSICA’s Book/Suggested Article<a href="https://www.amazon.com/Trailblazer-Business-Greatest-Platform-Change/dp/1984825194" rel="noopener noreferrer" target="_blank" style="color: rgb(110, 119, 110);">TRAILBLAZER BY MARC BENIOFF</a> The Human Conversation Podcast Channels<a href="https://podcasts.apple.com/us/podcast/the-human-conversation-podcast-on-leadership-and-ethics/id1736302989" rel="noopener noreferrer" target="_blank">APPLE PODCASTS</a><a href="https://open.spotify.com/show/2DLMqNqgKZTKyB8zcw5MF0?si=a5c9d1e15b6e4ac3" rel="noopener noreferrer" target="_blank">SPOTIFY</a>

Guest: Jessica BenschJessica Bensch is a global advocate for workplace transformation and the founder of Vanguard Voices, a movement dedicated to making psychological safety a non-negotiable standard across all industries. With decades of professional experience across continents and sectors, Jessica has witnessed firsthand that good intentions and isolated efforts are not enough to create meaningful change. True progress, she believes, demands collective responsibility and unwavering accountability from leaders, employees, and organizations alike.Having lived, worked, and traveled in nearly 40 countries, Jessica has developed a deep appreciation for the power of diversity—and the damage inflicted when voices are silenced. She knows that unchecked workplace abuse undermines creativity, erodes morale, and stifles organizational growth. Through Vanguard Voices, Jessica unites individuals and organizations around the world in a shared commitment to fostering cultures of true safety, inclusion, and accountability.For Jessica, this work is more than a career—it is her passion and life’s purpose. Driven by a powerful vision of change, she continues to lead the charge toward a future where psychological safety is not just an ideal but a universal reality. HIGHLIGHTS & TAKEAWAYS:JESSICA: I truly believe in creating environments where people can feel free to express their thoughts fully, openly, and contribute it meaningfully as well.JESSICA: My work is all about removing the barriers that silence people. The fear, the bureaucracy, the unspoken rules that are keeping people from speaking up, like taking risks and also driving change. I truly believe that companies thrive when people are heard and valued and empowered. And I truly believe that changing our workplaces, particularly workplace culture, is not just an HR issue, it's an everybody issue. It involves all of us. It starts with leadership responsibility, but a collective movement is needed to ensure that we have those safe workplaces that I believe that everybody craves for.JESSICA: Vanguard Voices is a not-for-profit association. Our laser focus is to bring the topic of psychological safety, that is where people can feel free to express their thoughts fully. Vanguard Voices was founded with the belief and the research that proves it, that psychological safety is foundational for our teams and our organizations to thrive.KG: Can you share with us what inspired you to start it?JESSICA: I think it was about seven, eight years ago, our company was going through a transformation. And at that time, the messaging that was coming through from, you know, as part of that transformation is that we need to be more bold, we need to be more courageous, we need to speak up. And I thought, that's great. And we started a grassroots effort within our company. We were doing speaking engagements, we were doing surveys and focus groups and sharing a lot of stories, not with the corporate jargon, but real, authentic stories were coming to the surface. And we were speaking to leaders at all levels. And at that time, we were seeing such momentum. With this effort because it was resonating. were really getting to the core of why people felt uncomfortable, generally speaking, of bringing their voice forward. And along the way, we were, of course, speaking with leaders at all levels, and we had tens of thousands who were following us.JESSICA: What I learned is that fear is not at just one level at the organization, it's at all levels. And it was very difficult to kind of push everything through without engagement at the higher levels. And what I also learned was this is not a topic specific to one company. It's really a global topic. It's a human topic. And so with that understanding in mind, I thought, well, first of all, I can't let go of this passion and fire I have on this topic. And I want to make this bigger. And so that's why I founded Vanguard Voices with the pure belief that we can make change. We can link arms around the world and it will happen.KG: What environment or context does it take for a person to come up with a truly original powerful idea and build that, nurture that into a global movement. What did it take for you to do that?JESSICA: I just believe in treating everyone equally as human beings, eye to eye, not looking up, not looking down. And that's what fuels me forward. And I'm a big believer that as well that we all have a purpose and a purpose, know, I was born with a particular purpose to fulfill in life. And I believe everybody has their own purpose. I have discovered my purpose through this experience, you know, in corporate and now through Vanguard. And even though it's hard, even though there are lots of struggles along the way, I know I can't let this go because my values are too deep and my purpose is very much on my mind.KG: What do the terms ethics and integrity mean to you in the context of all that you do?JESSICA: Ethics and Integrity isn't just about doing the right thing. It's about doing it even when it's inconvenient and it's uncomfortable and even costly.JESSICA: Integrity is about doing what we say we're going to do when no one's watching. And it's how we're handling hard decisions. It's the moments where we could easily take another way, but choose not to. Ethics, it means aligning what we say with what we do. It's words with action. And so it's not about words on a wall, like from a company perspective, values written on a wall, it's making sure that those values guide our decisions, even when it's hard.KG: Have you observed any typical ethical dilemmas that professionals might face and what would your advice be to professionals on this?JESSICA: One moment that stands out is when a leader who wanted to have a culture of openness in his team was unknowingly shutting down voices that were around him. He would say, I want open feedback. I want honest feedback. My door is always open. But the reality from his team's perspective was when people challenged him, there were some subtle consequences. So they were excluded from key conversations or decisions. Their ideas were dismissed in meetings and basically their confidence in raising their voice to him stalled.JESSICA: I chose to be direct. And it wasn't easy because there was resistance at first. And over time, that leader realized that psychological safety wasn't just about asking for feedback, you also have to earn it. And so the most ethical thing to do in this situation for me that we can all do is tell the truth. And it goes back to telling the truth, speaking your truth, even when it's hard.KG: What I'm receiving from you right now is that sometimes it might not feel safe to call something out. And it's okay if a person cannot do it directly and may choose to do it a little later and slightly more indirectly. But in this case, you made it clear that there was a choice you made. And so, you're saying that someone can assess in that situation and if they feel they can, call it out and if they need a little bit more time, that's okay. So would you like to share a little bit more about that?JESSICA: Wisdom is needed. You need to sense, follow your intuition. We can usually sense when somebody is ready to receive feedback and is able to take it under the circumstances. What I often have found is when I've been direct, people come back and appreciate it. Many people like to receive kind of the reflection, you know, from the mirror. And that's sometimes what I provide. But there are others who may not be ready. And that's where that wisdom is needed.KG: Are there some typical scenarios you notice where it triggers failure of psychological safety or trust in the workplace in general and workplaces as you coach leaders today? Classic scenarios. Can you also share any tips to professionals in these classic scenarios? How would you say it? How would you begin? What's the opening gambit to be honest and reflect the truth back to somebody, especially in situations where perhaps you don't feel like you have all the power?ESSICA: The gap that I often see in companies is back to what they say and what they actually do. And so in companies, we often talk about inclusion. We talk about integrity. We talk about all these values, these beautiful values that are shown on the wall. We talk about them, but then some classic examples are when we're protecting the toxic performers. We encourage the feedback, but then we start to punish those who speak up. Another classic example is when there's a promise of transparency, but critical decisions are made behind closed doors. So this gap between what is said and what is done is really dangerous and it will damage the trust. And it just teaches people that what's said in public isn't really practice in reality.JESSICA: The advice I would give is that leaders need to look in the mirror first. And invite, truly invite the feedback from others, but they need to also be looking at themselves and asking their questions to themselves like, are we truly modeling this ourselves? Where are we short, falling short? What's one action we can take today to align the words with reality? People trust what they see, not what they hear. That's essentially, I think, the work that's needed in companies today.KG: I observed that this is also a great parallel to parenting too. You and I have both bonded over the fact that we're also parents and children too will trust you based on your actions and not your words. And so I think our outside personas and inside personas both need mindful attention to the fact that our actions speak way more loudly than our words do.KG: As you said, people actually appreciate your honesty. What can we say or do that brings that reaction out of at least some of the people we interact with?JESSICA: I am not somebody to focus on negatives. It's more, I'm a big believer in looking at their strengths and enhancing on those strengths. And if they are willing to go deeper and really working on one particular area, then I will meet them there. And provide some advice or some tips along the way.JESSICA: I do have a comment though about providing feedback. It doesn't always feel safe to give feedback nor to receive feedback. And part of the reason why I started Vanguard is because I believe that in order for us to feel safe to give feedback, psychological safety, feeling free to express our thoughts, has to be prioritized and measured and monitored at all levels of the organization.KG: Have you come across any technology or modality or assessment system that you have seen to be particularly effective? Have you seen anything that is surprisingly good?JESSICA: There's different tools in terms of us as individuals, MBTI is a famous one. There's 16 personalities, there's strength binders. From an individual perspective, you can assess. I've seen other tools like learning circle profile, LCP, which is widely used in some of the corporates and where you have an opportunity to see what are your creative behaviors, when are you in the creative space versus in the reactive space. And here you get feedback from your team as well.JESSICA: I like to have people be at ease. I want people to feel comfortable, but that feedback, again, if you know that psychological safety is there and we can be human and make those mistakes, the feedback is what will, from others, which will help us identify where we have maybe strayed and where we could make some correction.KG: Are there any books or quotes that have been particularly amazing for you that you want to share with the audience of this podcast?JESSICA: There is one book I absolutely love and it's from Mark Benioff, the CEO of Salesforce. And he wrote the book Trailblazer. And he says, values create value. If trust is our highest value, then we must earn it every day. And so to me, this is a powerful reminder that trust is not just a single moment, it's built through consistent action. And so every decision, whether it's big or small, leaders are either reinforcing that trust or either breaking it. There's no neutral ground. And so that's the real challenge and the responsibility of leadership. REFERENCES & LINKS:JESSICA’s LinkedIN/Website pageLINKEDINVANGUARD VOICESJESSICA’s Book/Suggested ArticleTRAILBLAZER BY MARC BENIOFFThe Human Conversation Podcast ChannelsAPPLE PODCASTSSPOTIFY

The Human Conversation with Jessica Bensch

<h1>Guest: Dr. Nigel Paine</h1> ﻿Dr. Nigel Paine is a change-focused leader with a worldwide reputation and a unique grasp of media, learning and development in the public, private and academic sectors.He has extensive experience in leadership and consultancy with public service broadcasters, SMEs, global industry players, government and education institutions.Nigel focuses on the use of learning technologies, organisational development, leadership and creativity with a spotlight on maximising human potential, innovation and performance in the workplace. Nigel is a strategic thinker, able to motivate, lead and drive organisations forward to deliver business and training objectives.Nigel has been involved in corporate learning for over twenty years. He was appointed in April 2002 to head up the BBC’s Learning and Development operation. Under his leadership, the team developed a brand-new on-boarding experience, a comprehensive leadership development programme for over 6,000 staff, an award-winning intranet, and state of the art informal learning and knowledge sharing networks.He left the BBC in September 2006 to start his own company that is focused on building great workplaces by promoting creativity, innovation, values based-leadership and learning and the link between them.He speaks regularly at conferences around the world, and teaches on a doctoral programme at the University of Pennsylvania and for Chicago Booth Business School. His first book, The Learning Challenge: Dealing with Technology, Innovation and Change in Learning and Development was published in September 2014. His new book on Building Leadership Development Programmes That Work was published in November 2016. He is currently working on a new book re-examining learning organisations and learning culture. He recently co-authored an eBook introduction to Neuroscience for Learning.He has a Professorship from Napier University in Edinburgh, and is a Fellow of the CIPD, LPI, the RSA and a Masie Learning Fellow in the USA. He presents a monthly TV programme (Learning Now TV), shares a weekly podcast (with Martin Couzins) called From Scratch, and regularly writes articles for magazines and journals about development, technology and leadership.Nigel has written articles and white papers published on subjects as diverse as ‘Creativity in the Workplace’, ‘Building Corporate Heroes’ and ‘The Future of E-Learning’.  <h3>HIGHLIGHTS & TAKEAWAYS:</h3><ul><li>DR. NIGEL: One of the things that I've come more and more and more to believe is that I value decency and kindness. And I think organizations are far too harsh and toxic and do not value decency and kindness. And the research from the book really indicated that if you do not value decency and kindness, you will never get the best from your staff. You can flog them, you can force them, you can cajole them, but if you really want motivated staff, they need to have unsolicited, unconditional effort, and that comes from decency and kindness. Increasingly, that's my belief, and I don't care what anyone thinks. I'm promoting that, and I will continue to promote it.</li><li>DR. NIGEL: Even though some people think I'm being naive, I actually think I'm being realistic. Because the kind of world that we live in is so volatile, you can't get the best out of people by mistreating them and then saying, but give me your ideas, give me extra commitment. It doesn't happen. It doesn't happen.</li><li>KG: What do the terms ethics and integrity mean to you as you bring your expertise to the world?</li><li>DR. NIGEL: When I started my own company, I made three decisions which have been helped. The first decision was I would never work with people I didn't trust. The second decision was that I would not stick to doing the same old, same old, same old. I would develop and move forward and think it through. And the third was that I would try to help organizations become less toxic in whatever, by whatever, whatever route. And I've tried to do that. I've maybe failed a lot, but I've tried very hard to live by those values. And it's really an ethical approach.</li><li>DR. NIGEL: Integrity is very important to me. If I lose my integrity, I lose everything. If I lose a bit of money, I lose a bit of money. That's not the end of the world. I can get money back. I can't get my integrity back. So no one has ever tried to buy me or if they have, I've resisted it forcefully. And no one has tried to make me say things and no one has encouraged me to support bad treatment of staff or a bad culture. I'm trying to create a culture where people grow, learn, flourish and share.</li><li>DR. NIGEL: It's very important to me to have an ethical foundation and values. And I like organizations that have ethical foundations and values and they live by them. They don't just stick them on the wall, they actually live by them. So I think that's very important. I believe and nothing has ever shaken that belief that basically people are good and that people the vast majority want to do good work. </li><li>DR. NIGEL: I really genuinely believe that we can make work better, we can make work work, and we can have people who really enjoy going to work do fantastic work and increase productivity for the organization. Productivity and a decent workplace aren't contradictory, but some people think they are, and I don't understand. Because there's no evidence to show that they're right and I'm wrong. No evidence. There's more evidence to show that I'm right and they're wrong.</li><li>KG: Do you have any words of encouragement or advice for professionals who are not so powerful in those organizations, mid-level or early career?</li><li>DR. NIGEL: You can behave in your area with your team in a way that is noticeably different from the rest of the organization. So the fact that the organization behaves in a particular way doesn't stop you doing something different. And sometimes it's like a contagion that you set something up. You put a bit of bacteria in the organization, then it replicates, at some point it becomes unstoppable.</li><li>DR. NIGEL:  The minute you know consciously that this is not what you should be doing, walk away. Just walk away. However much they pay you, however much they say this is only temporary or whatever, because otherwise you'll get caught.</li><li>KG:  It occurs to me that social media and technology are rather skewed towards negative stories, the stories of hatred and fear tend to be more attractive and clickbait worthy. But in your extensive experience, would you say large organizations and professionals are more towards the spectrum of kindness and decency and creating psychological safety in workplaces. Would you say that's your observation?</li><li>DR. NIGEL: I think it's an increasing area of development in organizations. And it's not because they're just suddenly being do goody. We must do this to be good to people. They're doing it for very cynical, pragmatic reasons. If the more psychological safety, the more interaction, the more problem solving, the more creativity, the more productivity, it's all about getting the best out of people in the world.</li><li>DR. NIGEL: And if you're not comfortable, you know what to do. You walk away and don't let that slippery slope start occurring. We compromise a bit, compromise a bit more, compromise a bit more. And then suddenly you've crossed a line. So that line still exists. These decisions are being made every day all around the world in organizations. So you know what to do. You know what the right thing to do is. But if you can do it without damaging yourself, then that's the best thing.</li><li>DR. NIGEL: I don't believe in confrontation or holier than thou, in big moral high ground. I just believe in quietly walking away because that's the safest thing you can do. Disappearing basically.</li><li>KG: I think it is an excellent example of nonviolent communication and strategic conflict management because indeed it is counterproductive sometimes as professionals to be defiant and speak up in ways that burn bridges, you can certainly continue to do your work and speak up and establish a clean record for yourself while being polite.</li><li>KG: Do not bend your own principles. Make it clear what you will and will not accept, but continue to be polite and work while you might not see eye to eye with them on those activities, you're clearly outlining what you will and will not do. And therefore they know what to expect of you.</li><li>DR. NIGEL: People have to be conscious of the decisions they make and the impact. It's rather like Nonviolent Communication, that wonderful book that you've got to be conscious of the language you use and recognize the implications of the language you use. And it's learning something, that things that were invisible suddenly become visible. And I think that's what this is all about. It's making it visible and bring it to the fore of your consciousness, not stick it in the back of your consciousness so you don't notice it.</li><li>KG:  What are your observations on ethical dilemmas most relevant today? And what's your advice to leaders and professionals in these situations?</li><li>DR. NIGEL: I just think as a leader, a leader who does not behave ethically, corrupts the whole organization. So I think you have a special responsibility and you may be under the most pressure. And we all know about ways that organizations do things that are not incredibly wrong, but are on the edge. I think if I'm a leader, I've got to have a clear indicator of what I believe. And I make sure the whole organization knows what I believe as well, so that you don't get people further down the organization misbehaving. But if I misbehave, I have no justification whatsoever for stopping anyone else misbehaving. And you tend to find these things cascade. So weakness at the top, ends up weakness throughout the whole organization. Strength at the top, strength all the way through the organization. people need to be proud to work for you. And if they think you're a bit of a scumbag, that you've got very dubious ethics, not much in the way of morals, it's very hard to work your heart out and do your best for someone like that, always. And I always say to leaders, be aware, not of what you say. People say the right thing usually, but be aware that everyone notices what you do. And don't be naive and think that you can do what you like and no one notices. Everybody notices. Everybody notices. So by your actions, are you defined, not by your words, because there can be a massive gap between words and actions. And that's very, very important. And the more the gap between words and actions exists, the more people talk about it, the lower the organization will be pulled, I think.</li><li>KG: The integrity gap, that's such a powerful thing. That line, you're defined by your actions, not by your words.</li><li>KG: What is your favorite quote or book or advice that inspired you? Would you like to share that with the audience?</li><li>DR. NIGEL: Someone quoted Theodore Roosevelt and it's such a simple quote, but it really really affected me and it's a kind of the thing I live by and it said that “The fundamental role of our natural life or the rule which underlines all others is that on the whole and in the long run we shall go up or down together.”</li><li>DR. NIGEL: I love that idea that we are all in it together and I will be in an organization where as if the people at the top rise, everybody rises. If I rise, so does everyone else. That idea that we're connected, that we're part of a community and that we're not all on our own or I can disengage my success from everyone else's. So I can treat people brutally and be successful. I think that's a very short term view of the world. So I think it is a fundamental rule.</li><li>DR. NIGEL: GE used to have a quote in their leadership center in Cronenberg and it said, in a rising tide, all boats rise. I completely agree with that. You can be a massive ship or a little boat, little rowing boat. You all rise as the tide rises. And that's what you need to ensure, that you are building a rising tide and that you will ensure that all boats rise, all ships rise. So that quote really goes to the heart of what I believe.</li><li>KG:  How do you maintain the great quality of your writing and thought leadership?</li><li>DR. NIGEL: Don't write when I know something. I write when I don't know something. So therefore, I'm plagued by curiosity and doubt and worries. And that's what prompts my writing. So I want to answer a question. I've always got a question. someone said, I don't write when I understand. I write to understand. And that's exactly the same as me. There's always a dilemma at the heart of all of my books. And that's what drives me on. It's like an itch. I need to know, I need to understand that. And when I start researching it and I start to come up with ideas, I then have a compulsion to write them down. So I write a lot.</li><li>DR. NIGEL: Writing is a habit in a way. If I have to write something, I can just write it. I don't need to worry. I never worry that I can't write. But a lot of people say, but how do you get started? And the answer is you get started by writing. You start writing, that's how you get started. And you just put words on a page and if they're rubbish, I write myself into understanding. So sometimes I write and write and write and at the end of the day, I discard everything apart from the last paragraph because that's my starting point. And that's okay. You write to edit to discard. You don't write to make it perfect. I don't agonize over a single sentence. I just keep writing. And if my writing is terrible, I just throw it away and start again. Because some days your writing will be terrible and some days your writing will be really something you can be proud of. But you can't predict it. But the only thing you can predict is if you write, you will end up writing something. It's as simple as that. </li></ul> <h3>REFERENCES & LINKS:</h3> DR. NIGEL’s LinkedIN/Website page<a href="https://www.linkedin.com/in/nigelpaine/" rel="noopener noreferrer" target="_blank" style="color: rgb(89, 93, 112);">LINKEDIN</a><a href="https://www.nigelpaine.com/" rel="noopener noreferrer" target="_blank" style="color: rgb(89, 93, 112);">NIGELPAINE</a> DR. NIGEL’s Book/Suggested Article<a href="https://ldaccelerator.com/great-reset" rel="noopener noreferrer" target="_blank" style="color: rgb(89, 93, 112);">THE GREAT RESET</a><a href="https://www.amazon.com/Nonviolent-Communication-Language-Life-Changing-Relationships/dp/189200528X" rel="noopener noreferrer" target="_blank" style="color: rgb(89, 93, 112);">NONVIOLENT COMMUNICATION</a> The Human Conversation Podcast Channels<a href="https://podcasts.apple.com/us/podcast/the-human-conversation-podcast-on-leadership-and-ethics/id1736302989" rel="noopener noreferrer" target="_blank" style="color: rgb(89, 93, 112);">APPLE PODCASTS</a><a href="https://open.spotify.com/show/2DLMqNqgKZTKyB8zcw5MF0?si=a5c9d1e15b6e4ac3" rel="noopener noreferrer" target="_blank" style="color: rgb(89, 93, 112);">SPOTIFY</a>

Guest: Dr. Nigel Paine﻿Dr. Nigel Paine is a change-focused leader with a worldwide reputation and a unique grasp of media, learning and development in the public, private and academic sectors.He has extensive experience in leadership and consultancy with public service broadcasters, SMEs, global industry players, government and education institutions.Nigel focuses on the use of learning technologies, organisational development, leadership and creativity with a spotlight on maximising human potential, innovation and performance in the workplace. Nigel is a strategic thinker, able to motivate, lead and drive organisations forward to deliver business and training objectives.Nigel has been involved in corporate learning for over twenty years. He was appointed in April 2002 to head up the BBC’s Learning and Development operation. Under his leadership, the team developed a brand-new on-boarding experience, a comprehensive leadership development programme for over 6,000 staff, an award-winning intranet, and state of the art informal learning and knowledge sharing networks.He left the BBC in September 2006 to start his own company that is focused on building great workplaces by promoting creativity, innovation, values based-leadership and learning and the link between them.He speaks regularly at conferences around the world, and teaches on a doctoral programme at the University of Pennsylvania and for Chicago Booth Business School. His first book, The Learning Challenge: Dealing with Technology, Innovation and Change in Learning and Development was published in September 2014. His new book on Building Leadership Development Programmes That Work was published in November 2016. He is currently working on a new book re-examining learning organisations and learning culture. He recently co-authored an eBook introduction to Neuroscience for Learning.He has a Professorship from Napier University in Edinburgh, and is a Fellow of the CIPD, LPI, the RSA and a Masie Learning Fellow in the USA. He presents a monthly TV programme (Learning Now TV), shares a weekly podcast (with Martin Couzins) called From Scratch, and regularly writes articles for magazines and journals about development, technology and leadership.Nigel has written articles and white papers published on subjects as diverse as ‘Creativity in the Workplace’, ‘Building Corporate Heroes’ and ‘The Future of E-Learning’. HIGHLIGHTS & TAKEAWAYS:DR. NIGEL: One of the things that I've come more and more and more to believe is that I value decency and kindness. And I think organizations are far too harsh and toxic and do not value decency and kindness. And the research from the book really indicated that if you do not value decency and kindness, you will never get the best from your staff. You can flog them, you can force them, you can cajole them, but if you really want motivated staff, they need to have unsolicited, unconditional effort, and that comes from decency and kindness. Increasingly, that's my belief, and I don't care what anyone thinks. I'm promoting that, and I will continue to promote it.DR. NIGEL: Even though some people think I'm being naive, I actually think I'm being realistic. Because the kind of world that we live in is so volatile, you can't get the best out of people by mistreating them and then saying, but give me your ideas, give me extra commitment. It doesn't happen. It doesn't happen.KG: What do the terms ethics and integrity mean to you as you bring your expertise to the world?DR. NIGEL: When I started my own company, I made three decisions which have been helped. The first decision was I would never work with people I didn't trust. The second decision was that I would not stick to doing the same old, same old, same old. I would develop and move forward and think it through. And the third was that I would try to help organizations become less toxic in whatever, by whatever, whatever route. And I've tried to do that. I've maybe failed a lot, but I've tried very hard to live by those values. And it's really an ethical approach.DR. NIGEL: Integrity is very important to me. If I lose my integrity, I lose everything. If I lose a bit of money, I lose a bit of money. That's not the end of the world. I can get money back. I can't get my integrity back. So no one has ever tried to buy me or if they have, I've resisted it forcefully. And no one has tried to make me say things and no one has encouraged me to support bad treatment of staff or a bad culture. I'm trying to create a culture where people grow, learn, flourish and share.DR. NIGEL: It's very important to me to have an ethical foundation and values. And I like organizations that have ethical foundations and values and they live by them. They don't just stick them on the wall, they actually live by them. So I think that's very important. I believe and nothing has ever shaken that belief that basically people are good and that people the vast majority want to do good work. DR. NIGEL: I really genuinely believe that we can make work better, we can make work work, and we can have people who really enjoy going to work do fantastic work and increase productivity for the organization. Productivity and a decent workplace aren't contradictory, but some people think they are, and I don't understand. Because there's no evidence to show that they're right and I'm wrong. No evidence. There's more evidence to show that I'm right and they're wrong.KG: Do you have any words of encouragement or advice for professionals who are not so powerful in those organizations, mid-level or early career?DR. NIGEL: You can behave in your area with your team in a way that is noticeably different from the rest of the organization. So the fact that the organization behaves in a particular way doesn't stop you doing something different. And sometimes it's like a contagion that you set something up. You put a bit of bacteria in the organization, then it replicates, at some point it becomes unstoppable.DR. NIGEL:  The minute you know consciously that this is not what you should be doing, walk away. Just walk away. However much they pay you, however much they say this is only temporary or whatever, because otherwise you'll get caught.KG:  It occurs to me that social media and technology are rather skewed towards negative stories, the stories of hatred and fear tend to be more attractive and clickbait worthy. But in your extensive experience, would you say large organizations and professionals are more towards the spectrum of kindness and decency and creating psychological safety in workplaces. Would you say that's your observation?DR. NIGEL: I think it's an increasing area of development in organizations. And it's not because they're just suddenly being do goody. We must do this to be good to people. They're doing it for very cynical, pragmatic reasons. If the more psychological safety, the more interaction, the more problem solving, the more creativity, the more productivity, it's all about getting the best out of people in the world.DR. NIGEL: And if you're not comfortable, you know what to do. You walk away and don't let that slippery slope start occurring. We compromise a bit, compromise a bit more, compromise a bit more. And then suddenly you've crossed a line. So that line still exists. These decisions are being made every day all around the world in organizations. So you know what to do. You know what the right thing to do is. But if you can do it without damaging yourself, then that's the best thing.DR. NIGEL: I don't believe in confrontation or holier than thou, in big moral high ground. I just believe in quietly walking away because that's the safest thing you can do. Disappearing basically.KG: I think it is an excellent example of nonviolent communication and strategic conflict management because indeed it is counterproductive sometimes as professionals to be defiant and speak up in ways that burn bridges, you can certainly continue to do your work and speak up and establish a clean record for yourself while being polite.KG: Do not bend your own principles. Make it clear what you will and will not accept, but continue to be polite and work while you might not see eye to eye with them on those activities, you're clearly outlining what you will and will not do. And therefore they know what to expect of you.DR. NIGEL: People have to be conscious of the decisions they make and the impact. It's rather like Nonviolent Communication, that wonderful book that you've got to be conscious of the language you use and recognize the implications of the language you use. And it's learning something, that things that were invisible suddenly become visible. And I think that's what this is all about. It's making it visible and bring it to the fore of your consciousness, not stick it in the back of your consciousness so you don't notice it.KG:  What are your observations on ethical dilemmas most relevant today? And what's your advice to leaders and professionals in these situations?DR. NIGEL: I just think as a leader, a leader who does not behave ethically, corrupts the whole organization. So I think you have a special responsibility and you may be under the most pressure. And we all know about ways that organizations do things that are not incredibly wrong, but are on the edge. I think if I'm a leader, I've got to have a clear indicator of what I believe. And I make sure the whole organization knows what I believe as well, so that you don't get people further down the organization misbehaving. But if I misbehave, I have no justification whatsoever for stopping anyone else misbehaving. And you tend to find these things cascade. So weakness at the top, ends up weakness throughout the whole organization. Strength at the top, strength all the way through the organization. people need to be proud to work for you. And if they think you're a bit of a scumbag, that you've got very dubious ethics, not much in the way of morals, it's very hard to work your heart out and do your best for someone like that, always. And I always say to leaders, be aware, not of what you say. People say the right thing usually, but be aware that everyone notices what you do. And don't be naive and think that you can do what you like and no one notices. Everybody notices. Everybody notices. So by your actions, are you defined, not by your words, because there can be a massive gap between words and actions. And that's very, very important. And the more the gap between words and actions exists, the more people talk about it, the lower the organization will be pulled, I think.KG: The integrity gap, that's such a powerful thing. That line, you're defined by your actions, not by your words.KG: What is your favorite quote or book or advice that inspired you? Would you like to share that with the audience?DR. NIGEL: Someone quoted Theodore Roosevelt and it's such a simple quote, but it really really affected me and it's a kind of the thing I live by and it said that “The fundamental role of our natural life or the rule which underlines all others is that on the whole and in the long run we shall go up or down together.”DR. NIGEL: I love that idea that we are all in it together and I will be in an organization where as if the people at the top rise, everybody rises. If I rise, so does everyone else. That idea that we're connected, that we're part of a community and that we're not all on our own or I can disengage my success from everyone else's. So I can treat people brutally and be successful. I think that's a very short term view of the world. So I think it is a fundamental rule.DR. NIGEL: GE used to have a quote in their leadership center in Cronenberg and it said, in a rising tide, all boats rise. I completely agree with that. You can be a massive ship or a little boat, little rowing boat. You all rise as the tide rises. And that's what you need to ensure, that you are building a rising tide and that you will ensure that all boats rise, all ships rise. So that quote really goes to the heart of what I believe.KG:  How do you maintain the great quality of your writing and thought leadership?DR. NIGEL: Don't write when I know something. I write when I don't know something. So therefore, I'm plagued by curiosity and doubt and worries. And that's what prompts my writing. So I want to answer a question. I've always got a question. someone said, I don't write when I understand. I write to understand. And that's exactly the same as me. There's always a dilemma at the heart of all of my books. And that's what drives me on. It's like an itch. I need to know, I need to understand that. And when I start researching it and I start to come up with ideas, I then have a compulsion to write them down. So I write a lot.DR. NIGEL: Writing is a habit in a way. If I have to write something, I can just write it. I don't need to worry. I never worry that I can't write. But a lot of people say, but how do you get started? And the answer is you get started by writing. You start writing, that's how you get started. And you just put words on a page and if they're rubbish, I write myself into understanding. So sometimes I write and write and write and at the end of the day, I discard everything apart from the last paragraph because that's my starting point. And that's okay. You write to edit to discard. You don't write to make it perfect. I don't agonize over a single sentence. I just keep writing. And if my writing is terrible, I just throw it away and start again. Because some days your writing will be terrible and some days your writing will be really something you can be proud of. But you can't predict it. But the only thing you can predict is if you write, you will end up writing something. It's as simple as that. REFERENCES & LINKS:DR. NIGEL’s LinkedIN/Website pageLINKEDINNIGELPAINEDR. NIGEL’s Book/Suggested ArticleTHE GREAT RESETNONVIOLENT COMMUNICATIONThe Human Conversation Podcast ChannelsAPPLE PODCASTSSPOTIFY

The Human Conversation with Dr. Nigel Paine

<h1>Guest: Lenora Billings-Harris</h1> Lenora Billings-Harris, is the founder and CEO of Critical Voices Initiative, a not-for-profit movement that helps people from all walks of life use honest words to open minds that build stronger communities. Before founding that organization, she held leadership positions within two Fortune 100 companies and a major university. Next Lenora worked for over 35 years as a diversity and inclusion strategist and specialized in helping organizations make diversity equity and inclusion a competitive advantage by disrupting bias. She is the author of two books, and numerous articles, and she is included among the top 100 thought leaders on diversity by the Society of Human Resource Management. Lenora is a past president of the Global Speakers Federation, and past president of the National Speakers Association-USA – the first African American to hold those positions. In 2022 she received an honorary PhD for her research and global work, and in 2024 she received the International Ambassador Award in recognition of her impact around the world. Lenora was inducted into the Speakers Hall of Fame in 2018- again a first, as an African American woman. Although she has been the first at many things, her joy comes when she sees she is not the last.  <h3>HIGHLIGHTS & TAKEAWAYS:</h3> <ul><li>KG: Is there a red thread that ties all of it together for you?What's the driving force behind all that you do and all that you've done?</li><li>LENORA: I went to South Africa for three weeks at a time, twice a year for several years. And on one of those trips, I learned the proverb Ubuntu. Ubuntu, which is a sort of philosophy through many African countries, but I learned it in South Africa and it's a Zulu tradition and it means I am because we are. And when I learned that, I had just learned my purpose on this planet. I really felt that what it signifies is that we not only are all connected as human beings, what I do impacts you and what you do impacts me, regardless of whether we know each other. It just struck me to my core. And so my business has always... used Ubuntu as a foundation. So as it relates to the question of mentoring and speaking and writing books, my belief is that most people will do better when they know better, not everybody, but most people. And from a Ubuntu perspective, if I can, as a diversity strategist, as a speaker, et cetera, if I can help my audiences understand people different from them more readily, then perhaps we all will get along better. Perhaps we all will understand each other better. Obviously that's not what I say from the platform, even when I'm writing about it, I don't actually say it quite that way. But that is what comes from my heart. And that's what motivates me to do what I do. </li><li>KG: How do you also maintain your own individuality and protect your own inner flame? In other words, I have seen you walk that path so beautifully in feeling that sense of connectedness while also maintaining your own sense of integrity and ethics, especially when the world is such a layered, complex place and there's so many wicked problems that I know you've been involved in trying to solve and bring to resolution. And so in that context, what do the terms ethics and integrity mean to you? </li><li>LENORA: What ethics really mean is that I will do the right thing, whatever I deem to be the right thing. I will do the right thing, even when no one's watching. Because as you know, ethics and the law are not the same thing. So it's not about not breaking the law. Ethics is what is the right thing to do? Integrity to me means doing what I promised to do. So being willing to not over promise. And what you had asked me earlier is, how do I do all of that and still be an individual? And my honest answer is I only know how to do me.</li><li>LENORA: What I have come to know now having been doing this work for so long and given my age, we are our most powerful self when we are being who we are. And each of us is an individual, there's no two of us alike. We all know that. But it sometimes takes a while to figure out what that is. </li><li>LENORA: What I learned over time was to pay attention to the way other people describe me so that I can pick from those descriptions what really fits for me. For me, it has become easier over time to be more comfortable being who I am, doing what I think is right for me and for others, and being more intentional on setting boundaries. That helps me stay in my individual space and in my life. </li><li>KG: I know that you too are working on ethics right now. Can you tell us a little bit about the role you're currently involved in?</li><li>LENORA: I have been a member of the National Speakers Association for many years and have been fortunate to sit in various leadership positions, including having been a past president of the association. And for those of you listening and watching that are not familiar with the National Speakers Association, it is an organization for people who use the spoken word for part of or all of their income. And when I say spoken word, actually it's broader than that. So it's really for people who write books, who have podcasts, who deliver keynotes, workshops, our consultants, all of those things that surround using words, so to speak, as part of your enterprise and our organization not only teaches people how to be more effective on the platform, is the way we would describe it. That platform could be a book or it could be a podcast, again, whatever, whatever avenue you take. Also, our real focus is to help people know how to do this as a business. </li><li>LENORA: We as leaders, we need to be clear about what our own personal values are. And we need to be clear about what the organization's values are. And so often, although my area of focus is not ethics, so often when I'm doing my own research, that are relative to inclusion and equity and that type of thing. And I ask people, what's the organization's values? They don't know. And even when I ask leaders that, it is written somewhere, but it's so obtuse that no one really knows it. When we don't know what our values are, we have no guidance on what our behavior should be. </li><li>LENORA: Some people really don't care about the good of everyone. They're still stuck in their ego. But if we could just get clear on what your values are, and it takes some work to get clear on your values... It's not just what other people say. It may not even be what your parents or guardians might've taught you, but it is worth the work to be with yourself and identify what's really important to you, because that then can guide the rest of your behavior. </li><li>KG: Both as a leadership consultant and advisor to many organizations, but also as an acclaimed speaker, what do you feel are ethical dilemmas most relevant to leaders today? And what would your advice be in such situations?</li><li>LENORA: Some people are so stuck with the short term, what they believe is the short term immediate reward for doing things that clearly long term will hurt many. I struggle with why that is such a difficult decision to make. And one of the things that I've chosen to do, in helping people get clarity around that.</li><li>LENORA: Today's leaders are so pressed to produce whatever it is they're supposed to produce. They are not taking the time to get a perspective from more than one viewpoint. And consequently, it's raising their stress level. It certainly raises the stress level of others. And to do that, to have the willingness to get more information, to listen to different perspectives, to talk to different people, means you have to have a beginner's mindset. That is to say, when you reach out to someone whose perspective might be different than yours, your job, especially as a leader, is to listen, not just wait for the period at the end of the sentence so you can jump in and try to convince them that they're wrong. </li><li>LENORA: What I have decided to do personally is to help people have critical and difficult conversations. To teach them the skills to have those conversations because what I've learned over time, when I used to ask the question, and I've asked this to thousands of people at this point: “So what holds you back from speaking, having a conversation, a dialogue about diversity or racism or sexism or any of those isms, what holds you back?” And the answers always are, I don't know the right thing to say, I'm afraid I'm going to be judged. And by the way, we're gonna be judged anyway, because human beings can't not judge other people. So we're gonna be judged. So we might as well let that one go. But I don't know the right thing to say, I'm afraid I'm going to be judged. And I don't want to hurt the other person's feelings. Well, if we had better skills for these difficult conversations, we wouldn't have so much anxiety because we could go into those conversations by really being curious rather than judgmental with the intention of coming out knowing more than we did when we went in. </li><li>KG: Can you tell me how you have always done this balance so beautifully, where you are an appreciative inquirer into other people's ways of thinking while also holding your own sense of self so firmly? and with such clarity. I think that's a thing of beauty. So is there a book, quote, anything that inspires you, encapsulates your philosophy towards this? </li><li>LENORA: The first one is speak up even when your voice cracks. That is, don't be silent because you think other people are going to judge you or that type of thing. Now, of course, I mean, speak up with respect and that type of thing. I'm not advocating being cruel in any way, but be willing to speak up because your voice is needed. And speak up even when your voice is cracked, of course, means even when you're afraid. That piggybacks on my favorite quote by Marianne Williamson. Now she's written up, it's a whole long piece, but the part of it that resonates most with me is, and I'll paraphrase it because I know I won't get it exactly right, but she says, playing small serves no one. Let your life light shine, let your light shine. </li><li>LENORA: As I have gotten older, I realize I have no one else to please but myself. And at the end of the day, I have to be happy with who I am. Speaking up, though my voice might crack, speaking up comes in many different ways. So it's not necessarily always verbalizing. It certainly doesn't mean that the moment something happens that you disagree with, that you jump right in, you have to pick your battles and also the timing to, you know, to manage your, manage your emotions. But for Marianne Williamson's quote, playing small does not serve anyone so often, especially as women. We're socialized to play small. We're socialized to let other people's light shine and not ours too much because it might outshine someone else. Well, guess what? There's plenty of space on this planet for all of us to shine. </li><li>LENORA: My friend, Jana Stanfield wrote a song that you can find it on YouTube. And the song is, All the Good is the name of the song. And the refrain that just keeps repeating in it is, I can't do all the good that the world needs, but the world needs all the good I can do.</li></ul> <h3>REFERENCES & LINKS:</h3> LENORA’s LinkedIN/Website page <a href="https://www.linkedin.com/in/lbillingsharris/" rel="noopener noreferrer" target="_blank">LINKEDIN</a><a href="https://ubuntuglobal.com/" rel="noopener noreferrer" target="_blank">UbuntuGlobal</a><a href="https://www.criticalvoicesinitiative.org/" rel="noopener noreferrer" target="_blank">CRITICAL VOICES INITIATIVE</a> LENORA’s Suggested Song/Quote<a href="https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hE6cZeIzapE" rel="noopener noreferrer" target="_blank">ALL THE GOOD</a><a href="https://www.goodreads.com/quotes/9237876-your-playing-small-does-not-serve-the-world-there-is#:~:text=Sign%20Up%20Now-,Your%20playing%20small%20does%20not%20serve%20the%20world.,to%20shine%2C%20as%20children%20do." rel="noopener noreferrer" target="_blank">MARIANNE WILLIAMSON</a> The Human Conversation Podcast Channels<a href="https://podcasts.apple.com/us/podcast/the-human-conversation-podcast-on-leadership-and-ethics/id1736302989" rel="noopener noreferrer" target="_blank" style="color: rgb(89, 93, 112);">APPLE PODCASTS</a><a href="https://open.spotify.com/show/2DLMqNqgKZTKyB8zcw5MF0?si=a5c9d1e15b6e4ac3" rel="noopener noreferrer" target="_blank" style="color: rgb(89, 93, 112);">SPOTIFY</a>

Guest: Lenora Billings-HarrisLenora Billings-Harris, is the founder and CEO of Critical Voices Initiative, a not-for-profit movement that helps people from all walks of life use honest words to open minds that build stronger communities. Before founding that organization, she held leadership positions within two Fortune 100 companies and a major university. Next Lenora worked for over 35 years as a diversity and inclusion strategist and specialized in helping organizations make diversity equity and inclusion a competitive advantage by disrupting bias. She is the author of two books, and numerous articles, and she is included among the top 100 thought leaders on diversity by the Society of Human Resource Management. Lenora is a past president of the Global Speakers Federation, and past president of the National Speakers Association-USA – the first African American to hold those positions.In 2022 she received an honorary PhD for her research and global work, and in 2024 she received the International Ambassador Award in recognition of her impact around the world. Lenora was inducted into the Speakers Hall of Fame in 2018- again a first, as an African American woman.Although she has been the first at many things, her joy comes when she sees she is not the last. HIGHLIGHTS & TAKEAWAYS:KG: Is there a red thread that ties all of it together for you?What's the driving force behind all that you do and all that you've done?LENORA: I went to South Africa for three weeks at a time, twice a year for several years. And on one of those trips, I learned the proverb Ubuntu. Ubuntu, which is a sort of philosophy through many African countries, but I learned it in South Africa and it's a Zulu tradition and it means I am because we are. And when I learned that, I had just learned my purpose on this planet. I really felt that what it signifies is that we not only are all connected as human beings, what I do impacts you and what you do impacts me, regardless of whether we know each other. It just struck me to my core. And so my business has always... used Ubuntu as a foundation. So as it relates to the question of mentoring and speaking and writing books, my belief is that most people will do better when they know better, not everybody, but most people. And from a Ubuntu perspective, if I can, as a diversity strategist, as a speaker, et cetera, if I can help my audiences understand people different from them more readily, then perhaps we all will get along better. Perhaps we all will understand each other better. Obviously that's not what I say from the platform, even when I'm writing about it, I don't actually say it quite that way. But that is what comes from my heart. And that's what motivates me to do what I do. KG: How do you also maintain your own individuality and protect your own inner flame? In other words, I have seen you walk that path so beautifully in feeling that sense of connectedness while also maintaining your own sense of integrity and ethics, especially when the world is such a layered, complex place and there's so many wicked problems that I know you've been involved in trying to solve and bring to resolution. And so in that context, what do the terms ethics and integrity mean to you? LENORA: What ethics really mean is that I will do the right thing, whatever I deem to be the right thing. I will do the right thing, even when no one's watching. Because as you know, ethics and the law are not the same thing. So it's not about not breaking the law. Ethics is what is the right thing to do? Integrity to me means doing what I promised to do. So being willing to not over promise. And what you had asked me earlier is, how do I do all of that and still be an individual? And my honest answer is I only know how to do me.LENORA: What I have come to know now having been doing this work for so long and given my age, we are our most powerful self when we are being who we are. And each of us is an individual, there's no two of us alike. We all know that. But it sometimes takes a while to figure out what that is. LENORA: What I learned over time was to pay attention to the way other people describe me so that I can pick from those descriptions what really fits for me. For me, it has become easier over time to be more comfortable being who I am, doing what I think is right for me and for others, and being more intentional on setting boundaries. That helps me stay in my individual space and in my life. KG: I know that you too are working on ethics right now. Can you tell us a little bit about the role you're currently involved in?LENORA: I have been a member of the National Speakers Association for many years and have been fortunate to sit in various leadership positions, including having been a past president of the association. And for those of you listening and watching that are not familiar with the National Speakers Association, it is an organization for people who use the spoken word for part of or all of their income. And when I say spoken word, actually it's broader than that. So it's really for people who write books, who have podcasts, who deliver keynotes, workshops, our consultants, all of those things that surround using words, so to speak, as part of your enterprise and our organization not only teaches people how to be more effective on the platform, is the way we would describe it. That platform could be a book or it could be a podcast, again, whatever, whatever avenue you take. Also, our real focus is to help people know how to do this as a business. LENORA: We as leaders, we need to be clear about what our own personal values are. And we need to be clear about what the organization's values are. And so often, although my area of focus is not ethics, so often when I'm doing my own research, that are relative to inclusion and equity and that type of thing. And I ask people, what's the organization's values? They don't know. And even when I ask leaders that, it is written somewhere, but it's so obtuse that no one really knows it. When we don't know what our values are, we have no guidance on what our behavior should be. LENORA: Some people really don't care about the good of everyone. They're still stuck in their ego. But if we could just get clear on what your values are, and it takes some work to get clear on your values... It's not just what other people say. It may not even be what your parents or guardians might've taught you, but it is worth the work to be with yourself and identify what's really important to you, because that then can guide the rest of your behavior. KG: Both as a leadership consultant and advisor to many organizations, but also as an acclaimed speaker, what do you feel are ethical dilemmas most relevant to leaders today? And what would your advice be in such situations?LENORA: Some people are so stuck with the short term, what they believe is the short term immediate reward for doing things that clearly long term will hurt many. I struggle with why that is such a difficult decision to make. And one of the things that I've chosen to do, in helping people get clarity around that.LENORA: Today's leaders are so pressed to produce whatever it is they're supposed to produce. They are not taking the time to get a perspective from more than one viewpoint. And consequently, it's raising their stress level. It certainly raises the stress level of others. And to do that, to have the willingness to get more information, to listen to different perspectives, to talk to different people, means you have to have a beginner's mindset. That is to say, when you reach out to someone whose perspective might be different than yours, your job, especially as a leader, is to listen, not just wait for the period at the end of the sentence so you can jump in and try to convince them that they're wrong. LENORA: What I have decided to do personally is to help people have critical and difficult conversations. To teach them the skills to have those conversations because what I've learned over time, when I used to ask the question, and I've asked this to thousands of people at this point: “So what holds you back from speaking, having a conversation, a dialogue about diversity or racism or sexism or any of those isms, what holds you back?” And the answers always are, I don't know the right thing to say, I'm afraid I'm going to be judged. And by the way, we're gonna be judged anyway, because human beings can't not judge other people. So we're gonna be judged. So we might as well let that one go. But I don't know the right thing to say, I'm afraid I'm going to be judged. And I don't want to hurt the other person's feelings. Well, if we had better skills for these difficult conversations, we wouldn't have so much anxiety because we could go into those conversations by really being curious rather than judgmental with the intention of coming out knowing more than we did when we went in. KG: Can you tell me how you have always done this balance so beautifully, where you are an appreciative inquirer into other people's ways of thinking while also holding your own sense of self so firmly? and with such clarity. I think that's a thing of beauty. So is there a book, quote, anything that inspires you, encapsulates your philosophy towards this? LENORA: The first one is speak up even when your voice cracks. That is, don't be silent because you think other people are going to judge you or that type of thing. Now, of course, I mean, speak up with respect and that type of thing. I'm not advocating being cruel in any way, but be willing to speak up because your voice is needed. And speak up even when your voice is cracked, of course, means even when you're afraid. That piggybacks on my favorite quote by Marianne Williamson. Now she's written up, it's a whole long piece, but the part of it that resonates most with me is, and I'll paraphrase it because I know I won't get it exactly right, but she says, playing small serves no one. Let your life light shine, let your light shine. LENORA: As I have gotten older, I realize I have no one else to please but myself. And at the end of the day, I have to be happy with who I am. Speaking up, though my voice might crack, speaking up comes in many different ways. So it's not necessarily always verbalizing. It certainly doesn't mean that the moment something happens that you disagree with, that you jump right in, you have to pick your battles and also the timing to, you know, to manage your, manage your emotions. But for Marianne Williamson's quote, playing small does not serve anyone so often, especially as women. We're socialized to play small. We're socialized to let other people's light shine and not ours too much because it might outshine someone else. Well, guess what? There's plenty of space on this planet for all of us to shine. LENORA: My friend, Jana Stanfield wrote a song that you can find it on YouTube. And the song is, All the Good is the name of the song. And the refrain that just keeps repeating in it is, I can't do all the good that the world needs, but the world needs all the good I can do.REFERENCES & LINKS:LENORA’s LinkedIN/Website page LINKEDINUbuntuGlobalCRITICAL VOICES INITIATIVELENORA’s Suggested Song/QuoteALL THE GOODMARIANNE WILLIAMSONThe Human Conversation Podcast ChannelsAPPLE PODCASTSSPOTIFY

The Human Conversation with Lenora Billings-Harris

<h1>Guest: Alia Saleh</h1>Alia Saleh is a dynamic finance leader whose work extends beyond balance sheets and boardrooms. She draws upon her global experiences in speaking, writing, community building, mentoring, and even theatre to bring a different approach to leadership. Across diverse roles, Alia continually demonstrates that finance is not merely about numbers but about driving impact, fostering ethical behavior, and inspiring positive change.Guided by core principles of integrity and collaboration, she has championed different ways of thinking—both on stage and in the workplace—that emphasize empathy and creativity. Her ability to connect with people from all walks of life has led to impactful mentorships, resonant public speaking engagements, and initiatives that transcend traditional corporate boundaries. At the heart of her journey is a genuine commitment to harnessing the power of financial stewardship to uplift communities and promote inclusive leadership practices.In “The Human Conversation with Kaumudi Goda,” Alia will delve into her views on ethics, integrity, and what it truly means to lead in an ever-evolving world. Join her as she shares stories of navigating complex dilemmas and redefining leadership through a lens of humanity, authenticity, and shared purpose.  <h3>HIGHLIGHTS & TAKEAWAYS:</h3><ul><li>KG: I've always wondered, is there a red thread that ties all of this together for you? What's the driving force behind all that you do?</li><li>ALIA: The short answer is curiosity. I am inherently a very curious and inquisitive person. And whenever I see something new or stumble upon something new, either it is a technical accounting standard or an emerging Al tool, maybe in financial forecasting, I have this burning need to figure out what it is. Why does it matter? Why are people talking about it? And whether I can apply it in my day to day, be it either professional or my personal life. And It's always that sense of wonder, a little bit of trepidation of stepping into uncharted territory that keeps me going. But equally, it also forces me a little bit out of my shell because I am an Introvert, believe it or not, I am an Introvert. I like my numbers, I like my computer screens, I like staying at home, I like conserving my social battery. But my curiosity forces me out of my shell because as an individual, I can't know everything. I'm not an expert in everything, but if I want to learn, I need to step outside and speak to people. I need to speak to experts, in the field of sustainability, for example.</li><li>KG: I celebrated along with so many others when I saw your recent update, you were featured in a very special magazine. Will you tell us a little bit about that latest feather in your cap?.</li><li>ALIA: I'm very happy to say that I was featured in ACCA's AB Direct magazine. I remember when I was just starting out studying. at Deloitte for my chartered accountancy, reading stories about men and women at the time who had made it. I remember looking at their resumes and reading their journeys and being inspired and saying, you know what? I want to be like them one day. And then last year when I got asked by ACCA whether I would be interested in being covered in the AB Direct, I had a pinch me moment. I just couldn't believe it. And sometimes we need to sit back and reflect and acknowledge how far we have come.. We have to recognize our own achievements and recognize our own accomplishments. And it feels just so much sweeter when you have a community that celebrates with you. It motivates you. It empowers you.</li><li>KG: We are sharing stories and highlighting Individuals who are showing the world that you can be successful and display integrity and ethics along the way. And so my question to you is, what do the terms integrity and ethics mean to you?</li><li>ALIA: I often say that I perhaps learned about integrity well before I understood the word and well before I understood the meaning of the concept of ethics. What integrity meant. It is about doing whatever needs to be done, Irrespective of what others may think.. and regardless of how uncomfortable that situation may be.. It Is about taking responsibility no matter what.. And.. ethics is a framework that guides you in terms of what's right and what's wrong in terms of specific scenarios.. Integrity. Is acting like that every time, consistently.</li><li>KG: Have you had a personal experience yourself where you had to navigate a difficult ethical dilemma? What I'm interested in is how did that experience shape your approach going forward? Many times as a leader, you're likely in situations where you do not have an answer. There is no clear cut right or wrong, nor is there a ready example for you to emulate and follow. Therefore you're pretty much inventing the path forward. So I'd love to hear from you. What did you do through that challenge and how did that shape your approach going forward?</li><li>ALIA: But in terms of standout situations where I’ve had those issues tested, for me it was COVID-19. During that time it was one of the toughest dilemmas that I've ever faced in my career and that's when I felt like I grew up. I genuinely felt like I matured as a leader during navigating that period. We were tested. What did we do? We got all the data that we had. We tested multiple scenarios. We exhausted all our options. We spoke to our supply chain. We spoke to our landlords. We applied for relief programs depending on the Jurisdiction that we were in. I mean, we did have to downsize, but I'd also like to think we did it in the right way where we did it transparently. We communicated to our team whenever we could about where we were, what decisions we were making, and when we would possibly be able to get back to them. Some people were scared with that and they didn't want to hear that we didn't know what the future would look like.. </li><li>ALIA: But we continued on that path because we believed that we had to continue to communicate and be as transparent as permissible. Now, not everyone agreed with our decision. Some people thought that we could have held on longer. Some people thought that we took too long to make a decision, but .. That's the burden of leadership. As long as you're acting with integrity, you are using the best information available and you're making decisions collaboratively, not just on a knee jerk reaction, on an emotional impulse that I found, gave me moral clarity.</li><li>KG: Sometimes you make the call and others might agree or disagree, but as a leader, it's on your shoulders. Therefore using exactly as you've said, all the Information at hand, your experience and your. foresight into what it might play out as and willingness to deal with the consequences, know, through well thought through decision, there will be consequences. We know that and you've thought through how you're to handle them. That's all we can do.</li><li>ALIA: And I remember coming across something from the Harvard Business Review that, and the title is what really grabbed my attention, which is why I clicked on it. And it was measuring the return on character... And for me, it hit all the right boxes because one, it's measuring return, because we're talking about finance, but it was a return on character.. And whenever you're thinking about, am I doing the right thing? Is it worth it? Will people see it? Does it matter? Sometimes articles like this put things into perspective.</li><li>KG: I have heard you speak about some things that are on your mind as you think about the future of finance, the future of the world of work. And so as a finance leader, do you have any observations on ethical dilemmas most relevant today? And what would your advice be on such situations for more junior, younger finance professionals who are seeking to be both successful and feel like they're aligned with their values and behave in high integrity.</li><li>ALIA: I'd like to think that traditional ethics or ethical dilemmas.. with certain cultural nuances, depending on which jurisdiction that you're working in, everyone is generally aware of. But in terms of new and upcoming ethical dilemmas, I believe businesses are continuing to struggle with sustainability. Whether it be social value, or environment, I think businesses today are still struggling with what to do about it. There is, I would like to think, a consensus that we need to balance people, profit and planet. .. And it's necessary to maintain a sustainable operating environment. </li><li>ALIA: It's a dilemma and there's no easy answer. And I think everybody is still trying to figure out how to balance it, the how. We agree, it's important. How do we do it? And the only answer that I can find is start small, start somewhere. If you have leadership that acts with that in.... And I'm saying Integrity because that is the root of today's conversation. But if you have leaders that continue to act with that. In some way, shape or form, they have already invested in something that could benefit the environment to reduce their carbon footprint. And they have done that because it saves money.</li><li>ALIA: Start small and start somewhere. I guess that is my approach. And sometimes when it comes to shifting the dial, when it comes to leadership, it is starting to have those conversations. And here I'd like to bring up the carrot or the stick analogy. Either the carrot is, you're going to get more market share. The stick is, you're going to lose more market share because your competition's already doing it. The carrot is, you're going to save a lot of money. The stick is, you're going to pay a fine. So it's about knowing what levers to pull in those conversations with your leadership to try and shift the dial. And even if it's a small shift, it matters.</li><li>KG: You speak up, to what needs to be said. You speak up fearlessly. Where does that come from?</li><li>ALIA: I think that comes from experience. I think it absolutely comes from experience. I have had a lot of missteps where I have perhaps not delivered the message in the right way and I have faced a lot of pushback. It comes down to, I guess it comes back to integrity, right? If It's about doing the right thing irrespective of how uncomfortable the situation is or what, regardless of what other people think, if it's the right thing to do... you will speak up about it. And if you're upset with it not landing correctly, then you need to recalibrate on how you deliver that message. So do I continue to speak up? Absolutely, I do. And I do it when I think it adds value and I do it when I think it has the most impact.</li><li>KG: Is there a quote, a book or a piece of advice that you’d like to share?</li><li>ALIA: I would like to say as a statement that I hope will stick, as ETHICS is knowing the right path to take... INTEGRITY is taking it every time. So that is something that I like. If I need a sticker, that's what that's a sticker that I'm going to have in front of my desk.. But yeah, it's taking the right path every time, even when no one is looking.</li></ul> <h3>REFERENCES & LINKS:</h3> ALIA’s LinkedIN/Website page <a href="https://www.isgltd.com/en/stories/alia-saleh" rel="noopener noreferrer" target="_blank" style="color: rgb(89, 93, 112);">ISG MIDDLE EAST</a><a href="https://www.linkedin.com/in/alia-saleh-fcca-mba-b2b297b/" rel="noopener noreferrer" target="_blank" style="color: rgb(89, 93, 112);">LINKEDIN</a><a href="https://www.linkedin.com/company/acca-middle-east-superconnected-women-s-community/posts/?feedView=all" rel="noopener noreferrer" target="_blank" style="color: rgb(89, 93, 112);">SHE COUNTS</a> ALIA’s Suggested Book<a href="https://hbr.org/2015/04/measuring-the-return-on-character" rel="noopener noreferrer" target="_blank" style="color: rgb(89, 93, 112);">MEASURING THE RETURN ON CHARACTER</a><a href="https://brenebrown.com/hubs/dare-to-lead/" rel="noopener noreferrer" target="_blank" style="color: rgb(89, 93, 112);">DARE TO LEAD by: BRENE BROWN</a> The Human Conversation Podcast Channels<a href="https://podcasts.apple.com/us/podcast/the-human-conversation-podcast-on-leadership-and-ethics/id1736302989" rel="noopener noreferrer" target="_blank" style="color: rgb(89, 93, 112);">APPLE PODCASTS</a><a href="https://open.spotify.com/show/2DLMqNqgKZTKyB8zcw5MF0?si=a5c9d1e15b6e4ac3" rel="noopener noreferrer" target="_blank" style="color: rgb(89, 93, 112);">SPOTIFY</a>

Guest: Alia SalehAlia Saleh is a dynamic finance leader whose work extends beyond balance sheets and boardrooms. She draws upon her global experiences in speaking, writing, community building, mentoring, and even theatre to bring a different approach to leadership. Across diverse roles, Alia continually demonstrates that finance is not merely about numbers but about driving impact, fostering ethical behavior, and inspiring positive change.Guided by core principles of integrity and collaboration, she has championed different ways of thinking—both on stage and in the workplace—that emphasize empathy and creativity. Her ability to connect with people from all walks of life has led to impactful mentorships, resonant public speaking engagements, and initiatives that transcend traditional corporate boundaries. At the heart of her journey is a genuine commitment to harnessing the power of financial stewardship to uplift communities and promote inclusive leadership practices.In “The Human Conversation with Kaumudi Goda,” Alia will delve into her views on ethics, integrity, and what it truly means to lead in an ever-evolving world. Join her as she shares stories of navigating complex dilemmas and redefining leadership through a lens of humanity, authenticity, and shared purpose. HIGHLIGHTS & TAKEAWAYS:KG: I've always wondered, is there a red thread that ties all of this together for you? What's the driving force behind all that you do?ALIA: The short answer is curiosity. I am inherently a very curious and inquisitive person. And whenever I see something new or stumble upon something new, either it is a technical accounting standard or an emerging Al tool, maybe in financial forecasting, I have this burning need to figure out what it is. Why does it matter? Why are people talking about it? And whether I can apply it in my day to day, be it either professional or my personal life. And It's always that sense of wonder, a little bit of trepidation of stepping into uncharted territory that keeps me going. But equally, it also forces me a little bit out of my shell because I am an Introvert, believe it or not, I am an Introvert. I like my numbers, I like my computer screens, I like staying at home, I like conserving my social battery. But my curiosity forces me out of my shell because as an individual, I can't know everything. I'm not an expert in everything, but if I want to learn, I need to step outside and speak to people. I need to speak to experts, in the field of sustainability, for example.KG: I celebrated along with so many others when I saw your recent update, you were featured in a very special magazine. Will you tell us a little bit about that latest feather in your cap?.ALIA: I'm very happy to say that I was featured in ACCA's AB Direct magazine. I remember when I was just starting out studying. at Deloitte for my chartered accountancy, reading stories about men and women at the time who had made it. I remember looking at their resumes and reading their journeys and being inspired and saying, you know what? I want to be like them one day. And then last year when I got asked by ACCA whether I would be interested in being covered in the AB Direct, I had a pinch me moment. I just couldn't believe it. And sometimes we need to sit back and reflect and acknowledge how far we have come.. We have to recognize our own achievements and recognize our own accomplishments. And it feels just so much sweeter when you have a community that celebrates with you. It motivates you. It empowers you.KG: We are sharing stories and highlighting Individuals who are showing the world that you can be successful and display integrity and ethics along the way. And so my question to you is, what do the terms integrity and ethics mean to you?ALIA: I often say that I perhaps learned about integrity well before I understood the word and well before I understood the meaning of the concept of ethics. What integrity meant. It is about doing whatever needs to be done, Irrespective of what others may think.. and regardless of how uncomfortable that situation may be.. It Is about taking responsibility no matter what.. And.. ethics is a framework that guides you in terms of what's right and what's wrong in terms of specific scenarios.. Integrity. Is acting like that every time, consistently.KG: Have you had a personal experience yourself where you had to navigate a difficult ethical dilemma? What I'm interested in is how did that experience shape your approach going forward? Many times as a leader, you're likely in situations where you do not have an answer. There is no clear cut right or wrong, nor is there a ready example for you to emulate and follow. Therefore you're pretty much inventing the path forward. So I'd love to hear from you. What did you do through that challenge and how did that shape your approach going forward?ALIA: But in terms of standout situations where I’ve had those issues tested, for me it was COVID-19. During that time it was one of the toughest dilemmas that I've ever faced in my career and that's when I felt like I grew up. I genuinely felt like I matured as a leader during navigating that period. We were tested. What did we do? We got all the data that we had. We tested multiple scenarios. We exhausted all our options. We spoke to our supply chain. We spoke to our landlords. We applied for relief programs depending on the Jurisdiction that we were in. I mean, we did have to downsize, but I'd also like to think we did it in the right way where we did it transparently. We communicated to our team whenever we could about where we were, what decisions we were making, and when we would possibly be able to get back to them. Some people were scared with that and they didn't want to hear that we didn't know what the future would look like.. ALIA: But we continued on that path because we believed that we had to continue to communicate and be as transparent as permissible. Now, not everyone agreed with our decision. Some people thought that we could have held on longer. Some people thought that we took too long to make a decision, but .. That's the burden of leadership. As long as you're acting with integrity, you are using the best information available and you're making decisions collaboratively, not just on a knee jerk reaction, on an emotional impulse that I found, gave me moral clarity.KG: Sometimes you make the call and others might agree or disagree, but as a leader, it's on your shoulders. Therefore using exactly as you've said, all the Information at hand, your experience and your. foresight into what it might play out as and willingness to deal with the consequences, know, through well thought through decision, there will be consequences. We know that and you've thought through how you're to handle them. That's all we can do.ALIA: And I remember coming across something from the Harvard Business Review that, and the title is what really grabbed my attention, which is why I clicked on it. And it was measuring the return on character... And for me, it hit all the right boxes because one, it's measuring return, because we're talking about finance, but it was a return on character.. And whenever you're thinking about, am I doing the right thing? Is it worth it? Will people see it? Does it matter? Sometimes articles like this put things into perspective.KG: I have heard you speak about some things that are on your mind as you think about the future of finance, the future of the world of work. And so as a finance leader, do you have any observations on ethical dilemmas most relevant today? And what would your advice be on such situations for more junior, younger finance professionals who are seeking to be both successful and feel like they're aligned with their values and behave in high integrity.ALIA: I'd like to think that traditional ethics or ethical dilemmas.. with certain cultural nuances, depending on which jurisdiction that you're working in, everyone is generally aware of. But in terms of new and upcoming ethical dilemmas, I believe businesses are continuing to struggle with sustainability. Whether it be social value, or environment, I think businesses today are still struggling with what to do about it. There is, I would like to think, a consensus that we need to balance people, profit and planet. .. And it's necessary to maintain a sustainable operating environment. ALIA: It's a dilemma and there's no easy answer. And I think everybody is still trying to figure out how to balance it, the how. We agree, it's important. How do we do it? And the only answer that I can find is start small, start somewhere. If you have leadership that acts with that in.... And I'm saying Integrity because that is the root of today's conversation. But if you have leaders that continue to act with that. In some way, shape or form, they have already invested in something that could benefit the environment to reduce their carbon footprint. And they have done that because it saves money.ALIA: Start small and start somewhere. I guess that is my approach. And sometimes when it comes to shifting the dial, when it comes to leadership, it is starting to have those conversations. And here I'd like to bring up the carrot or the stick analogy. Either the carrot is, you're going to get more market share. The stick is, you're going to lose more market share because your competition's already doing it. The carrot is, you're going to save a lot of money. The stick is, you're going to pay a fine. So it's about knowing what levers to pull in those conversations with your leadership to try and shift the dial. And even if it's a small shift, it matters.KG: You speak up, to what needs to be said. You speak up fearlessly. Where does that come from?ALIA: I think that comes from experience. I think it absolutely comes from experience. I have had a lot of missteps where I have perhaps not delivered the message in the right way and I have faced a lot of pushback. It comes down to, I guess it comes back to integrity, right? If It's about doing the right thing irrespective of how uncomfortable the situation is or what, regardless of what other people think, if it's the right thing to do... you will speak up about it. And if you're upset with it not landing correctly, then you need to recalibrate on how you deliver that message. So do I continue to speak up? Absolutely, I do. And I do it when I think it adds value and I do it when I think it has the most impact.KG: Is there a quote, a book or a piece of advice that you’d like to share?ALIA: I would like to say as a statement that I hope will stick, as ETHICS is knowing the right path to take... INTEGRITY is taking it every time. So that is something that I like. If I need a sticker, that's what that's a sticker that I'm going to have in front of my desk.. But yeah, it's taking the right path every time, even when no one is looking.REFERENCES & LINKS:ALIA’s LinkedIN/Website page ISG MIDDLE EASTLINKEDINSHE COUNTSALIA’s Suggested BookMEASURING THE RETURN ON CHARACTERDARE TO LEAD by: BRENE BROWNThe Human Conversation Podcast ChannelsAPPLE PODCASTSSPOTIFY

The Human Conversation with Alia Saleh

<h2>Guest: Rose Cartolari</h2>Specialist in Strategic & Inclusive Leadership, Executive Board Director and Successful Entrepreneur Rose is a leadership advisor, executive coach and entrepreneur with over 30 years of success in the corporate world. In addition to working for organizations such as American Express and UNICEF, she co-founded and served for many years as COO of Scharper, a European pharmaceuticals company, which she successfully sold in 2011.  <h3>HIGHLIGHTS & TAKEAWAYS:</h3> <ul><li>KG: Therefore my first question is that in your stellar, impactful career so far, you do so many different kinds of things all around the world: you speak, you write, you mentor are just a few things. What’s the red thread that ties all of it together for you? What’s the driving force behind all that you do?</li><li>ROSE: So I think this thread that has been throughout my career is how I can maximize different strengths, different perspectives not only because I find that fascinating and that makes my thinking broader, but it’s also good for the way we run businesses. And it’s also good for helping us find solutions to problems that we don’t even know exist yet. So I would say that’s kind of where it comes from.</li><li>KG: One of the topics that fascinates me is thinking about ethics and integrity. I imagine that all of us wake up in the morning wanting to do the right thing, wanting to be our best selves, and then through the day having to prioritize. As a person who was running a pharmaceutical company and all the activities since that time, what is your take on the terms ethics and integrity?</li><li>ROSE: If you talk about ethics by itself without any context, I think of principles or standards of right and wrong that you have that guide your behavior. And there are some that are shared by everybody and there are some that are individuals. I think today it’s not really also black and white. I think many of us face small and big sort of ethical questions, but they look different because we’ve evolved differently.</li><li>ROSE: And because we are making decisions big and small, everyday that are aligned around what is the right thing to do, what is the correct thing for me to do. And we talk about integrity when we talk about ethics. Integrity is also very tied around the qualities of being trustworthy, of being consistent and adhering to your ethical values or your ethical principles, being honest. What is going on in the world is nuanced. Their ethical decisions are not necessarily, am I going to break some rule and falsify data? We all know that’s wrong and everybody would agree. And in fact, it’s illegal. But I think the things that we deal with are much more nuanced today. Am I treating everybody the same? How do I make a decision? Who gets to share a voice? Am I doing this for the right reasons? Am I making decisions the way my shareholders really want me to do it or am I doing it because of my own personal interests? And the truth of the matter is I think people are really hungry for leaders, leaders who are going to make ethical and moral decisions. This was not something that was always asked of leaders. And now it’s a requirement of leadership. It’s one of the fastest-evolving requirements of leadership.</li><li>KG: Can you share a personal experience where perhaps you had to take a call on something like an ethical dilemma that was difficult and maybe in the way you shared it, it’ll help people have a template of how they too can navigate such experiences? And I’m particularly interested in hearing how that experience really shaped you, and how you now look at such tricky dilemmas.</li><li>ROSE: The word ethical is for me, it’s a very heavy word. And so, I really don’t think I’ve had these huge ethical dilemmas to make. There are rules when I was in the pharmaceutical business or before that in financial services. There are rules and there are compliance issues and I stuck to them. So from that sense, I don’t see myself as having big ethical dilemmas because I follow the rules, I believe in the rules.</li><li>ROSE: Other people might not have that luxury or that set of values that they need to align to. So this for me was the big dilemma because who doesn’t want to have that income stream, right? But quite honestly, what I see is this seeping or leaking of our sense of ethics, our sense of integrity, our sense of right and wrong.</li><li>ROSE: I think, I believe particularly women need to talk about themselves. They need to be polished. They need to stand out. But I also wonder if over-polishing is the right thing to do, right?How can you be authentic in a way that really aligns with who you are? Because in the end, everything we know about leadership says it comes through vulnerability, it comes through connection, shared experiences, adding value, and sort of real stories of growth. And that’s where trust comes from. Because why do we do all of this ethics and integrity and stuff. It’s because as leaders, we need people to trust us. We need to be credible.</li><li>KG: It’s that daily erosion, that sense of trading off on what you need to project to fit in with your peers and what seems to be on trend with feeling fully aligned and honest about who you are and how you show up in the world. And I believe at a more personal level, it’s not only because it’s important for other people to trust us, but also at the end of the day, I always think of it as being at peace with who you are. Some of the things we all feel the pressure to do on social media absolutely feel like it’s perhaps almost a denigration of authenticity and being truthful and real, which is so important.</li><li>ROSE: You know, we tell people you do need to stand out. You do need to be visible, know, unabashedly visible, be out there. But I don’t think we’re as good at teaching people who are not as good at doing the work to understand what that means.</li><li>KG: What’s your personal formula for staying true to yourself?</li><li>ROSE: Well, so I have what I call a personal brand, but it’s actually really just values, the top three or four values around how I want people to speak about me when I’m gone or in three years when people look back and they say, Rose is…So everything that I do, I always have that criteria. These criteria, by the way, always change. Like every few months I add one, take away one, but they are now part of my thinking style. And this is where I was saying before, in terms of decision-making, I think this is where ethics and integrity really come in. Are organizations willing or even have the appetite to make decisions, and build their processes around their values, around their goals? And then how do you know? How are you checking? How are you holding yourself accountable?</li><li>KG: You have both been the absolute leader of organizations and you also collaborated with peers in large organizations. And I think organizations are made of people and therefore, even if you’re one amongst other leaders, by being who you are, by bringing clarity, to how you show up, you can absolutely impact the culture of the organization, even though you are one amongst other leaders too. Would you agree with this? Have you seen that you’re able to actually meaningfully impact the organization's culture?</li><li>ROSE: Absolutely, this is what we’re trying to work with leaders on. This is really about values. We all have values. And we all want to, I’ve never met a leader who wants to be a bad leader, who wants to not be loved and taken care of. Then you also make different difficult decisions. I’m not saying that everything that you do should be around values or it should be around values, but that means that you’ll forget all of the data and decisions because you actually have deliverables and you have people’s livelihood in your hands.</li><li>ROSE: I want to be doing it in a way that’s inclusive. So absolutely I see that. But more importantly, I see much more joy. I see people enjoying their work much more. I see teens enjoying being together and working together. And that is a really important part of innovation. Everybody’s talking about diversity, equity, and inclusion, but the diversity part only matters if the people are listened to and included because by having ideas where people are chatting and disagreeing and laughing, ideas ping against each other. And then that’s where the next idea comes from. Some will fall by the wayside, but some will come through. And that is actually a very critical job for leaders today to make sure that all these different elements are coming through.</li><li>ROSE: What does that have to do with integrity? What does that have to do with ethics? It’s about the questions of integrity and ethics today are much more about inclusion, and fairness. Does everybody have access to information? Equitable access to information. Is there enough transparency? Is a process unbiased? This is why we talk about all of those things because people want their leaders to ensure that for them. The world’s just hungry for leaders who bring character.</li><li>KG: Do you have any observations on ethical dilemmas that you see as most prevalent today amongst leaders and what they bring up to you? And do you have any advice on these classic ethical dilemmas of the era?</li><li>ROSE: First is AI, how do you balance using that with privacy? Another one is treatment and employees. Is everybody getting equal opportunities or is there favoritism? So I think these ideas that are coming through are still evolving. And it always comes back to the leader being very clear about internal values, being very clear about organizational values and reminding people when you’re making a decision, here are a set of values. Here’s the idea, to decide whether or not we’re gonna go through with the idea, how do they stack up against these criteria? And the criteria need to involve your values. Usually, the criteria are much more profitability based, short-term profitability based. So by consistently adding personal and organizational values, which hopefully should be aligned. I think it makes a difference.</li><li>KG: Is there a quote or book that has particularly inspired you recently?</li><li>ROSE: My favorite quote in the whole world is one from Rumi.</li><li>“Yesterday I was clever, so I wanted to change the world. Today, I am wise, so I’m changing myself.” I really believe leaders have to accept and really accept at a visceral level that I have to change before anything else can change. I have this model of evolved leadership, which is very influenced by Daniel Goleman’s work in mindfulness and emotional intelligence and Ellen Langer’s work. And so I have my own guiding sort of principle around that, which is that true leadership actually begins with inner clarity, which then manifests itself in purposeful action. So it’s sort of a more practical take on my favorite quote.</li><li>KG: You’re a brilliant speaker, You’re also such a beautiful writer. What’s your preference? Do you enjoy writing more or speaking more?</li><li>ROSE: I enjoy speaking more. I find speaking a way of thinking. So things come out of my mouth sometimes which I say, yeah, that’s right. That is what I think. I really love the keynote speaking or the workshop, the small leadership workshops, because it really allows me to delve further into very specific issues in a way that is enjoyable to me. And I get a tremendous amount of energy interacting with people.</li></ul> <h3>REFERENCES & LINKS:</h3> ROSE’s LinkedIn/Website page <a href="https://www.linkedin.com/in/rosecartolari/" rel="noopener noreferrer" target="_blank" style="color: rgb(1, 65, 170);">LINKEDIN</a><a href="https://rosecartolari.com/" rel="noopener noreferrer" target="_blank" style="color: rgb(1, 65, 170);">WEBSITE</a> ROSE’s Suggested Book<a href="https://www.goodreads.com/book/show/224786.Mindfulness" rel="noopener noreferrer" target="_blank" style="color: rgb(1, 65, 170);">EMOTIONAL INTELLIGENCE by DANIEL GOLEMAN MINDFULNESS by ELLEN LANGER</a> The Human Conversation Podcast Channels<a href="https://podcasts.apple.com/us/podcast/the-human-conversation-podcast-on-leadership-and-ethics/id1736302989" rel="noopener noreferrer" target="_blank" style="color: rgb(1, 65, 170);">APPLE PODCASTS</a><a href="https://open.spotify.com/show/2DLMqNqgKZTKyB8zcw5MF0?si=a5c9d1e15b6e4ac3" rel="noopener noreferrer" target="_blank" style="color: rgb(1, 65, 170);">SPOTIFY</a>

Guest: Rose CartolariSpecialist in Strategic & Inclusive Leadership, Executive Board Director and Successful EntrepreneurRose is a leadership advisor, executive coach and entrepreneur with over 30 years of success in the corporate world. In addition to working for organizations such as American Express and UNICEF, she co-founded and served for many years as COO of Scharper, a European pharmaceuticals company, which she successfully sold in 2011. HIGHLIGHTS & TAKEAWAYS:KG: Therefore my first question is that in your stellar, impactful career so far, you do so many different kinds of things all around the world: you speak, you write, you mentor are just a few things. What’s the red thread that ties all of it together for you? What’s the driving force behind all that you do?ROSE: So I think this thread that has been throughout my career is how I can maximize different strengths, different perspectives not only because I find that fascinating and that makes my thinking broader, but it’s also good for the way we run businesses. And it’s also good for helping us find solutions to problems that we don’t even know exist yet. So I would say that’s kind of where it comes from.KG: One of the topics that fascinates me is thinking about ethics and integrity. I imagine that all of us wake up in the morning wanting to do the right thing, wanting to be our best selves, and then through the day having to prioritize. As a person who was running a pharmaceutical company and all the activities since that time, what is your take on the terms ethics and integrity?ROSE: If you talk about ethics by itself without any context, I think of principles or standards of right and wrong that you have that guide your behavior. And there are some that are shared by everybody and there are some that are individuals. I think today it’s not really also black and white. I think many of us face small and big sort of ethical questions, but they look different because we’ve evolved differently.ROSE: And because we are making decisions big and small, everyday that are aligned around what is the right thing to do, what is the correct thing for me to do. And we talk about integrity when we talk about ethics. Integrity is also very tied around the qualities of being trustworthy, of being consistent and adhering to your ethical values or your ethical principles, being honest. What is going on in the world is nuanced. Their ethical decisions are not necessarily, am I going to break some rule and falsify data? We all know that’s wrong and everybody would agree. And in fact, it’s illegal. But I think the things that we deal with are much more nuanced today. Am I treating everybody the same? How do I make a decision? Who gets to share a voice? Am I doing this for the right reasons? Am I making decisions the way my shareholders really want me to do it or am I doing it because of my own personal interests? And the truth of the matter is I think people are really hungry for leaders, leaders who are going to make ethical and moral decisions. This was not something that was always asked of leaders. And now it’s a requirement of leadership. It’s one of the fastest-evolving requirements of leadership.KG: Can you share a personal experience where perhaps you had to take a call on something like an ethical dilemma that was difficult and maybe in the way you shared it, it’ll help people have a template of how they too can navigate such experiences? And I’m particularly interested in hearing how that experience really shaped you, and how you now look at such tricky dilemmas.ROSE: The word ethical is for me, it’s a very heavy word. And so, I really don’t think I’ve had these huge ethical dilemmas to make. There are rules when I was in the pharmaceutical business or before that in financial services. There are rules and there are compliance issues and I stuck to them. So from that sense, I don’t see myself as having big ethical dilemmas because I follow the rules, I believe in the rules.ROSE: Other people might not have that luxury or that set of values that they need to align to. So this for me was the big dilemma because who doesn’t want to have that income stream, right? But quite honestly, what I see is this seeping or leaking of our sense of ethics, our sense of integrity, our sense of right and wrong.ROSE: I think, I believe particularly women need to talk about themselves. They need to be polished. They need to stand out. But I also wonder if over-polishing is the right thing to do, right?How can you be authentic in a way that really aligns with who you are? Because in the end, everything we know about leadership says it comes through vulnerability, it comes through connection, shared experiences, adding value, and sort of real stories of growth. And that’s where trust comes from. Because why do we do all of this ethics and integrity and stuff. It’s because as leaders, we need people to trust us. We need to be credible.KG: It’s that daily erosion, that sense of trading off on what you need to project to fit in with your peers and what seems to be on trend with feeling fully aligned and honest about who you are and how you show up in the world. And I believe at a more personal level, it’s not only because it’s important for other people to trust us, but also at the end of the day, I always think of it as being at peace with who you are. Some of the things we all feel the pressure to do on social media absolutely feel like it’s perhaps almost a denigration of authenticity and being truthful and real, which is so important.ROSE: You know, we tell people you do need to stand out. You do need to be visible, know, unabashedly visible, be out there. But I don’t think we’re as good at teaching people who are not as good at doing the work to understand what that means.KG: What’s your personal formula for staying true to yourself?ROSE: Well, so I have what I call a personal brand, but it’s actually really just values, the top three or four values around how I want people to speak about me when I’m gone or in three years when people look back and they say, Rose is…So everything that I do, I always have that criteria. These criteria, by the way, always change. Like every few months I add one, take away one, but they are now part of my thinking style. And this is where I was saying before, in terms of decision-making, I think this is where ethics and integrity really come in. Are organizations willing or even have the appetite to make decisions, and build their processes around their values, around their goals? And then how do you know? How are you checking? How are you holding yourself accountable?KG: You have both been the absolute leader of organizations and you also collaborated with peers in large organizations. And I think organizations are made of people and therefore, even if you’re one amongst other leaders, by being who you are, by bringing clarity, to how you show up, you can absolutely impact the culture of the organization, even though you are one amongst other leaders too. Would you agree with this? Have you seen that you’re able to actually meaningfully impact the organization's culture?ROSE: Absolutely, this is what we’re trying to work with leaders on. This is really about values. We all have values. And we all want to, I’ve never met a leader who wants to be a bad leader, who wants to not be loved and taken care of. Then you also make different difficult decisions. I’m not saying that everything that you do should be around values or it should be around values, but that means that you’ll forget all of the data and decisions because you actually have deliverables and you have people’s livelihood in your hands.ROSE: I want to be doing it in a way that’s inclusive. So absolutely I see that. But more importantly, I see much more joy. I see people enjoying their work much more. I see teens enjoying being together and working together. And that is a really important part of innovation. Everybody’s talking about diversity, equity, and inclusion, but the diversity part only matters if the people are listened to and included because by having ideas where people are chatting and disagreeing and laughing, ideas ping against each other. And then that’s where the next idea comes from. Some will fall by the wayside, but some will come through. And that is actually a very critical job for leaders today to make sure that all these different elements are coming through.ROSE: What does that have to do with integrity? What does that have to do with ethics? It’s about the questions of integrity and ethics today are much more about inclusion, and fairness. Does everybody have access to information? Equitable access to information. Is there enough transparency? Is a process unbiased? This is why we talk about all of those things because people want their leaders to ensure that for them. The world’s just hungry for leaders who bring character.KG: Do you have any observations on ethical dilemmas that you see as most prevalent today amongst leaders and what they bring up to you? And do you have any advice on these classic ethical dilemmas of the era?ROSE: First is AI, how do you balance using that with privacy? Another one is treatment and employees. Is everybody getting equal opportunities or is there favoritism? So I think these ideas that are coming through are still evolving. And it always comes back to the leader being very clear about internal values, being very clear about organizational values and reminding people when you’re making a decision, here are a set of values. Here’s the idea, to decide whether or not we’re gonna go through with the idea, how do they stack up against these criteria? And the criteria need to involve your values. Usually, the criteria are much more profitability based, short-term profitability based. So by consistently adding personal and organizational values, which hopefully should be aligned. I think it makes a difference.KG: Is there a quote or book that has particularly inspired you recently?ROSE: My favorite quote in the whole world is one from Rumi.“Yesterday I was clever, so I wanted to change the world. Today, I am wise, so I’m changing myself.” I really believe leaders have to accept and really accept at a visceral level that I have to change before anything else can change. I have this model of evolved leadership, which is very influenced by Daniel Goleman’s work in mindfulness and emotional intelligence and Ellen Langer’s work. And so I have my own guiding sort of principle around that, which is that true leadership actually begins with inner clarity, which then manifests itself in purposeful action. So it’s sort of a more practical take on my favorite quote.KG: You’re a brilliant speaker, You’re also such a beautiful writer. What’s your preference? Do you enjoy writing more or speaking more?ROSE: I enjoy speaking more. I find speaking a way of thinking. So things come out of my mouth sometimes which I say, yeah, that’s right. That is what I think. I really love the keynote speaking or the workshop, the small leadership workshops, because it really allows me to delve further into very specific issues in a way that is enjoyable to me. And I get a tremendous amount of energy interacting with people.REFERENCES & LINKS:ROSE’s LinkedIn/Website page LINKEDINWEBSITEROSE’s Suggested BookEMOTIONAL INTELLIGENCE by DANIEL GOLEMAN MINDFULNESS by ELLEN LANGERThe Human Conversation Podcast ChannelsAPPLE PODCASTSSPOTIFY

The Human Conversation with Rose Cartolari

<h2>Guest: Stella Saliari</h2> STELLA SALIARI is a feminist researcher and social justice consultant who works with institutions that strive towards achieving intersectional justice. Throughout her work she applied feminist research practice and an anti-racist lens. She collaborates with both organizations in the Higher Education realm as well as the not-for-profit sector, presenting on topics such as Eurocentrism and knowledge production, diversity, equity, inclusion and belonging in international education, and the politics of positionality. She curates and moderate events ranging from topics such as Inclusion and Diversity in the Erasmus+ program to training on feminist knowledge production. <h3>HIGHLIGHTS & TAKEAWAYS:</h3> <ul><li>STELLA: The red thread behind all of this or the driving force are actually three things that are interconnected to each other. It’s feminism, it’s academia and it’s my own life story, let’s say my own experiences.</li></ul> <ul><li>STELLA: By moving through the world, this concept of how I’m being perceived changes. But these kinds of boxes that represent power relationships follow me everywhere that I go. And that was something that I became aware of from a very very young age. And in between all of this pain and trouble and the racism, the sexism, and this feeling of not belonging, academia showed up. So that’s my second driving force. And it’s still showing. And academia, for me, has been a true source of inspiration and change. It has liberated me and it has become my constant companion. And the last one is feminism. Feminism gave me a home. And suddenly, I felt I belonged, and when I say home, I don’t mean this cozy space. I really mean that very deep political space that allows me to enter into solidarity with others, that is characterized by coming together where we want to kind of break established injustices.</li></ul> <ul><li>You travel the world, you work across different sectors and domains and you are yourself a highly skilled, educated expert, when you think about the ethical dilemmas and the likely tricky challenges you’re navigating through your professional and personal lives, can you share with us what those terms mean to you in terms of ethics and integrity.</li></ul> <ul><li>STELLA: Every time I feel that something unethical is happening or I’m not true to my principles, I get really restless. I cannot sleep. I have this feeling in my stomach. I feel paralyzed and I’m not well. So ethics and integrity is something that is crucial to me. They are part of who I am. And of course, that doesn’t mean that I’m perfect or I never make mistakes. Of course, it’s part of learning. We are all in a process. But I’m also not scared of saying sorry, of saying I made a mistake, of recognizing a shortcoming. I’m not afraid of conflict, of difficult conversations, because I think if, and that’s also inextricably linked to ethics and integrity, to be open to say, okay, that was wrong what I did, or okay, let’s have this conversation. Let’s learn from each other. Let’s unlearn. Let’s learn something new. So that goes hand in hand with it. And I’m very, very open to it because I don’t think we can be, we can practice integrity and ethics if we don’t see these things being part of each other.</li></ul> <ul><li>KG: Indeed it’s a visceral reaction. You feel it in your body when you know your values clearly and you’re in tune with your body. When you are in situations where your values feel in jeopardy, you can actually feel it physically as well. And perhaps one of the tricky things about everyday life, is that it’s so fast-paced, and we have been almost encouraged to distance ourselves from the work we do and who we are outside of work that many people are either out of tune or they’ve grown into a habit of neglecting themselves, neglecting who they are in that equation.</li></ul> <ul><li>STELLA: (About Navigating Ethical Dilemmas) So what happened, there was a gathering in my kid’s school about an educational trip to go abroad, a trip that involves money that not everybody might have. And because of this, certain children will be excluded from this trip. A trip that probably will be amazing for the kids and maybe a trip that will probably remember forever. But not everybody will be able to participate because of finances. Then again, and here is also that we need to acknowledge that we need to always look at things from an intersectional perspective and that then the people who might be able to participate because of finances might also belong to certain ethnicities because racism is real. And because of this, I decided that my kids will not attend this educational trip because it would go against my ethics. So my decision, together with my partner, was right from the beginning. If certain kids will not be able to be part of the trip, our kids will not be part of the trip. And if the school is not willing to do something about it, to include these kids, I will not participate in that trip. And I also want to make a statement with this and also teach my kids that. For us, it’s important to stand in solidarity with others and to make a statement towards the establishment of the school and not to be part of this trip. And it was very easy for me to take this decision. And I was happy because I immediately responded and I didn’t freeze, you know because I have this feeling inside of me, was boiling. Of course, I wanted to say so much more in that moment, which I didn’t do.</li></ul> <ul><li>STELLA: Everything we do starts in our home. Like, I consider myself a feminist activist, right? But that doesn’t mean that you’re an activist by going into the street and protesting. Yeah, it’s something that you can do, but maybe not everybody likes it, or maybe you don’t have the opportunity to do it wherever you’re based because of security, because of, I’m in a very small village on an island. People don’t really protest here. There’s a lot of other stuff that you can do. It’s about what kind of conversations are you having with your children? How are you raising your children? What kind of books are you reading? How do you speak with your neighbor? Like, what kind of topics are you bringing up? There’s so much that we can do towards making a change. You use the words ethics, becoming ethical, and it concerns us all. And we all have a responsibility here and we all can do something even if we think, that’s so small. No, it’s not small. Imagine all of us would do something, you know, how things would change.</li></ul> <ul><li>KG: Do you have any observations on ethical dilemmas most relevant today to this field? And what is your advice to practitioners and interested observers.</li></ul> <ul><li>STELLA: I decided and very consciously to center care in everything that I do. And I will never stop centering care. Again, I want people who listen to understand that it doesn’t mean that I don’t make mistakes. It doesn’t mean that I don’t have moments where I freeze. It doesn’t mean that there are no moments. May be I say only half of the things that I actually wanted to say because in that moment maybe I got too emotional or my body was too strong or something, you know, so but it’s like I will never stop centering care in everything I do, whether it’s my work, whether it’s my family, whether it’s my friends. And when I say care, I’m talking about compassion. I’m talking about empathy, attentiveness, being in solidarity with others and acknowledging that we are all interconnected. yeah, care is an ethical principle that really guides my actions.</li></ul> <ul><li>STELLA: And then they played this game musical chairs. And I guess the listeners know it, but you have always one chair less and you have to dance around the chairs and then the music stops and when the music stops, you need to find a chair and whoever doesn’t find a chair is out. It’s like losing the game. and it’s always one chair less. And that to me always was a game that really stressed me out. I hated it so much. And then when the kindergarten said, okay, now we’re to play musical chairs, I was like, why? But then he said, our musical chairs are different because we are being inclusive. And the goal in this game was that everybody needed to find a space to sit. So they would take away chairs but the kids needed to find a way to make every body fit. And he was saying, we win when everyone has a place to sit, when we embrace each other and when we invite everyone into our nest. So the kids were holding each other, kids were sitting on top of each other, hugging each other. And that was so, so beautiful. And that was like an example of how we need to look for the beauty in our daily life in order to be able to center care, to have compassion and keep doing the ethical work, you know.</li></ul> <ul><li>STELLA: So the second one is actually a quote by Paulo Freire and he says in that quote that “Education as the practice of freedom as opposed to education as the practice of domination denies that we are abstract, isolated, independent and unattached to the world. It also denies that the world exists as a reality apart from us.” And this is a quote that shows us that we are all connected to each other. It doesn’t matter where we live, what our sexuality is, our gender, the borders, the location, race, religion, because we do not exist as these hermetically scaled borders, you know. And because of this, we have a responsibility for each other. So what happens to you or what happens in one place is not a reality apart from me. And I think once we recognize this, we will live differently. And I also always say if we all were in love with justice, you know when you’re in love? You don’t care if you don’t sleep. you will, I don’t know, go the extra mile.</li><li>You get really excited. you want to see the person you’re in love with. So imagine we were all in love with justice, we were all in love with nature, we are all with these things. Our world would be so much different because we would be so intrinsically motivated. Our purpose would be so much higher to do something.</li></ul> <ul><li>KG: How do you combine this wisdom that there is my truth and there’s your truth?</li></ul> <ul><li>KG: And in, for example, the lady who’s probably suggested that game musical chairs might be super excited about the way she’s organizing things. In that moment to step up with honesty and also combine it with care is tricky. Can you share a little bit about how you manage these things? Because that’s very powerful to do all three things at the same time.</li></ul> <ul><li>STELLA: Like I said before, we make mistakes. All of us make mistakes, it’s a process. We have to learn to listen to each other, to truly listen to each other and to also engage with people who are maybe very far away from our beliefs because it’s easy for me just to talk to my comrades, just to talk to my partner, to talk to people that maybe agree with me. That’s easy. We also need to have these conversations that are not easy with people who disagree with us.</li></ul> <ul><li>STELLA: Through our conversation today and also really powerful concepts of being patient, that things take time and being patient with ourselves, with others, there’s always tomorrow, not every battle needs to be fought today and to trust the process and as long as you have baseline values and clarity. It plays out.</li></ul> <ul><li>STELLA: We also and I think that’s another thing also in the world we live in. We want things fast, they have to be linear. Okay, I’m going now into this training and I have to train 30 people and they all have to learn this and this and this. No, it doesn't work like that. Everyone will take something else from and everybody is part of this process and processes sometimes are messy, you know, and nonlinear. And maybe someone will realize in six months something that they heard at that moment and they will feel like, okay, let me check that out. Let me buy that book. Let me go back to that, you know?</li></ul> <ul><li>STELLA: There’s a book, it’s called HOLDING SPACE. It is by AMINATA CAIRO. And it’s a storytelling approach to trampling diversity and inclusion. And it is also about some of the things that we discussed today. It’s about holding space. It’s about doing the love work, as she calls it. It’s about dismantling the relationship between the dominant and the other. And Aminata in her book, she’s very kind-hearted, but also unapologetically honest. And she shares so much wisdom in the book in a very beautiful and in a very accessible way. Because sometimes we might share things, but the language that we use, we exclude others with it because it might be too academic or too niche. But she does it in such a beautiful, honest and accessible way.</li></ul> <h3>REFERENCES & LINKS:</h3> STELLA’s LinkedIN page <a href="https://www.linkedin.com/in/stella-saliari-b5104535/" rel="noopener noreferrer" target="_blank" style="background-color: transparent; color: rgb(1, 65, 170);">LINKEDIN</a><a href="https://salt-thepodcast.com/salt-podcast/" rel="noopener noreferrer" target="_blank" style="background-color: transparent; color: rgb(1, 65, 170);">SALT THE PODCAST</a> STELLA’s Suggested Book<a href="https://aminatacairo.com/holding-space/" rel="noopener noreferrer" target="_blank" style="background-color: transparent; color: rgb(1, 65, 170);">HOLDING SPACE by AMINATA CAIRO</a> The Human Conversation Podcast Channels<a href="https://podcasts.apple.com/us/podcast/the-human-conversation-podcast-on-leadership-and-ethics/id1736302989" rel="noopener noreferrer" target="_blank" style="background-color: transparent; color: rgb(1, 65, 170);">APPLE PODCASTS</a><a href="https://open.spotify.com/show/2DLMqNqgKZTKyB8zcw5MF0?si=a5c9d1e15b6e4ac3" rel="noopener noreferrer" target="_blank" style="background-color: transparent; color: rgb(1, 65, 170);">SPOTIFY</a>

Guest: Stella SaliariSTELLA SALIARI is a feminist researcher and social justice consultant who works with institutions that strive towards achieving intersectional justice. Throughout her work she applied feminist research practice and an anti-racist lens. She collaborates with both organizations in the Higher Education realm as well as the not-for-profit sector, presenting on topics such as Eurocentrism and knowledge production, diversity, equity, inclusion and belonging in international education, and the politics of positionality. She curates and moderate events ranging from topics such as Inclusion and Diversity in the Erasmus+ program to training on feminist knowledge production. HIGHLIGHTS & TAKEAWAYS:STELLA: The red thread behind all of this or the driving force are actually three things that are interconnected to each other. It’s feminism, it’s academia and it’s my own life story, let’s say my own experiences. STELLA: By moving through the world, this concept of how I’m being perceived changes. But these kinds of boxes that represent power relationships follow me everywhere that I go. And that was something that I became aware of from a very very young age. And in between all of this pain and trouble and the racism, the sexism, and this feeling of not belonging, academia showed up. So that’s my second driving force. And it’s still showing. And academia, for me, has been a true source of inspiration and change. It has liberated me and it has become my constant companion. And the last one is feminism. Feminism gave me a home. And suddenly, I felt I belonged, and when I say home, I don’t mean this cozy space. I really mean that very deep political space that allows me to enter into solidarity with others, that is characterized by coming together where we want to kind of break established injustices. You travel the world, you work across different sectors and domains and you are yourself a highly skilled, educated expert, when you think about the ethical dilemmas and the likely tricky challenges you’re navigating through your professional and personal lives, can you share with us what those terms mean to you in terms of ethics and integrity. STELLA: Every time I feel that something unethical is happening or I’m not true to my principles, I get really restless. I cannot sleep. I have this feeling in my stomach. I feel paralyzed and I’m not well. So ethics and integrity is something that is crucial to me. They are part of who I am. And of course, that doesn’t mean that I’m perfect or I never make mistakes. Of course, it’s part of learning. We are all in a process. But I’m also not scared of saying sorry, of saying I made a mistake, of recognizing a shortcoming. I’m not afraid of conflict, of difficult conversations, because I think if, and that’s also inextricably linked to ethics and integrity, to be open to say, okay, that was wrong what I did, or okay, let’s have this conversation. Let’s learn from each other. Let’s unlearn. Let’s learn something new. So that goes hand in hand with it. And I’m very, very open to it because I don’t think we can be, we can practice integrity and ethics if we don’t see these things being part of each other. KG: Indeed it’s a visceral reaction. You feel it in your body when you know your values clearly and you’re in tune with your body. When you are in situations where your values feel in jeopardy, you can actually feel it physically as well. And perhaps one of the tricky things about everyday life, is that it’s so fast-paced, and we have been almost encouraged to distance ourselves from the work we do and who we are outside of work that many people are either out of tune or they’ve grown into a habit of neglecting themselves, neglecting who they are in that equation. STELLA: (About Navigating Ethical Dilemmas) So what happened, there was a gathering in my kid’s school about an educational trip to go abroad, a trip that involves money that not everybody might have. And because of this, certain children will be excluded from this trip. A trip that probably will be amazing for the kids and maybe a trip that will probably remember forever. But not everybody will be able to participate because of finances. Then again, and here is also that we need to acknowledge that we need to always look at things from an intersectional perspective and that then the people who might be able to participate because of finances might also belong to certain ethnicities because racism is real. And because of this, I decided that my kids will not attend this educational trip because it would go against my ethics. So my decision, together with my partner, was right from the beginning. If certain kids will not be able to be part of the trip, our kids will not be part of the trip. And if the school is not willing to do something about it, to include these kids, I will not participate in that trip. And I also want to make a statement with this and also teach my kids that. For us, it’s important to stand in solidarity with others and to make a statement towards the establishment of the school and not to be part of this trip. And it was very easy for me to take this decision. And I was happy because I immediately responded and I didn’t freeze, you know because I have this feeling inside of me, was boiling. Of course, I wanted to say so much more in that moment, which I didn’t do. STELLA: Everything we do starts in our home. Like, I consider myself a feminist activist, right? But that doesn’t mean that you’re an activist by going into the street and protesting. Yeah, it’s something that you can do, but maybe not everybody likes it, or maybe you don’t have the opportunity to do it wherever you’re based because of security, because of, I’m in a very small village on an island. People don’t really protest here. There’s a lot of other stuff that you can do. It’s about what kind of conversations are you having with your children? How are you raising your children? What kind of books are you reading? How do you speak with your neighbor? Like, what kind of topics are you bringing up? There’s so much that we can do towards making a change. You use the words ethics, becoming ethical, and it concerns us all. And we all have a responsibility here and we all can do something even if we think, that’s so small. No, it’s not small. Imagine all of us would do something, you know, how things would change.KG: Do you have any observations on ethical dilemmas most relevant today to this field? And what is your advice to practitioners and interested observers.STELLA: I decided and very consciously to center care in everything that I do. And I will never stop centering care. Again, I want people who listen to understand that it doesn’t mean that I don’t make mistakes. It doesn’t mean that I don’t have moments where I freeze. It doesn’t mean that there are no moments. May be I say only half of the things that I actually wanted to say because in that moment maybe I got too emotional or my body was too strong or something, you know, so but it’s like I will never stop centering care in everything I do, whether it’s my work, whether it’s my family, whether it’s my friends. And when I say care, I’m talking about compassion. I’m talking about empathy, attentiveness, being in solidarity with others and acknowledging that we are all interconnected. yeah, care is an ethical principle that really guides my actions. STELLA: And then they played this game musical chairs. And I guess the listeners know it, but you have always one chair less and you have to dance around the chairs and then the music stops and when the music stops, you need to find a chair and whoever doesn’t find a chair is out. It’s like losing the game. and it’s always one chair less. And that to me always was a game that really stressed me out. I hated it so much. And then when the kindergarten said, okay, now we’re to play musical chairs, I was like, why? But then he said, our musical chairs are different because we are being inclusive. And the goal in this game was that everybody needed to find a space to sit. So they would take away chairs but the kids needed to find a way to make every body fit. And he was saying, we win when everyone has a place to sit, when we embrace each other and when we invite everyone into our nest. So the kids were holding each other, kids were sitting on top of each other, hugging each other. And that was so, so beautiful. And that was like an example of how we need to look for the beauty in our daily life in order to be able to center care, to have compassion and keep doing the ethical work, you know. STELLA: So the second one is actually a quote by Paulo Freire and he says in that quote that “Education as the practice of freedom as opposed to education as the practice of domination denies that we are abstract, isolated, independent and unattached to the world. It also denies that the world exists as a reality apart from us.” And this is a quote that shows us that we are all connected to each other. It doesn’t matter where we live, what our sexuality is, our gender, the borders, the location, race, religion, because we do not exist as these hermetically scaled borders, you know. And because of this, we have a responsibility for each other. So what happens to you or what happens in one place is not a reality apart from me. And I think once we recognize this, we will live differently. And I also always say if we all were in love with justice, you know when you’re in love? You don’t care if you don’t sleep. you will, I don’t know, go the extra mile.You get really excited. you want to see the person you’re in love with. So imagine we were all in love with justice, we were all in love with nature, we are all with these things. Our world would be so much different because we would be so intrinsically motivated. Our purpose would be so much higher to do something. KG: How do you combine this wisdom that there is my truth and there’s your truth? KG: And in, for example, the lady who’s probably suggested that game musical chairs might be super excited about the way she’s organizing things. In that moment to step up with honesty and also combine it with care is tricky. Can you share a little bit about how you manage these things? Because that’s very powerful to do all three things at the same time. STELLA: Like I said before, we make mistakes. All of us make mistakes, it’s a process. We have to learn to listen to each other, to truly listen to each other and to also engage with people who are maybe very far away from our beliefs because it’s easy for me just to talk to my comrades, just to talk to my partner, to talk to people that maybe agree with me. That’s easy. We also need to have these conversations that are not easy with people who disagree with us. STELLA: Through our conversation today and also really powerful concepts of being patient, that things take time and being patient with ourselves, with others, there’s always tomorrow, not every battle needs to be fought today and to trust the process and as long as you have baseline values and clarity. It plays out. STELLA: We also and I think that’s another thing also in the world we live in. We want things fast, they have to be linear. Okay, I’m going now into this training and I have to train 30 people and they all have to learn this and this and this. No, it doesn't work like that. Everyone will take something else from and everybody is part of this process and processes sometimes are messy, you know, and nonlinear. And maybe someone will realize in six months something that they heard at that moment and they will feel like, okay, let me check that out. Let me buy that book. Let me go back to that, you know? STELLA: There’s a book, it’s called HOLDING SPACE. It is by AMINATA CAIRO. And it’s a storytelling approach to trampling diversity and inclusion. And it is also about some of the things that we discussed today. It’s about holding space. It’s about doing the love work, as she calls it. It’s about dismantling the relationship between the dominant and the other. And Aminata in her book, she’s very kind-hearted, but also unapologetically honest. And she shares so much wisdom in the book in a very beautiful and in a very accessible way. Because sometimes we might share things, but the language that we use, we exclude others with it because it might be too academic or too niche. But she does it in such a beautiful, honest and accessible way.REFERENCES & LINKS:STELLA’s LinkedIN page LINKEDINSALT THE PODCASTSTELLA’s Suggested BookHOLDING SPACE by AMINATA CAIROThe Human Conversation Podcast ChannelsAPPLE PODCASTSSPOTIFY

The Human Conversation with Stella Saliari

<h2>Guest: Y.N. Vivekananda</h2> Y.N. Vivekananda is a highly experienced Advocate and Senior Standing Counsel for the Central Board of Indirect Taxes and Customs - GST & DRI at the High Court of Andhra Pradesh. Serving in this capacity since 2017, he has been an integral part of the legal landscape, handling significant cases. He was also a Government Pleader attached to the Advocate General, state of Andhra Pradesh from 2019 to 2024 and Special Public Prosecutor AP CID for the Economic Offences Wing-II. With a legal career spanning over two decades, Vivek has been part of various prestigious committees, including the Indian Law Reports Committee. He has represented major institutions like the Food Corporation of India, AP State Financial Corporation, and Life Insurance Corporation of India. Coming from a distinguished legal family, his practice embodies a strong tradition of legal excellence and integrity, reinforced by his deep commitment to upholding justice in high-profile matters before the AP High Court. <h3>HIGHLIGHTS/TAKEAWAYS from Y.N. VIVEKANANDA:</h3> <ul><li>KG: I’ve been following your career with great interest. And one of the first things I wanted to ask you was is there a red thread that ties all of it together for you? What is the driving force behind all that you do?</li><li>VIVEK: The driving force is always the desire to excel. Whatever you do, you should have the desire to excel at whatever you’re doing. The desire keeps me alert. The desire keeps me hungry for more success. You’re also on the right path when you have that desire within you. So, whatever you do, whatever may be the scenario, whatever may be the case, the effort should be to excel.</li><li>KG: Both as a lawyer and as a human being, what do the terms ethics and integrity mean to you?</li><li>VIVEK: In fact, integrity is a bit more, it’s a little bit larger concept than ethics also. Because ethics is something that you inculcate with your discipline. It is something that is told to you to do, either to do or not to do. But then integrity, I think, should come from within. I’ve always maintained my conduct to the level of my integrity. I wanted to maintain even with my staff. I said I will not do anything hanky-panky. I won’t tolerate any hanky-panky. So integrity is that thing. And ethics are something, you know, there are some written ethics, there are some unwritten ethics. You’ll have to understand the rules of the game as you progress. But then they are complementary once again to integrity. A person should have strong integrity first and then he should have the discipline to follow the ethics. And then I think you’re on the road to success.</li><li>KG: Can you share an experience where you had to navigate a difficult ethical dilemma? And what did you learn from that experience?</li><li>VIVEK: The key thing is that, we have a saying in English that means, don’t justify the ends, you know. But then in the practical aspects of life, sometimes I think you need to take a side step to achieve what needs to be done. But then that is where the dilemma is: you know you are doing the right thing, but your ethics or your prevalent set of rules don’t permit you to do that. But at the end of the day, you want to achieve it for the larger good. So you need to set up a boundary for yourself as to how far you’re willing to go. And then conduct yourself in accordance with that.</li><li>KG: Are there constraints in situations for your profession?</li><li>VIVEK: The moment you take things into your own hands and then decide to act, they’ll be hurling allegations at you. They’ll be saying he is interested, has extraneous considerations to argue in the fashion in which he is arguing. They’ll put you through a lot of pressure. And then when you are doing these sort of things, you know, there will always be allegations. They’ll say that he is going beyond his call of duty or they’ll say he’s acting for unnecessary considerations. They’ll say he doesn’t know anything. That’s one danger you face. But I think, it’s all part of the game. You need to be strong because to stand by the truth and to stand by what you believe in is the hardest thing to do always in life. </li><li>VIVEK: We are in the vortex of procedure where you’ll have to prove everything beyond reasonable doubt and then the process of proving itself is a very shackled process, so to say. But then you’ll have to stand up to the test. There are situations where somewhere you’ll be caught. That is where you’ll have to come up with some, what to say, ingenuity of your own and then break that shackle, go to the next phase, go to the next step and then ultimately emerge doing what is right. What has to be done, has to be done.</li><li>KG: As a litigation expert and practicing lawyer for over 20 years, what are some ethical dilemmas relevant to lawyers today that you observe? And what is your advice to perhaps younger lawyers for such situations?</li><li>VIVEK: The first ethical dilemma I see in the lawyers now is my point of view is that they’re over reliance on technology. I think somewhere, you should set a boundary for yourself. Technology is good in one aspect. The over reliance on AI to do your research for you is bad. Because while there is a vast amount of information available, in the internet or maybe in cyberspace, I personally feel that you should use technology to the extent of narrowing down the information. You need to apply yourself to that information on an individual level, at an individual basis, case to case basis. And then, you should do your research. You can’t allow the computer or AI to tell you that is the case law app for your case. You need to study your own case first and then for yourself determine whether a certain case law that is suggested by the AI or any search engine for that matter is up for you to court before or court of law or not.</li><li>VIVEK: The second thing, I always feel that this profession is one of the oldest and it is called a Noble Profession. You know, you should always have a sense of duty towards society while you’re doing it. It’s not all about earning money. The old saying is live like a hermit, work like a horse. Probably doesn’t hold true these days. You need not live like a hermit. But then at the same time, don’t make a commercial activity out of it. Have a sense of duty towards society. Your effort in a case especially cannot be determined by the amount of fees you get. Whatever may be the fees you get, whether it’s 1 rupee or 1 crore, your effort should always shine through. That should be the endeavor, that is what I think in any given case.</li><li>KG: Do you have a story of something you observed maybe in all of your years of practice that is a shining example of the kind of lawyer with ethics that you have seen in action, a story where the profession of law illuminated the way for society the way you’ve described it. Do you have a story or an incident you’d like to share?</li><li>VIVEK: I have a small anecdote, in fact, it’s a small funny anecdote. It actually happened in a court, call it an urban legend or whatever, but it actually happened in a court where a junior robbed a member of the bar for probably the first day into practice. And then, he was asked by a senior to go and represent in a court and ask for time. This junior in all his innocence went before the court and when the case was called, he said, my Lord may I know what is the time? The judge was shocked. The judge was like, you have a watch on your hand. Why are you asking me the time? He said, no sir, my senior told me to ask you the time, so I’m asking you. So that’s the kind of thing.</li><li>VIVEK: (Advice to Lawyers) The results may be anything but then you’ll have to stand up to all the probably jeering, disencouragement or whatever, and then you’ll have to put forth your case.</li><li>KG: These are the kind of values that I grew up with as well in terms of great respect for the court of law and for laws. The rule of law being important and governing everything. But it’s a hard knock life for lawyers, isn’t it? It’s a tough profession to survive in. There’s so many pressures, so many priorities, so many stakeholders to manage, you billable hours, your bosses, your bosses' stakeholders and their pressures, your clients, your family. I’m sure with the hours you put in you feel that pull.</li><li>KG: What lies ahead for lawyers like you, and those coming after you? We know that AI is coming in. You’ve already flagged it and said, "be moderate in how much you trust AI and how much you rely on it." What else lies ahead for the profession of law?</li><li> VIVEK: You need to stick to the basics. And then, I always feel, as a lawyer for you to evolve, there’s something more beyond the law also. You need to have an all-rounded personality. You need to have a perception as to how the society itself is evolving. You need to keep yourself updated with regards to the technology. And also you need to keep yourself grounded with regards to how far you can go, what you can achieve and do in the given circumstances. That’s why my advice to all lawyers is to have a well-rounded personality. Don’t just read law books. If you are fond of reading, have a general reading. If you are fond of sports, you go have a game or two everyday or in a given week at any given point of time where you’re free, of tennis or golf or whatever it is that you enjoy. Also, develop a spiritual bent of mind that is my sincere advice to all persons. Read up, keep yourself alive to that side, the personality or that aspect of your life also. That will give you an understanding much more beyond what law evolves.</li><li>KG: What does it do for you and how do you ground yourself using your spiritualism and what does that do for you when you practice it?</li><li>VIVEK: I think spiritualism at whatever, maybe I don’t pinpoint to one religion, but then generally spiritualism, you know, it will keep you balanced. You are not over excited with the victory. You are not too deflated with defeat. It will give you a sense of equanimity. It will, it keeps you floating. If not flying or sinking. So I think that’s what you need to develop.</li><li>VIVEK: They're a great set of books you know, find your own. I would personally prefer everyone to read the Autobiography of A Yogi, which I read, which I found was very helpful, or the regular Gita or Mahabharata, Ramayana, whatever suits you or even any other, depending on your religion or taste. But then those books, they will give you a different perspective on law also. That has been my experience. So I think that is where people should head themselves towards.</li><li>KG: So what’s a book or advice that you'd like to share? Is there something that’s currently on your mind that’s inspiring?</li><li>VIVEK: There is one quote which recently caught my eye. Failing to prepare is preparing to fail. So as a lawyer, I think there is a better or more relevant quote than that. Whenever you are going into a court of law, you should go and prepare and then unless you are prepared, you are only preparing to go and fail there in the court of law.</li><li>VIVEK: Law is something that is evolving. The judges take care of the law. But then as a lawyer, especially in our profession, I think we should be abreast and we should be to the point with regard to the positions of fact, which are there on the record. Law is something you can innovate, you can come up along the way also. And then whatever you argue ultimately, I know as it is funny or in a lighter way to toll down the generation to us that what you make is an argument, what the judge says is the judgement so we can only come up with an argument if it merits acceptance it becomes a judgement even if it doesn’t merit an acceptance it becomes a judgement so we’ll have to bow down and acknowledge it you’re aggrieved go up in appeal or accept it in all humility that is what you can do.</li></ul>  <h3>REFERENCES OR LINKS TO SHARE:</h3> Y.N. VIVEKANANDA ’s LinkedIn<a href="https://www.linkedin.com/in/naga-vivekananda-yadavalli-91049720/" rel="noopener noreferrer" target="_blank" style="color: rgb(17, 85, 204);">LINKEDIN</a> Books/Article Suggestions from Y.N. VIVEKANANDA<a href="https://www.ananda.org/autobiography/" rel="noopener noreferrer" target="_blank" style="color: rgb(17, 85, 204);">AUTOBIOGRAPHY OF A YOGI</a><a href="https://www.britannica.com/topic/Ramayana-Indian-epic" rel="noopener noreferrer" target="_blank" style="color: rgb(17, 85, 204);">RAMAYANA</a><a href="https://www.britannica.com/topic/Mahabharata" rel="noopener noreferrer" target="_blank" style="color: rgb(17, 85, 204);">MAHABHARATA</a><a href="https://www.britannica.com/topic/Bhagavadgita" rel="noopener noreferrer" target="_blank" style="color: rgb(17, 85, 204);">BHAGAVADGITA</a> The Human Conversation Podcast Channels<a href="https://podcasts.apple.com/us/podcast/the-human-conversation-podcast-on-leadership-and-ethics/id1736302989" rel="noopener noreferrer" target="_blank" style="color: rgb(17, 85, 204);">APPLE PODCASTS</a><a href="https://open.spotify.com/show/2DLMqNqgKZTKyB8zcw5MF0?si=a5c9d1e15b6e4ac3" rel="noopener noreferrer" target="_blank" style="color: rgb(17, 85, 204);">SPOTIFY</a>

Guest: Y.N. VivekanandaY.N. Vivekananda is a highly experienced Advocate and Senior Standing Counsel for the Central Board of Indirect Taxes and Customs - GST & DRI at the High Court of Andhra Pradesh. Serving in this capacity since 2017, he has been an integral part of the legal landscape, handling significant cases. He was also a Government Pleader attached to the Advocate General, state of Andhra Pradesh from 2019 to 2024 and Special Public Prosecutor AP CID for the Economic Offences Wing-II.With a legal career spanning over two decades, Vivek has been part of various prestigious committees, including the Indian Law Reports Committee. He has represented major institutions like the Food Corporation of India, AP State Financial Corporation, and Life Insurance Corporation of India. Coming from a distinguished legal family, his practice embodies a strong tradition of legal excellence and integrity, reinforced by his deep commitment to upholding justice in high-profile matters before the AP High Court.HIGHLIGHTS/TAKEAWAYS from Y.N. VIVEKANANDA:KG: I’ve been following your career with great interest. And one of the first things I wanted to ask you was is there a red thread that ties all of it together for you? What is the driving force behind all that you do?VIVEK: The driving force is always the desire to excel. Whatever you do, you should have the desire to excel at whatever you’re doing. The desire keeps me alert. The desire keeps me hungry for more success. You’re also on the right path when you have that desire within you. So, whatever you do, whatever may be the scenario, whatever may be the case, the effort should be to excel.KG: Both as a lawyer and as a human being, what do the terms ethics and integrity mean to you?VIVEK: In fact, integrity is a bit more, it’s a little bit larger concept than ethics also. Because ethics is something that you inculcate with your discipline. It is something that is told to you to do, either to do or not to do. But then integrity, I think, should come from within. I’ve always maintained my conduct to the level of my integrity. I wanted to maintain even with my staff. I said I will not do anything hanky-panky. I won’t tolerate any hanky-panky. So integrity is that thing. And ethics are something, you know, there are some written ethics, there are some unwritten ethics. You’ll have to understand the rules of the game as you progress. But then they are complementary once again to integrity. A person should have strong integrity first and then he should have the discipline to follow the ethics. And then I think you’re on the road to success.KG: Can you share an experience where you had to navigate a difficult ethical dilemma? And what did you learn from that experience?VIVEK: The key thing is that, we have a saying in English that means, don’t justify the ends, you know. But then in the practical aspects of life, sometimes I think you need to take a side step to achieve what needs to be done. But then that is where the dilemma is: you know you are doing the right thing, but your ethics or your prevalent set of rules don’t permit you to do that. But at the end of the day, you want to achieve it for the larger good. So you need to set up a boundary for yourself as to how far you’re willing to go. And then conduct yourself in accordance with that.KG: Are there constraints in situations for your profession?VIVEK: The moment you take things into your own hands and then decide to act, they’ll be hurling allegations at you. They’ll be saying he is interested, has extraneous considerations to argue in the fashion in which he is arguing. They’ll put you through a lot of pressure. And then when you are doing these sort of things, you know, there will always be allegations. They’ll say that he is going beyond his call of duty or they’ll say he’s acting for unnecessary considerations. They’ll say he doesn’t know anything. That’s one danger you face. But I think, it’s all part of the game. You need to be strong because to stand by the truth and to stand by what you believe in is the hardest thing to do always in life. VIVEK: We are in the vortex of procedure where you’ll have to prove everything beyond reasonable doubt and then the process of proving itself is a very shackled process, so to say. But then you’ll have to stand up to the test. There are situations where somewhere you’ll be caught. That is where you’ll have to come up with some, what to say, ingenuity of your own and then break that shackle, go to the next phase, go to the next step and then ultimately emerge doing what is right. What has to be done, has to be done.KG: As a litigation expert and practicing lawyer for over 20 years, what are some ethical dilemmas relevant to lawyers today that you observe? And what is your advice to perhaps younger lawyers for such situations?VIVEK: The first ethical dilemma I see in the lawyers now is my point of view is that they’re over reliance on technology. I think somewhere, you should set a boundary for yourself. Technology is good in one aspect. The over reliance on AI to do your research for you is bad. Because while there is a vast amount of information available, in the internet or maybe in cyberspace, I personally feel that you should use technology to the extent of narrowing down the information. You need to apply yourself to that information on an individual level, at an individual basis, case to case basis. And then, you should do your research. You can’t allow the computer or AI to tell you that is the case law app for your case. You need to study your own case first and then for yourself determine whether a certain case law that is suggested by the AI or any search engine for that matter is up for you to court before or court of law or not.VIVEK: The second thing, I always feel that this profession is one of the oldest and it is called a Noble Profession. You know, you should always have a sense of duty towards society while you’re doing it. It’s not all about earning money. The old saying is live like a hermit, work like a horse. Probably doesn’t hold true these days. You need not live like a hermit. But then at the same time, don’t make a commercial activity out of it. Have a sense of duty towards society. Your effort in a case especially cannot be determined by the amount of fees you get. Whatever may be the fees you get, whether it’s 1 rupee or 1 crore, your effort should always shine through. That should be the endeavor, that is what I think in any given case.KG: Do you have a story of something you observed maybe in all of your years of practice that is a shining example of the kind of lawyer with ethics that you have seen in action, a story where the profession of law illuminated the way for society the way you’ve described it. Do you have a story or an incident you’d like to share?VIVEK: I have a small anecdote, in fact, it’s a small funny anecdote. It actually happened in a court, call it an urban legend or whatever, but it actually happened in a court where a junior robbed a member of the bar for probably the first day into practice. And then, he was asked by a senior to go and represent in a court and ask for time. This junior in all his innocence went before the court and when the case was called, he said, my Lord may I know what is the time? The judge was shocked. The judge was like, you have a watch on your hand. Why are you asking me the time? He said, no sir, my senior told me to ask you the time, so I’m asking you. So that’s the kind of thing.VIVEK: (Advice to Lawyers) The results may be anything but then you’ll have to stand up to all the probably jeering, disencouragement or whatever, and then you’ll have to put forth your case.KG: These are the kind of values that I grew up with as well in terms of great respect for the court of law and for laws. The rule of law being important and governing everything. But it’s a hard knock life for lawyers, isn’t it? It’s a tough profession to survive in. There’s so many pressures, so many priorities, so many stakeholders to manage, you billable hours, your bosses, your bosses' stakeholders and their pressures, your clients, your family. I’m sure with the hours you put in you feel that pull.KG: What lies ahead for lawyers like you, and those coming after you? We know that AI is coming in. You’ve already flagged it and said, "be moderate in how much you trust AI and how much you rely on it." What else lies ahead for the profession of law? VIVEK: You need to stick to the basics. And then, I always feel, as a lawyer for you to evolve, there’s something more beyond the law also. You need to have an all-rounded personality. You need to have a perception as to how the society itself is evolving. You need to keep yourself updated with regards to the technology. And also you need to keep yourself grounded with regards to how far you can go, what you can achieve and do in the given circumstances. That’s why my advice to all lawyers is to have a well-rounded personality. Don’t just read law books. If you are fond of reading, have a general reading. If you are fond of sports, you go have a game or two everyday or in a given week at any given point of time where you’re free, of tennis or golf or whatever it is that you enjoy. Also, develop a spiritual bent of mind that is my sincere advice to all persons. Read up, keep yourself alive to that side, the personality or that aspect of your life also. That will give you an understanding much more beyond what law evolves.KG: What does it do for you and how do you ground yourself using your spiritualism and what does that do for you when you practice it?VIVEK: I think spiritualism at whatever, maybe I don’t pinpoint to one religion, but then generally spiritualism, you know, it will keep you balanced. You are not over excited with the victory. You are not too deflated with defeat. It will give you a sense of equanimity. It will, it keeps you floating. If not flying or sinking. So I think that’s what you need to develop.VIVEK: They're a great set of books you know, find your own. I would personally prefer everyone to read the Autobiography of A Yogi, which I read, which I found was very helpful, or the regular Gita or Mahabharata, Ramayana, whatever suits you or even any other, depending on your religion or taste. But then those books, they will give you a different perspective on law also. That has been my experience. So I think that is where people should head themselves towards.KG: So what’s a book or advice that you'd like to share? Is there something that’s currently on your mind that’s inspiring?VIVEK: There is one quote which recently caught my eye. Failing to prepare is preparing to fail. So as a lawyer, I think there is a better or more relevant quote than that. Whenever you are going into a court of law, you should go and prepare and then unless you are prepared, you are only preparing to go and fail there in the court of law.VIVEK: Law is something that is evolving. The judges take care of the law. But then as a lawyer, especially in our profession, I think we should be abreast and we should be to the point with regard to the positions of fact, which are there on the record. Law is something you can innovate, you can come up along the way also. And then whatever you argue ultimately, I know as it is funny or in a lighter way to toll down the generation to us that what you make is an argument, what the judge says is the judgement so we can only come up with an argument if it merits acceptance it becomes a judgement even if it doesn’t merit an acceptance it becomes a judgement so we’ll have to bow down and acknowledge it you’re aggrieved go up in appeal or accept it in all humility that is what you can do. REFERENCES OR LINKS TO SHARE: Y.N. VIVEKANANDA ’s LinkedInLINKEDINBooks/Article Suggestions from Y.N. VIVEKANANDAAUTOBIOGRAPHY OF A YOGIRAMAYANAMAHABHARATABHAGAVADGITAThe Human Conversation Podcast ChannelsAPPLE PODCASTSSPOTIFY

The Human Conversation with Y.N. Vivekananda

Guest: Virginie Martins de Nobrega Virginie Martins de Nobrega is a practicing Lawyer at the Paris Bar and a Mediator based in Paris and Brussels. She acts as a Senior Advisor or Board Member for international actors (IO, INGO and foundations, Corporations. In 2016, Virginie founded a niche advising firm called CREATIVE RESOLUTION to address the need for innovation when addressing global political, economic, legal, social and cultural challenges. Most recently (EMBA, 2018), she conducted research on the risks and opportunities of Artificial Intelligence (A.I) to leverage the impact, speed, and efficiency of public policies and initiatives in relation to the SDGs with a focus on the United Nations innovation ecosystem. She oriented her research on global governance, management and organizational strategies, public policies and ethics. She is passionate about progress for all and thrives in making connections between disparate concepts and across sectors. She advises and supports international stakeholders to be more impactful and efficient adopting a hands-on approach. She believes and advocates for a shift of paradigm in which sustainable profits are defined by a human-centered and human-rights approach coupled with a positive social impact, while grounded on business financial and economic realities. <h3>HIGHLIGHTS & TAKEAWAYS:</h3> <ul><li>Virginie: “I think the red thread for me has always been to work and be engaged on legal and political issues that have societal implications. And also about always bringing, connecting the dots by having a systematic approach, a transdisciplinary approach to try to tap into our collective intelligence.”</li><li>“I think my driving force is kind of anger, anger for equality for all, progress for all, humanity for all and our humaneness.”</li><li>At a personal level, I would say that it's really your foundation, your principles, your purpose. But it's also a compass and a horizon line to what you do, what you decide to be. And it does give you congruence. And it also helps you and enables you, I think, to show up with congruence and to act accordingly, which I think does provide a certain stability and also helps you build trust with people because they can rely on you based on your ethics and they know they can trust you.”</li><li>Ethics is very important as lawyers. And when you think of ethics at a professional level, I think we are very lucky, at least in France, because when you are swearing to become a lawyer, you have to take an oath in front of a judge and your peers where you have to swear that you’re going to carry out your duties with independence, conscience, integrity, probity and humanity. And I think those values really are key ethical values and skills and a way to act.</li><li>And so you are facing navigating the fact that you want to drive change within the organization. But you are facing people who are reflecting you on ethics that is absolute opposite of what you are and what you are doing and criticizing you and even sometimes really like you are having the impression that you are like sacrificed in the public sphere. And it is has been very challenging.</li><li>And what I learned is that your ethics can be yet subjective and your ethics is your ethics, but the law is the law.</li><li>And the last thing, which was not easy for me at a certain moment in time in my career is that, you know, there are a thousand of interesting people, there are a thousand and millions of people in this world that just want to do better, that wants to work with you, just find them, you know, keep doing until you find them. Don’t stay and don’t compromise about your ethics and who you are, because that’s the core of who you are.</li><li>It’s what is in my power, what is not. If I feel that I need to rest, but I don’t have time, that’s where I need to rest and take the time. Because if you take the proper test and the proper distances, then you are much more impactful afterwards.</li><li>I think this is when you need to know the right colleagues and peers around you when they can tell you, hey, that’s okay. We’re going to handle it later or we did the best we could. Now it’s time to let it go. And when it comes to the point where you can’t handle it anymore, then it’s time to, I think, reconsider your activities and put back your well being at the center and stop for a moment, even if it takes months, but you have to stop.</li><li>I think, or my impression, is we’re lacking a bit of sense of beauty, you know, like everything seems to, it’s a constant reminder that everything is ugly, that everything is not going round and we are losing the battle on the environment, climate change and on the human rights. And there is not something that transcends us. We are just facing ugliness all the time. Not that we have to be naive and not see what is happening with crises and wars everywhere, which is shocking. But can we also see the beauty?Can we also see hope? and compassion and things that are still there, but we just don’t see it or we don’t put our intention into it. It’s like we are denied this right to see beauty when we need it as a collectivity and as human. And for me, I’m like, where is beauty? And sometimes it’s about walking and say, where is the flower? And it was little tiny things or someone smiling and a smile can really make a lot difference in someone’s life and in your daily life.</li><li>I think the challenge now is having clarity of those things and crystal clear all the time, having consistency and congruence and always thinking of that. Working the talk, which is part of integrity and not just preaching, just to avoid green watching and human rights watching, but do the work. I think it’s good to get crystal clear. And I think also it’s to keep in mind something I’ve been strongly advocating for is that having a societal, social, human rights, human rights-based international approach to things, it’s a key driver for success. It’s good business. It’s smart business. It’s KPIs. So there is a shift of paradigm between profits and human rights. All of them come together.</li><li>Constant reminders/steps from Virginie: 1)Matching 2) Fit for purpose analysis 3) Measure one or two KPIs per year 4) Brainstorm</li><li>There is to be, to have an alignment between the tokens, the action and congruence and integrity, and also being very strict and stricter when we talk about the law.</li><li>The first one is the Gandhi quote that you have to be the change you want to see in the world. This is so simple and so complicated and complex and powerful if you really as a professional, but also as a person. You integrate, which I think is beautiful.</li><li>Another quote that I think is a compass that I think I wish we can remember all the time is science without conscience is really the ruin of the soul. And I think nowadays it’s when it comes to bringing back our humanity, human centric approach and our humaneness, it’s really about that. Science can be a great vehicle for progress, but we need to be aware of it and put our conscience and even our heart into it.</li><li>Maybe we won’t succeed in achieving everything we want, but I think we owe it to ourselves and to society to just continue to pursue our dreams to the best of our abilities and the opportunities you are given. And I also think that we really have, we are at this moment in time where we really have to tap into this challenge to tap into our potential that is not exploitation in a smarter way. And really focus on what makes us human and what do we want.</li></ul> <h3>REFERENCES & LINKS:</h3> Virginie’s LinkedIN and website:<a href="https://www.linkedin.com/in/virginiemartinsdenobrega/" rel="noopener noreferrer" target="_blank">LinkedIN</a><a href="https://www.linkedin.com/company/creative-resolution/" rel="noopener noreferrer" target="_blank">Creative Resolution</a> Virginie’s suggested article/book:<a href="https://www.unesco.org/en/days/tolerance#:~:text=Among%20other%20things%2C%20the%20Declaration,and%20fundamental%20freedoms%20of%20others." rel="noopener noreferrer" target="_blank">UNESCO</a><a href="https://kinginstitute.stanford.edu/strength-love" rel="noopener noreferrer" target="_blank">Stanford-Strengths to Love by MLK</a> The Human Conversation Podcast Channels:<a href="https://podcasts.apple.com/us/podcast/the-human-conversation-podcast-on-leadership-and-ethics/id1736302989" rel="noopener noreferrer" target="_blank">APPLE PODCASTS</a><a href="https://open.spotify.com/show/2DLMqNqgKZTKyB8zcw5MF0?si=a5c9d1e15b6e4ac3" rel="noopener noreferrer" target="_blank">SPOTIFY</a>

Guest: Virginie Martins de Nobrega Virginie Martins de Nobrega is a practicing Lawyer at the Paris Bar and a Mediator based in Paris and Brussels. She acts as a Senior Advisor or Board Member for international actors (IO, INGO and foundations, Corporations. In 2016, Virginie founded a niche advising firm called CREATIVE RESOLUTION to address the need for innovation when addressing global political, economic, legal, social and cultural challenges. Most recently (EMBA, 2018), she conducted research on the risks and opportunities of Artificial Intelligence (A.I) to leverage the impact, speed, and efficiency of public policies and initiatives in relation to the SDGs with a focus on the United Nations innovation ecosystem. She oriented her research on global governance, management and organizational strategies, public policies and ethics. She is passionate about progress for all and thrives in making connections between disparate concepts and across sectors. She advises and supports international stakeholders to be more impactful and efficient adopting a hands-on approach. She believes and advocates for a shift of paradigm in which sustainable profits are defined by a human-centered and human-rights approach coupled with a positive social impact, while grounded on business financial and economic realities. HIGHLIGHTS & TAKEAWAYS: Virginie: “I think the red thread for me has always been to work and be engaged on legal and political issues that have societal implications. And also about always bringing, connecting the dots by having a systematic approach, a transdisciplinary approach to try to tap into our collective intelligence.”“I think my driving force is kind of anger, anger for equality for all, progress for all, humanity for all and our humaneness.”At a personal level, I would say that it's really your foundation, your principles, your purpose. But it's also a compass and a horizon line to what you do, what you decide to be. And it does give you congruence. And it also helps you and enables you, I think, to show up with congruence and to act accordingly, which I think does provide a certain stability and also helps you build trust with people because they can rely on you based on your ethics and they know they can trust you.”Ethics is very important as lawyers. And when you think of ethics at a professional level, I think we are very lucky, at least in France, because when you are swearing to become a lawyer, you have to take an oath in front of a judge and your peers where you have to swear that you’re going to carry out your duties with independence, conscience, integrity, probity and humanity. And I think those values really are key ethical values and skills and a way to act.And so you are facing navigating the fact that you want to drive change within the organization. But you are facing people who are reflecting you on ethics that is absolute opposite of what you are and what you are doing and criticizing you and even sometimes really like you are having the impression that you are like sacrificed in the public sphere. And it is has been very challenging.And what I learned is that your ethics can be yet subjective and your ethics is your ethics, but the law is the law.And the last thing, which was not easy for me at a certain moment in time in my career is that, you know, there are a thousand of interesting people, there are a thousand and millions of people in this world that just want to do better, that wants to work with you, just find them, you know, keep doing until you find them. Don’t stay and don’t compromise about your ethics and who you are, because that’s the core of who you are.It’s what is in my power, what is not. If I feel that I need to rest, but I don’t have time, that’s where I need to rest and take the time. Because if you take the proper test and the proper distances, then you are much more impactful afterwards.I think this is when you need to know the right colleagues and peers around you when they can tell you, hey, that’s okay. We’re going to handle it later or we did the best we could. Now it’s time to let it go. And when it comes to the point where you can’t handle it anymore, then it’s time to, I think, reconsider your activities and put back your well being at the center and stop for a moment, even if it takes months, but you have to stop.I think, or my impression, is we’re lacking a bit of sense of beauty, you know, like everything seems to, it’s a constant reminder that everything is ugly, that everything is not going round and we are losing the battle on the environment, climate change and on the human rights. And there is not something that transcends us. We are just facing ugliness all the time. Not that we have to be naive and not see what is happening with crises and wars everywhere, which is shocking. But can we also see the beauty?Can we also see hope? and compassion and things that are still there, but we just don’t see it or we don’t put our intention into it. It’s like we are denied this right to see beauty when we need it as a collectivity and as human. And for me, I’m like, where is beauty? And sometimes it’s about walking and say, where is the flower? And it was little tiny things or someone smiling and a smile can really make a lot difference in someone’s life and in your daily life.I think the challenge now is having clarity of those things and crystal clear all the time, having consistency and congruence and always thinking of that. Working the talk, which is part of integrity and not just preaching, just to avoid green watching and human rights watching, but do the work. I think it’s good to get crystal clear. And I think also it’s to keep in mind something I’ve been strongly advocating for is that having a societal, social, human rights, human rights-based international approach to things, it’s a key driver for success. It’s good business. It’s smart business. It’s KPIs. So there is a shift of paradigm between profits and human rights. All of them come together.Constant reminders/steps from Virginie: 1)Matching 2) Fit for purpose analysis 3) Measure one or two KPIs per year 4) BrainstormThere is to be, to have an alignment between the tokens, the action and congruence and integrity, and also being very strict and stricter when we talk about the law.The first one is the Gandhi quote that you have to be the change you want to see in the world. This is so simple and so complicated and complex and powerful if you really as a professional, but also as a person. You integrate, which I think is beautiful.Another quote that I think is a compass that I think I wish we can remember all the time is science without conscience is really the ruin of the soul. And I think nowadays it’s when it comes to bringing back our humanity, human centric approach and our humaneness, it’s really about that. Science can be a great vehicle for progress, but we need to be aware of it and put our conscience and even our heart into it.Maybe we won’t succeed in achieving everything we want, but I think we owe it to ourselves and to society to just continue to pursue our dreams to the best of our abilities and the opportunities you are given. And I also think that we really have, we are at this moment in time where we really have to tap into this challenge to tap into our potential that is not exploitation in a smarter way. And really focus on what makes us human and what do we want. REFERENCES & LINKS: Virginie’s LinkedIN and website:LinkedINCreative ResolutionVirginie’s suggested article/book:UNESCOStanford-Strengths to Love by MLKThe Human Conversation Podcast Channels:APPLE PODCASTSSPOTIFY

The Human Conversation with Virginie Martins de Nobrega

Guest: Kristen Anderson Kristen Anderson, CEO and Board Member of European Women on BoardsFormer Chief Diversity and Inclusion Officer of Barilla Group. Kristen is currently the CEO of European Women on Boards (EWOB), a member of the EWOB Board since 2021 and leads the EWOB Executive Committee. EWOB is the European umbrella association for gender equality at decision-making level; a non-profit organisation whose aim is to increase gender diversity in C-Suite and Board roles throughout Europe and beyond. From 2016-2021, Kristen was Chief Diversity and Inclusion Officer for Barilla and had been a member of its D&I Board since its formation in 2013. Kristen reported to the CEO of Barilla and led a 12 member D&I Board, comprised of internal members from 8 regions and external advisors. After a Master’s Degree in Chemical Engineering, Kristen worked in the Food Industry for over 25 years, leading various R&D teams in diverse geographies such as Australia, Germany, China, India, South Africa, Singapore, Italy and originally the USA. HIGHLIGHTS & TAKEAWAYS: <ul><li>KG: What’s the driving force behind all that you do?</li><li>“I really focus on trying to experience, what other people are experiencing from my time of working around the world. Throughout my work around the world, I see there is always a group that is excluded. This impacts business results and morale. So what really drives me is saying, this should not be the way it is. We should not say, it’s okay, some groups will be the majority and the minority just has to stay quiet and go along. What’s the point of having diverse opinions if we’re not listening to them? This really makes me passionate about working on inclusion. To have the voice of the underrepresented be heard by others. This will only make whatever we are doing stronger and make working together better.”</li><li>KG: “ What do the terms ethics and integrity mean to you?”</li><li>KRISTEN: “INTEGRITY means I have to live true to my values. And if I feel I’m in a situation that I can’t , I can’t just stay there. I need to figure out some way that either I can change it so that I can be true to my values or in some cases I leave organizations because I don’t feel that their values are aligned with mine. So integrity means walking the talk.</li><li>KRISTEN: Ethics, are part of your own upbringing and part of company ethics. And I think ethics are much easier sometimes to define. They have an ethics code of conduct, et cetera, which means that there’s a lot of things with compliance there. But for me, I feel I need to be behaving in an ethical way, but very much of integrity that’s aligned with personal values.”</li><li>KG: “Would you be able to share any story where you personally had a tough time navigating a difficult ethical dilemma in a professional role? And how did that shape your approach going forward?”</li><li>KRISTEN: “I think we’ve all known in companies that there are some people who are really good performers who deliver great business results, but everyone knows that there are horrible managers. They treat their employees not well, not inclusive. Even worse, you know, harassing or bullying. A lot of times you see bullying.</li><li>KRISTEN: “ I had to figure out another way to move forward with something, some action that would try to change this behavior. I would go back to people and say can I use your comments anonymously? Who else would have similar experience so that I could try to talk to them privately and confidentially? ”</li><li>“ It took courage. It took a way to not disclose confidential information, but at the same time, try to figure out a way to get enough comments that it could go forward. Because again, doing nothing, to me, is just, I mean, it’s not only a feeling for the people who can’t necessarily have a voice, who are afraid to lose their jobs. Someone has to speak up for them. And I think figure out a way to do this within the confines of your company or organization.”</li><li>“I think there is always something you can do, even speaking to someone and trying to support them. I think it’s, you know, again, it’s bad about making the voices of the underrepresented or those who are being bullied, et cetera, heard, because you maybe have more power and you have more privilege than others.”</li><li>KG asks “Do you have any advice for those who are really new at any place, right? Whether it’s region, sector, role and any advice for them on how to integrate and thrive?”</li><li>“Sometimes I make the analogy, Kaumudi, it’s just, I’m like I think of myself lying on a beach and letting the waves just watch over me. So what people are saying is something that I’m feeling, I’m listening to, but I don’t have to get defensive about it. And no one’s telling you to take every piece of feedback and do something with it. Some people who you will trust more, but then let it wash over you like you're a sponge and just take it and decide how that makes you a better manager and a better leader. It’s not taking something away from you. It is adding something to you. ”</li><li>“Someone gave me advice one time saying, Kirsten, you will learn something from all the managers that you’ve ever had. You’ll learn something from the good managers, and you will also learn something from the worst managers, because you’ll learn how you never want to manage.”</li><li>KG: Is there a quote or book that’s currently inspiring you? Anything you want to recommend to our listeners? KRISTEN: The newsletter I think you might know the poet Maya Angelou. And she says, “People will forget what you said, people will forget what you did, but they will never forget how you made them feel.”</li></ul> REFERENCES & LINKS: <ul><li>European Womens On Board</li></ul><a href="https://www.linkedin.com/company/europeanwomenonboards/" rel="noopener noreferrer" target="_blank">EWOB LINKEDIN</a><a href="https://europeanwomenonboards.eu/research-diversity-european-boards/" rel="noopener noreferrer" target="_blank">EWOB WEBSITE</a> <ul><li>KRISTEN’s LinkedIN</li></ul><a href="https://www.linkedin.com/in/kristen-anderson-aaa44a8/" rel="noopener noreferrer" target="_blank">LINKEDIN</a> <ul><li>The Human Conversation Podcast Channels</li></ul><a href="https://podcasts.apple.com/us/podcast/the-human-conversation-podcast-on-leadership-and-ethics/id1736302989" rel="noopener noreferrer" target="_blank">APPLE PODCASTS</a><a href="https://open.spotify.com/show/2DLMqNqgKZTKyB8zcw5MF0?si=a5c9d1e15b6e4ac3" rel="noopener noreferrer" target="_blank">SPOTIFY</a><a href="https://music.amazon.com/podcasts/62e2c017-d8e1-415d-a60f-f81b1fd363e4/the-human-conversation-podcast-on-leadership-and-ethics" rel="noopener noreferrer" target="_blank">AMAZON MUSIC</a><a href="https://www.listennotes.com/podcasts/the-human-conversation-podcast-on-wmCBJ82p7z0/" rel="noopener noreferrer" target="_blank">LISTEN NOTES</a><a href="https://podcastindex.org/podcast/6836931" rel="noopener noreferrer" target="_blank">PODCAST INDEX</a><a href="https://pca.st/ctrv2ktb" rel="noopener noreferrer" target="_blank">POCKET CASTS</a>

Guest: Kristen Anderson Kristen Anderson, CEO and Board Member of European Women on BoardsFormer Chief Diversity and Inclusion Officer of Barilla Group.Kristen is currently the CEO of European Women on Boards (EWOB), a member of the EWOB Board since 2021 and leads the EWOB Executive Committee. EWOB is the European umbrella association for gender equality at decision-making level; a non-profit organisation whose aim is to increase gender diversity in C-Suite and Board roles throughout Europe and beyond.From 2016-2021, Kristen was Chief Diversity and Inclusion Officer for Barilla and had been a member of its D&I Board since its formation in 2013. Kristen reported to the CEO of Barilla and led a 12 member D&I Board, comprised of internal members from 8 regions and external advisors.After a Master’s Degree in Chemical Engineering, Kristen worked in the Food Industry for over 25 years, leading various R&D teams in diverse geographies such as Australia, Germany, China, India, South Africa, Singapore, Italy and originally the USA. HIGHLIGHTS & TAKEAWAYS:KG: What’s the driving force behind all that you do?“I really focus on trying to experience, what other people are experiencing from my time of working around the world. Throughout my work around the world, I see there is always a group that is excluded. This impacts business results and morale. So what really drives me is saying, this should not be the way it is. We should not say, it’s okay, some groups will be the majority and the minority just has to stay quiet and go along. What’s the point of having diverse opinions if we’re not listening to them? This really makes me passionate about working on inclusion. To have the voice of the underrepresented be heard by others. This will only make whatever we are doing stronger and make working together better.”KG: “ What do the terms ethics and integrity mean to you?”KRISTEN: “INTEGRITY means I have to live true to my values. And if I feel I’m in a situation that I can’t , I can’t just stay there. I need to figure out some way that either I can change it so that I can be true to my values or in some cases I leave organizations because I don’t feel that their values are aligned with mine. So integrity means walking the talk.KRISTEN: Ethics, are part of your own upbringing and part of company ethics. And I think ethics are much easier sometimes to define. They have an ethics code of conduct, et cetera, which means that there’s a lot of things with compliance there. But for me, I feel I need to be behaving in an ethical way, but very much of integrity that’s aligned with personal values.”KG: “Would you be able to share any story where you personally had a tough time navigating a difficult ethical dilemma in a professional role? And how did that shape your approach going forward?”KRISTEN: “I think we’ve all known in companies that there are some people who are really good performers who deliver great business results, but everyone knows that there are horrible managers. They treat their employees not well, not inclusive. Even worse, you know, harassing or bullying. A lot of times you see bullying.KRISTEN: “ I had to figure out another way to move forward with something, some action that would try to change this behavior. I would go back to people and say can I use your comments anonymously? Who else would have similar experience so that I could try to talk to them privately and confidentially? ”“ It took courage. It took a way to not disclose confidential information, but at the same time, try to figure out a way to get enough comments that it could go forward. Because again, doing nothing, to me, is just, I mean, it’s not only a feeling for the people who can’t necessarily have a voice, who are afraid to lose their jobs. Someone has to speak up for them. And I think figure out a way to do this within the confines of your company or organization.”“I think there is always something you can do, even speaking to someone and trying to support them. I think it’s, you know, again, it’s bad about making the voices of the underrepresented or those who are being bullied, et cetera, heard, because you maybe have more power and you have more privilege than others.”KG asks “Do you have any advice for those who are really new at any place, right? Whether it’s region, sector, role and any advice for them on how to integrate and thrive?”“Sometimes I make the analogy, Kaumudi, it’s just, I’m like I think of myself lying on a beach and letting the waves just watch over me. So what people are saying is something that I’m feeling, I’m listening to, but I don’t have to get defensive about it. And no one’s telling you to take every piece of feedback and do something with it. Some people who you will trust more, but then let it wash over you like you're a sponge and just take it and decide how that makes you a better manager and a better leader. It’s not taking something away from you. It is adding something to you. ”“Someone gave me advice one time saying, Kirsten, you will learn something from all the managers that you’ve ever had. You’ll learn something from the good managers, and you will also learn something from the worst managers, because you’ll learn how you never want to manage.”KG: Is there a quote or book that’s currently inspiring you? Anything you want to recommend to our listeners? KRISTEN: The newsletter I think you might know the poet Maya Angelou. And she says, “People will forget what you said, people will forget what you did, but they will never forget how you made them feel.”REFERENCES & LINKS: European Womens On BoardEWOB LINKEDINEWOB WEBSITEKRISTEN’s LinkedINLINKEDINThe Human Conversation Podcast ChannelsAPPLE PODCASTSSPOTIFYAMAZON MUSICLISTEN NOTESPODCAST INDEXPOCKET CASTS

The Human Conversation with Kristen Anderson

Guest: Nandu Nandkishore Nandu Nandkishore (Doreswamy Nandkishore; born 30 September 1958, known as "Nandu") is a business executive, venture capitalist and business school professor. He is the retired Global CEO of <a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nestl%C3%A9" rel="noopener noreferrer" target="_blank" style="color: black;">Nestlé</a> Nutrition, and retired executive vice president and head of Asia Oceania, Africa of Nestlé S.A, Switzerland. He presently serves as an independent director on the board of several companies, and is a professor of practice at Indian School of Business and a guest lecturer at London Business School. HIGHLIGHTS & TAKEAWAYS: <ul><li>33:50 - 33:59 “KG: The idea of realizing that we are custodians, it’s a temporary space, but we have to live with ourselves and our conscience.”</li><li>35:09 - 37:50 Fundamental paradigms in skilling ourselves from Prof Nandu: 1) Be prepared to be laid off. 2) Be prepared for a portfolio gig career. 3) Prepare yourself to learn to use these tools to reinvent what you can do so you can become more inherently valuable. 4) Have a disaster recovery plan in advance.</li><li>37:02 - 37:11 “Today, education and learning has to be a continuous daily activity. So you have to keep re-skilling yourself, keep figuring it out.”</li><li>38:24 - 38:47 The path to your next job will be circuitous. It will not be a straight line. You’ll probably have to try and fail at many things and milk your network and go out and create more value till you can find the next gig that gives you fulfillment that is financial and mental.</li><li>40:24 - 42:14 Promoting managers to positions of responsibility. Prof Nandu’s two things to consider: 1) APTITUDE - “Do you have the skill set?” 2) ATTITUDE - “Are you somebody who sees the glass as half full or half empty?” 3) THE HUNGER - “Are you hungry? If you’re hungry then you will work 24/7”</li><li>42:26 - 42:33 “KG: Could it be created extrinsically? Can you create inspirational, motivational workplaces in your observation?” (Question to Prof. Nandu)</li><li>43:10 - 43:24 “ If you are honest and true to your purpose in what you state, how you state, I think young people resonate with that. And then they will demonstrate because young people are hungry for purpose.”</li><li>43:29 - 43:36 “It’s not difficult to get young people to work hard. It’s not difficult, but you have to connect with them.”</li><li>49:53 - 51:47 Three R’s Philosophy REDUCE, REUSE, RECYCLE. Focusing on SCOPE 3. 1) Governments have to drive that. 2) Companies need to find new business models that are a sweet spot between purpose and profit, 3) Consumers have to change their behaviors.</li><li>51:52 - 52:59 France Van Houten of Royal Dutch Philip talks about products as service business models. They move you from being sellers of products to sellers of service. Where you own the data, you own the customer relationship and the more value you create for your customers, the more chance they’ll keep coming back to you.</li><li>53:45 - 54:00 “KG: I find that some things feel like wicked problems that are so huge, we can’t tackle them really, especially a lot of individuals that feel intimidated. I’m just a cog in a giant wheel, but the way you’re positioning it, it makes it accessible because they’re examples.</li><li>54:16 - 54:22 “KG: We step away from green washing or woke washing into actually aligning values with action.”</li><li>54:38 - 55:00 “KG asks: What’s an advice you give to leaders at any level as they’re navigating their leadership journeys?” “Prof. Nandu answers: Know your core values. Know your core values that you will not compromise. Talk about them, publicize them and hold yourself accountable to them.”</li><li>56:01 - 57:10 Prof. Nandu talks about “The Best Leaders Are Great Teachers” from Harvard Business Review.</li><li>57:17 - 57:32 KG talks about The Power of One from Harvard Business Review</li><li>57:56 - 57:58 Prof. Nandu’s final advice: “Whatever you do, think of what’s your LEGACY?”</li></ul> REFERENCES & LINKS: Dance of Disruption and Creation Epochal Change and the Opportunity for Enterprise <a href="https://www.routledge.com/Dance-of-Disruption-and-Creation-Epochal-Change-and-the-Opportunity-for-Enterprise/Nandkishore-Chandra/p/book/9781032184791" rel="noopener noreferrer" target="_blank" style="color: rgb(17, 85, 204);">ROUTLEDGE</a><a href="https://www.amazon.com/Dance-Disruption-Creation-Opportunity-Enterprise/dp/1032184795" rel="noopener noreferrer" target="_blank" style="color: rgb(17, 85, 204);">AMAZON</a><a href="https://www.barnesandnoble.com/w/dance-of-disruption-and-creation-nandu-nandkishore/1143039438" rel="noopener noreferrer" target="_blank" style="color: rgb(17, 85, 204);">BARNESANDNOBLE</a><a href="https://www.abbeys.com.au/book/dance-of-disruption-and-creation-epochal-change-and-the-opportunity-for-enterprise-9781032184791.do" rel="noopener noreferrer" target="_blank" style="color: rgb(17, 85, 204);">ABBEYS</a> 5 foundations of morality by JONATHAN HAIDT <a href="https://digitalcommons.law.seattleu.edu/cgi/viewcontent.cgi?article=1018&context=sulr#:~:text=Moral%20foundation%20theory%20argues%20that,morality%2C%20regardless%20of%20the%20culture." rel="noopener noreferrer" target="_blank" style="color: rgb(17, 85, 204);">DIGITALCOMMONS</a><a href="https://c4aa.org/2017/08/the-5-moral-foundations" rel="noopener noreferrer" target="_blank" style="color: rgb(17, 85, 204);">CENTER FOR ARTISTIC ACTIVISM</a> The Best Leaders Are Great Teachers <a href="https://hbr.org/2018/01/the-best-leaders-are-great-teachers" rel="noopener noreferrer" target="_blank" style="color: rgb(17, 85, 204);">HARVARD BUSINESS REVIEW</a> The Power of One<a href="https://hbr.org/2019/12/how-one-person-can-change-the-conscience-of-an-organization" rel="noopener noreferrer" target="_blank" style="color: rgb(17, 85, 204);">HARVARD BUSINESS REVIEW</a> France Van Houten of Royal Dutch Philip about their Business Model<a href="https://circleeconomy.medium.com/circular-business-models-the-proof-d09869946f55" rel="noopener noreferrer" target="_blank" style="color: rgb(17, 85, 204);">CIRCLE ECONOMY</a>

Guest: Nandu Nandkishore Nandu Nandkishore (Doreswamy Nandkishore; born 30 September 1958, known as "Nandu") is a business executive, venture capitalist and business school professor. He is the retired Global CEO of Nestlé Nutrition, and retired executive vice president and head of Asia Oceania, Africa of Nestlé S.A, Switzerland. He presently serves as an independent director on the board of several companies, and is a professor of practice at Indian School of Business and a guest lecturer at London Business School. HIGHLIGHTS & TAKEAWAYS:33:50 - 33:59 “KG: The idea of realizing that we are custodians, it’s a temporary space, but we have to live with ourselves and our conscience.”35:09 - 37:50 Fundamental paradigms in skilling ourselves from Prof Nandu: 1) Be prepared to be laid off. 2) Be prepared for a portfolio gig career. 3) Prepare yourself to learn to use these tools to reinvent what you can do so you can become more inherently valuable. 4) Have a disaster recovery plan in advance.37:02 - 37:11 “Today, education and learning has to be a continuous daily activity. So you have to keep re-skilling yourself, keep figuring it out.”38:24 - 38:47 The path to your next job will be circuitous. It will not be a straight line. You’ll probably have to try and fail at many things and milk your network and go out and create more value till you can find the next gig that gives you fulfillment that is financial and mental.40:24 - 42:14 Promoting managers to positions of responsibility. Prof Nandu’s two things to consider: 1) APTITUDE - “Do you have the skill set?” 2) ATTITUDE - “Are you somebody who sees the glass as half full or half empty?” 3) THE HUNGER - “Are you hungry? If you’re hungry then you will work 24/7”42:26 - 42:33 “KG: Could it be created extrinsically? Can you create inspirational, motivational workplaces in your observation?” (Question to Prof. Nandu)43:10 - 43:24 “ If you are honest and true to your purpose in what you state, how you state, I think young people resonate with that. And then they will demonstrate because young people are hungry for purpose.”43:29 - 43:36 “It’s not difficult to get young people to work hard. It’s not difficult, but you have to connect with them.”49:53 - 51:47 Three R’s Philosophy REDUCE, REUSE, RECYCLE. Focusing on SCOPE 3. 1) Governments have to drive that. 2) Companies need to find new business models that are a sweet spot between purpose and profit, 3) Consumers have to change their behaviors.51:52 - 52:59 France Van Houten of Royal Dutch Philip talks about products as service business models. They move you from being sellers of products to sellers of service. Where you own the data, you own the customer relationship and the more value you create for your customers, the more chance they’ll keep coming back to you.53:45 - 54:00 “KG: I find that some things feel like wicked problems that are so huge, we can’t tackle them really, especially a lot of individuals that feel intimidated. I’m just a cog in a giant wheel, but the way you’re positioning it, it makes it accessible because they’re examples.54:16 - 54:22 “KG: We step away from green washing or woke washing into actually aligning values with action.”54:38 - 55:00 “KG asks: What’s an advice you give to leaders at any level as they’re navigating their leadership journeys?” “Prof. Nandu answers: Know your core values. Know your core values that you will not compromise. Talk about them, publicize them and hold yourself accountable to them.”56:01 - 57:10 Prof. Nandu talks about “The Best Leaders Are Great Teachers” from Harvard Business Review.57:17 - 57:32 KG talks about The Power of One from Harvard Business Review57:56 - 57:58 Prof. Nandu’s final advice: “Whatever you do, think of what’s your LEGACY?” REFERENCES & LINKS: Dance of Disruption and Creation Epochal Change and the Opportunity for Enterprise ROUTLEDGEAMAZONBARNESANDNOBLEABBEYS 5 foundations of morality by JONATHAN HAIDT DIGITALCOMMONSCENTER FOR ARTISTIC ACTIVISM The Best Leaders Are Great Teachers HARVARD BUSINESS REVIEW The Power of OneHARVARD BUSINESS REVIEW France Van Houten of Royal Dutch Philip about their Business ModelCIRCLE ECONOMY

The Human Conversation with Prof Nandu Nandkishore

In this episode of The Human Conversation on Leadership and Ethics, host Kaumudi Goda delves into the complexities of ethical dilemmas faced by today's leaders. Join her as she engages in candid conversations with visionary executives and thought leaders from various fields such as business, government, advocacy, academia, and the arts. Throughout the podcast, Kaumudi explores the intersection of leadership, ethics, and organizational culture, uncovering the guiding principles that shape a leader's approach to ethical challenges. Listeners will gain valuable insights on how to navigate these dilemmas while inspiring teams, creating trust, and ultimately driving results. The podcast also dives into the importance of fostering ethical cultures within organizations, even in the face of competing priorities. Can ethics and profit coexist? This question and more will be discussed to shed light on how leaders can balance ethical considerations with the pursuit of success and growth. In each episode, the audience will be treated to real-world leadership case studies taken from the latest headlines. By examining these examples, Kaumudi and her guests provide practical insights and strategies for rising leaders to lead with purpose, principle, and authenticity. Join The Human Conversation on Leadership and Ethics

In this episode of The Human Conversation on Leadership and Ethics, host Kaumudi Goda delves into the complexities of ethical dilemmas faced by today's leaders. Join her as she engages in candid conversations with visionary executives and thought leaders from various fields such as business, government, advocacy, academia, and the arts.Throughout the podcast, Kaumudi explores the intersection of leadership, ethics, and organizational culture, uncovering the guiding principles that shape a leader's approach to ethical challenges. Listeners will gain valuable insights on how to navigate these dilemmas while inspiring teams, creating trust, and ultimately driving results.The podcast also dives into the importance of fostering ethical cultures within organizations, even in the face of competing priorities. Can ethics and profit coexist? This question and more will be discussed to shed light on how leaders can balance ethical considerations with the pursuit of success and growth.In each episode, the audience will be treated to real-world leadership case studies taken from the latest headlines. By examining these examples, Kaumudi and her guests provide practical insights and strategies for rising leaders to lead with purpose, principle, and authenticity.Join The Human Conversation on Leadership and Ethics

The Human Conversation on Leadership and Ethics: Insights for Leading with Purpose

How do today's leaders navigate complex ethical dilemmas while inspiring teams, creating trust, and driving results?Welcome to The Human Conversation Podcast on Leadership and Ethics, a podcast exploring the intersection of leadership, ethics, and organizational culture. Join host Kaumudi Goda as she engages visionary executives, thought leaders, and changemakers in candid conversations about integrity and purpose-driven leadership. You’ll hear perspectives from diverse fields, including business, government, advocacy, academia, and the arts.<ul><li>What guiding principles shape a leader’s approach to ethical challenges?</li><li>How can we foster ethical cultures amid competing priorities?</li><li>Can ethics and profit coexist?</li></ul> Tune in as we tackle these compelling questions and examine leadership case studies from the latest headlines.

How do today's leaders navigate complex ethical dilemmas while inspiring teams, creating trust, and driving results?Welcome to The Human Conversation Podcast on Leadership and Ethics, a podcast exploring the intersection of leadership, ethics, and organizational culture.Join host Kaumudi Goda as she engages visionary executives, thought leaders, and changemakers in candid conversations about integrity and purpose-driven leadership.You’ll hear perspectives from diverse fields, including business, government, advocacy, academia, and the arts.What guiding principles shape a leader’s approach to ethical challenges?How can we foster ethical cultures amid competing priorities?Can ethics and profit coexist?Tune in as we tackle these compelling questions and examine leadership case studies from the latest headlines.

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The Human Conversation Podcast on Leadership and Ethics

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