Get To Know Our Guest:Jenny GarrettJenny Garrett OBE began life in social housing in North West London, with an early commitment that where you start should never limit where you arrive. Two decades on, she is the founder and CEO of Jenny Garrett Global, the award-winning leadership consultancy she started in 2006 and still leads. Her belief is simple: potential is everywhere, but opportunity is not, and the work of leadership is to close that gap. It is a promise borne out by results, with 35%+ of participants promoted during her programmes and 98% recommending them.Jenny’s work spans three connected pillars: Inclusive, Entrepreneurial and AI-Ready Leadership. She is the author of the bestselling “Rocking Your Role” and “Equality vs Equity,” and, with her daughter Leah-Sunshine Garrett, co-author of AI for Equity (Emerald Publishing) and co-host of the podcast of the same name. She holds an OBE for services to entrepreneurship and women in business, and is a Companion of the Institute of Leadership and Management, its highest honour. HIGHLIGHTS & TAKEAWAYS:DR. KG: Jenny, you're a very well known and beloved figure, but for the sake of the audiences who are listening to you for the first time, can you share a little bit about yourself and your journey in life so far?JENNY: My journey has always been ultimately about empowering people. As a result, I've not just created my business providing leadership development, but also created other opportunities such as a social enterprise called Rocking Your Teens that has taken three and a half thousand young people through our doors over the last 13 years. And also something called the Diverse Executive Coach Directory, where we have about 60 coaches who we promote so that people can know that there are choices out there to have coaches all over the world.DR. KG: Jenny, you started in marketing, then it's coaching, then leadership training, leadership programs, writing, work with teenagers, assembling a large diverse group of coaches specifically to address the lack of diversity that might be available to people. So many different and impressive accomplishments, work that is impactful and is needed in the world. But what is a red thread that ties all of it together for you?JENNY: I think it's two things. I think it's about fairness. I really care about fairness. And I really want everyone to have the same opportunity for success. So I think fairness is part of it. But also empowerment. It's not just making sure everyone has the same opportunity, but making sure everyone knows inside that they might be different, but equally as good as everyone else. I really want people to understand that your difference is powerful. We don't have to be the same as everyone else. And actually that difference is your uniqueness is what makes you really special. And it's finding the spaces in which you can really flourish. I think there's a saying, if you ask a fish to ride a bicycle, it will always be unsuccessful, you know? And it's about finding those spaces where actually, you know, put the fish in water, it's amazing. And finding those spaces for us all to flourish.DR. KG: Fairness, equity, inclusion, these values that shine through so powerfully in what you said just now. What are those values rooted in? Where does that primal cry come from that you want to bring this to the world?JENNY: I come from a line of very strong women. My grandmother, absolutely, my grandmother came to the UK and started a life for all of us with my grandfather, but she was definitely the strong matriarch. And then my mum, who was the first in our family to get a degree actually, you know, in this line, she studied in her thirties to become a school teacher. And that very much empowered my brother and I and showed us what was possible. I feel like these women have had to fight hard for what they've been able to achieve and they've done it. But I guess I would love it to be easier for others. They've had to really recognize their own potential when other people didn't see it. And I want to be me and my company. I want to be that for others. I want to hold a mirror up to them and say, look, this is what I see and this is what is possible for you.JENNY: I think my grandmother, she had such a big heart. I think she absolutely showed me what's possible, even with very little. And then my mum sort of breaking boundaries and breaking barriers too. I would also say I have a daughter who's nearly 25. And there's definitely something about becoming a parent that made me want to step up. I suddenly saw myself as a role model. I knew that when she was looking at me she was seeing what was possible and that meant that I need to step out of my comfort zone so that she could too. So it's the women in my life that definitely create that line through that desire to make a difference.DR. KG: Accomplished people who fight hard and do amazing, miraculous things that challenge the notion of what is possible and what is appropriate for someone to achieve. I also find they usually have such a sense of power and vibrancy. There's often not at the same time also a space for softness. But in every interaction I've had and I've spoken with others, and they also attest to the same feeling I had. There is so much warmth and kindness in you that you shine on others. That's not a very common thing. It's quite rare. Where does the softness, the kindness, and the warmth find space in so much achievement and ambition and boundary pushing?JENNY: What I know is, I think I'm quite clear on how I want to engage in the world. I think I'm quite clear. If the world was all about being hard and mean and cutthroat, that's not the journey that I want to take. I think I want to wake up in the morning and feel pleased with how I'm getting engaged. I don't want to walk away from someone thinking I've left them, you know, damaged or hurt in some way. That's not how I want to go in the world.JENNY: I think there's probably some faith based values around how I want to engage. But there's also, you know, maybe as well, something about what I get from that. Because the more warmth I give out, the more warmth I give back, get back. And I think that is the case in life.JENNY: I guess when my daughter was very little, I would say she was a little bit glass half empty, so a little bit sees the not the positive side of things. I remember saying to her one day, let's go out and catch smiles. Let's smile at people and see if we can get smiles back. We came home and I was like, look how many smiles we caught on our journey. And I think it's a similar thing. The more you smile, the more smiles you get back. You'll get the odd person who looks at you strangely and maybe it's just been having a bad day. But generally you get them back. I think for me is about put the warmth out and you get the warmth back as long as you're being genuine.DR. KG: The values that you're talking about, equity, fairness, inclusion, kindness and warmth, rooted in faith and spirituality, these are fundamentally values that was hard won ground maybe a decade back. More importantly, with AI, it just seems things are moving so fast and they're so complicated and so multilayered with so much synchronicity and connectedness that it's all lost the ground we have gained. Knowing that you're working in this field actively now, how are you bringing in these values? The reason I started this podcast, Jenny, is because I wanted to speak with leaders like yourself who are showing that ethics and integrity is absolutely possible, especially because bringing those values in from the ground up, building that into the design instead of tacking it on top, especially in the AI world, is really important. How are you doing this work in the field of AI?JENNY: I've been hearing so many stories about AI. AI is gonna take everyone's job, the robots are gonna take over, the world is a terrible place. And I just thought, I don't like this feeling. I don't like this feeling that I'm hearing so much fear and sort of anger and upset around. Is there another story? Is there another perspective? And I spoke to my daughter about it and I said to her, could you do a bit of research for me? I said, could you do some research and just see if perhaps there are some positive stories some ways AI is creating fairness, some ways AI is helping people.JENNY: She came back with this long list and I said to her, you know what, let's interview them, let's turn this into a podcast. And we have been over the last year interviewing people globally to understand how they're using AI to make a difference. There's an organization called Ref-U-Aid that actually decided to create an AI algorithm based on the potential once you've received your certificate instead of your past track record. They have lent over three million pounds to people who were refugees and they have a 98.6 % payback rate. So that for me is such a positive use of AI using the algorithm to predict potential earnings and helping people who would be disadvantaged normally.JENNY: We've spoken to so many people, that's just one example of something that's being done. And we wanted to highlight these and really share, there's so much we can do to create a more equitable society using AI, but we need to use it intentionally. And we need to really understand AI to be able to do that. Where is the data coming from? Understanding who needs to be involved in those decisions. Not just throwing AI in and saying, it's going to make things more efficient and more productive, but really thinking about the best use cases for AI so that we can use it to make a difference. What Leah and I, my daughter and I want to do is really encourage people to think differently and think about how they can, you know, some of the biggest problems that we've ever had, how we could use AI to solve them.DR. KG: Can you share a time when you navigated a similarly tricky situation and what did you learn from it? Because I love when leaders share these stories so all of us can learn from that.JENNY: Actually someone I spoke to a little while back told me about this Good Samaritan story. It was some research that was done. And what they did was they, someone had to go to an interview. So they were going for an interview for a job. Someone was told, just get there when you can. Whenever you arrive, we'll be fine. Another was told, you are in a hurry, you've only got 10 minutes to get there. In both instances, they had someone collapse in front of them on the pavement. And the person who had all the time in the world stopped, they cared for them and made sure that they were all right. The person who was in a rush didn't stop. Now that doesn't mean they don't have strong values, that they don't care about people, but for them it was, I might not get the job if I don't get there on time. This is time sensitive. And so they let go of their morals and values for speed. And I think this is something that happens all the time. Exactly what you're talking about is that we're in a time sensitive, everyone's saying AI is moving so fast. We don't have much time. We need to be at the front of the queue. But I feel that it's actually a bit artificial because what are we rushing? If we don't know where we're going, what are we really rushing towards? And rushing to implement AI, a lot of organizations have spent a fortune and have not really got much to show for it or made some rash decisions. For me, it's all about slowing down. And I guess actually what's often happened for us when we have had to make tough decisions is that it's worked out fine for us because we've slowed down our thinking.JENNY: I'll give an example of a potential client who came to us. They said they wanted some development, particularly for staff from ethnically diverse backgrounds to help them reach their potential in their organization. For us, we provide long-term programs, eight-month programs. We include their line managers, we include sponsors, quite extensive programs that create organizational change. They're not just ticking a box. And they said to us, well, all we want is a few workshops.JENNY: What's going to happen for us is we're going to do some work with you in the way that you want and it won't make any difference. It won't aid our reputation and it won't help us feel good about ourselves because we want to know we've made an impact. I think the work we do is very intrinsically related to who we are and so actually if we don't feel that we've done our best to do a good job then we can't feel proud. And they were really shocked that we were willing to walk away from the work. You know, it was a significant amount of money, but we said we were and we were willing to not have it. But ultimately they did come back to us and said, actually, we'll work with you. We always have those questions, do our values align with our clients? And if they don't, we're not going to chase the money because for us, it's about the impact. But it's not easy decisions because we are a business and we do need to make money and we do need to pay salaries, but we're really clear on what we're willing to walk away from. I think what that means is when clients do work with us, we're very much aligned. And so it delivers a better impact. And I think for the participants, they know that their organization is really committed, not just ticking a box as well.DR. KG: To the leaders out there who are experiencing that time crunch, who are experiencing this tremendous pressure to just show results endlessly, to have the first mover advantage that you indicated before. What is your advice to them, to the professionals and leaders out there on how to build the ethical, inspiring, inclusive cultures in the workplace, like the one you're creating, not only in your organization, but in the organizations that you're advising and consulting with?JENNY: People in many places are saying inclusion and EDI are dirty words. There are so many jobs that have been cut with those in the job title. And there really has been a push to divert our eyes, I would say, away from this topic. However, when I was researching for my last book, not the one I've just written, I read the work of Derek Bell and he said that, this is always shape shifting. It's a shape shifting nature. This was always gonna happen. The fact that over time, racism, sexism, any isms, they have, they've looked like one thing and then they've looked like something else and then they've looked like something else. And I think that we are just moving into another phase of understanding what this looks like.JENNY: If you see it as inevitable that it will continue to shape shift, I think that helps you not be so disheartened. This will always, was always coming and will always be coming. It just keeps moving. And as a result, we have to move and adapt with it.JENNY: One of the things I like to think about is that the way I like to talk about it is if we can solve small things for groups of people who are in some way disadvantaged, we solve it for everyone. And I think this is what's been missing that people don't understand.JENNY: And so what I encourage you to do is find the small things that you might be tweaking for a particular group of people and help everyone see how they benefit. And I think this is the space that we are in. I think take heart, do small things because they do have a powerful knock on effect, but also talk about how they impact not just the group of people that you're helping, but everyone. And if you find one of those things in the next year, you've done amazing work. You know, don't have to do everything. Small things can create amazing ripples.DR. KG: Is there a quote, book, or advice that had a profound impact on you and your way of thinking and being that you'd like to share?JENNY: I came across this saying, no one is you and that is your power. I think everyone should recognise that just that is your power, you that you yourself just being here, the way you, you know, the way you communicate your knowledge, your experience, it might not be unique, but it is your power. And for me, that is something we all need to hold and recognize that we have power. Because when you know that you're powerful, you know, you can make a difference.DR. KG: As a coach yourself and someone who's working actively to make AI equitable, fair and safe everyone too, do you have a hot take on coaching and AI?JENNY: What I did was I actually signed up for an AI coaching tool, because I thought, let me just see what it has to offer. The first week, so every day you had to journal into it. And then at the end of the week, it kind of gives you a summary and gives you some feedback. And basically the first week it just said, you're amazing, Jenny, you're juggling so much, you're making all the right decisions and how amazing are you? And I thought, this is nice. The second week, not in the same words, but telling me how fabulous I was. The third week, again, telling me how amazing I was. And then I realized this is just set up to tell me everything that I want to hear. What a coach does is a coach challenges you. A coach will not call you out in a negative way, but say, are you sure? Is this the truth of the situation? If you were looking at this from another perspective, how could this look? A coach gives you that extra piece that is so necessary to be a rounded person. And also the coach has much more context.JENNY: What I can say is the tools at this point are telling you what you want to hear. That's never going to be the right thing. We sometimes need to hear what we don't like. We need to hear more. And also, don't understand your full context. So can't really give you that advice. So I think there's a lot of danger around that. There are some people trying to create better tools. And there might be some better tools out there, but ultimately it's never going to be a replacement for a real therapist, a real counselor, or a real friend. And I do see more and more people just wanting face-to-face in-person events because of that. Because we can trust what we see. If you meet me in an environment, you really know it's me.JENNY: AI is a great tool, but remember it's ones and zeros. That is what AI is. It's not a person, it's emulating and bringing together patterns of conversation through an algorithm. It's not a human being. The real people to talk to are humans, flawed, imperfect humans who don't always give you the best advice, but it's real.﻿REFERENCES & LINKS:JENNY’s Social Media Platforms/ResourcesWEBSITEJENNY GARRETT OBEYOUTUBEJENNY’s Recommended BooksRocking Your RoleEquality Vs EquityThe Human Conversation Podcast ChannelsAPPLE PODCASTSSPOTIFY

The Human Conversation Podcast on Leadership and Ethics

Human Conversation with Jenny Garrett

<h3>Get To Know Our Guest:</h3><h2>Dr. Vance Cooper</h2> Dr. Vance Cooper is a leadership development consultant and mental health advocate with 10 years of experience in acute inpatient mental health. With a Ph.D. in Corporate Leadership, he helps people prioritize mental and emotional well-being by equipping them with tools to unlock unrealized leadership potential, without compromising authenticity. His workshops and keynotes blend compassion with clarity, challenging audiences to lead themselves with the same care they extend to others. <h3>HIGHLIGHTS & TAKEAWAYS:</h3> <ul><li>DR. KG: From your work in the healthcare space, specifically around mental well-being and mental health and how that builds so beautifully into your current work, which is helping individuals find their purpose, find their values, and specifically helping younger people do this, whether it's in terms of their career preparation and planning or simply just finding their place in the world: Is there a red thread that ties all of it together for you? What's the driving force behind all that you do?</li><li>DR. VANCE: My mission is ultimately to help extraordinary people unlock unrealized leadership potential without compromising authenticity. So from my view, everybody is an extraordinary being. We all have unique talents, we all have a purpose, and we all have a reason that we put on this earth, and we all have a special gift. And so my goal is always to help people recognize their unique talents and gifts and how they are able to walk in their leadership gift.</li><li>DR. VANCE: My goal is to help everyone recognize that they are a leader in their unique space and in their unique talent and the younger I can breathe or speak that message into a person, I think the better off they will be in the long run.</li><li>DR. KG: When did a young Dr. Vance Cooper working in the healthcare say, hey, you know what? That specifically is what my calling is. I'm gonna get working on that.</li><li>DR. VANCE: I was looking to study leadership, but I don't know if I really necessarily looked at myself as a leader, at least from the perspective that I have currently. And so while I was studying the theories, I simultaneously was going through this self-discovery process where I really was, I really had to do a deep self-assessment and just kind of recognizing my own unique gifts and my own unique talents and just recognizing that studying leadership doesn't make necessarily make you a leader.</li><li>DR. VANCE: I've always had a connection where I wanted to give back. I want to give back to people who are coming after me and being able to help pave the way and help them recognize that the things that I'm accomplishing are very real for them as well.</li><li>DR. VANCE: I want young people especially to recognize that they should never stop dreaming and that there's all different types of paths that they can take whether they decide to go to trade school, whether they decide to go to higher education, whether they just decide to go directly into the workforce, whether they decide to start working and then maybe later on in life as they get older, they decide that they want to go back to school. There's multiple different paths that people can take to be able to reach their goal. But the important thing is for you to never stop dreaming and to really focus on what you want.</li><li>DR. VANCE: One of the things that I sincerely want to do is help young people recognize that they should be in order for them to reach their maximum fulfillment and for them to reach their, like their maximum potential, they should be going after what they want.</li><li>DR. KG: From my own practice, it is sometimes the intergenerational trauma, it is the cultural heritage, it is the historical context. There's so many reasons why at the earliest, I believe it's as young as eight or even six when children already begin to absorb the flag posts, the milestones that, “hey, this is what is possible, this is what is not. Here's what's expected of you.” And that subliminal messaging really goes deeply towards shaping our expectations of ourselves, of life, of the world, the lens with which we see the world and experience it.</li><li>DR. KG: Can you tell me a little bit from the perspective of your work, what the terms ethics and integrity mean to you?</li><li>DR. VANCE: When I think about ethics and integrity, I think about character. I think about trust. For me, I think that character is one of the most important aspects of leadership because if people aren't able to trust you, it's going to be very hard for people to follow you.</li><li>DR. VANCE: Good character is definitely a part of being acting in an ethical manner with integrity. One of the things about it is that when you are somebody who has people following you, once it's been determined that the people cannot trust you, trust is something that, it's almost like it's your currency. Once people feel like you've misled them or you've given them a reason to break that trust, it's very hard to get that trust or to earn that trust back from the people.</li><li>DR. KG: When you think about authenticity, trust, how do you balance that tension when you're working with young people? Are you able to also share with them real, pragmatic, practical tips on how to navigate that tension?</li><li>DR. VANCE: I really go out of my way to try to make sure that I don't feel like I'm lecturing people. I want people to be involved, like actively involved in the discussion that we're having. If I am working with some young people, one of the things that I'm doing in the middle of the presentation is constantly stopping, asking questions asking them for to participate and if somebody's shy, calling on somebody to kind of force them to participate, but it's all a part of me trying to make sure that I'm connecting with the students and meeting them where they are. And then also just asking them for feedback as well because as I'm a human, so I don't always get it right.</li><li>DR. KG: When you work with organizations, in your experience, the high schools and organizations you work with- What is their perspective? Are they showing up, in your assessment, with commitment towards these programs? Are you seeing any shifts perhaps related to commitment of investment and time and resources towards these programs that are so important? Or maybe also in terms of how they're dealing with AI.</li><li>DR. VANCE: I love working with students. I do plenty of things for free and not necessarily doing this to earn money. But the reality is some of these types of programs, depending on what you want to do with the students, especially if you want to take them places and be able to reward them for things there is a cost behind being able to do that.</li><li>DR. VANCE: I was a part of a program called “My Brother's Keeper Cares”. And that's a summer program where they are working with the students, teaching them how to play chess and teaching them how to play golf. But also it's half recreational activity and then half transformation opportunities. They would have various guests come in talking to the students about self-discovery and goal setting and entrepreneurship and investing and all these different various topics.</li><li>DR. VANCE: It's very important that we try to make sure that mentorship and role models just make sure there's just equitable opportunity for all students, especially students that are of color or students that are economically disadvantaged, making sure that they have an opportunity to be able to step into who they are as people and what they're called to do as well.</li><li>DR. KG: Everybody's life is difficult. Challenges are normal. There is no one decision that you're all set on for the rest of your life. Mistakes are allowed and you can bounce forward, fail forward. All of this gets lost in the context unless we have voices like yourselves who are passionate, who are creative, who have ideas and you have reasons why you believe something will work.</li><li>DR. KG: Is there a personal experience you'd like to share where you had to navigate a difficult ethical dilemma where it was a trade-off between your values and important priorities or a career success? Do you have an experience where you overcame such a challenge and how did that experience shape your progress going forward, how to change how you do things?</li><li>DR. VANCE: Had a person that was operating in unethical manner who was more concerned about getting a commission than service and the client. And so that was a real wake up call for me in terms of just making sure that people, you wanna make sure that like individuals are really getting all the correct information upfront in advance. And you wanna help people be able to make informed decisions and that was really one of those lessons in life.</li><li>DR. VANCE: Money will come if you're working in purpose, when you are, when you're operating in a way where you're focused on personal gain and you're operating in bad ethics, it almost is always gonna come back to bite you. And so I'm glad that that was definitely one of the biggest ethical lessons because I was really looking forward to being able to make some money that season. But once I found out how unethical the practices were, I really had to step away and just not engage in what he was advising us to do, which, and I'm grateful for that experience.</li><li>DR. VANCE: Sometimes you might go into a situation where you're early in your career, you're young, you're a little naive and not recognizing that somebody is operating in an unethical manner. You might not recognize it all like right away, but it's very important that if you didn't recognize it, once you do recognize it, you have a decision to make about how you're going to operate, whether you're going to just kind of stay true to your values and not participating in it, or whether you're going to compromise your values and participate. just people just have to recognize that once you make a decision to compromise your values, it really could come back to bite you. And sometimes it doesn't always come back to bite you right away.</li><li>DR. KG: I read a book that really shifted my thinking in many ways and helped me understand a lot about this. It's Defy by Dr. Sunita Sa. She writes in the book: why is it that so many good people find themselves in situations where they have an internal radar screeching at them “This is not right. This is not right” and then they feel frozen and paralyzed in those situations.</li><li>DR. VANCE: Some cases negligence is not an excuse, but in other cases, when you genuinely were not aware, once you become aware, you have a decision to make. That's just the reality. There's no getting around it. You have a decision to make on if you're going to uphold your values or if you're going to compromise on them.</li><li>DR. KG: In this very uncertain, rapidly changing world, what are your observations on real world ethical dilemmas most relevant to young people today? And what's your advice for professionals or about to be professionals in grappling with these situations?</li><li>DR. VANCE: One of the biggest issues that we're facing right now with young people is the use of tools like chatGPT to do work for them rather than using it as a tool. Students do need to recognize, they need to recognize AI as a tool instead of a crutch.</li><li>DR. VANCE: When you're in higher education, the teachers are trying to challenge your thinking and open up your mind to new perspectives and new concepts. And when you're undermining, you're ultimately undermining, you're trying to undermine a professor, but ultimately you're undermining yourself when you're using these AI tools to do the work for you rather than you doing the work.</li><li>DR. KG: Young people should be tech savvy, but also put in the necessary work so they can learn the proper way.</li><li>DR. VANCE: It's just important that we the technology that is available. We making sure that we're using it in an ethical manner and then just also making sure that we're using it in a purposeful way as well.</li><li>DR. KG: What is your advice for senior mid-level professionals and leaders inside organizations and organizations themselves on how to build ethical, inspiring, inclusive workplaces to receive this next generation of workforce?</li><li>DR. VANCE: The most important thing is to establish an environment of self accountability. Because I think that a lot of people, we have people that are responsible for us, but I think that there's a lack of people that take responsibility for themselves.</li><li>DR. VANCE: Self accountability, I definitely would say is the number one thing that you wanna have implemented into the environment of the professional space.</li><li>DR. KG: is there a quote, a book, or advice that had profound impact on your way of thinking and being that you'd like to share? I'm sure if your young mentees would ask, they will quote you, but who would you quote?</li><li>DR. VANCE: A quote from the late great Miles Monroe. “Your job is what you were paid to do, but your work is what you were born to do.” Recognizing that your job is your job and your work. Those are two separate things. And like I said, your job is what you were paid to do. Your work is what you were born to do. So I just want people, it's important for people to recognize that they should be focused on their work and not always necessarily focus on their job.</li></ul> <h3>REFERENCES & LINKS:</h3> DR. VANCE’s Social Media Platforms/Resources<a href="https://vancecooper.com/" rel="noopener noreferrer" target="_blank" style="color: rgb(17, 85, 204); background-color: initial;">WEBSITE</a><a href="https://www.linkedin.com/in/rvcjr/" rel="noopener noreferrer" target="_blank" style="color: rgb(17, 85, 204); background-color: initial;">LINKEDIN</a><a href="https://www.instagram.com/v_accesspurpose/" rel="noopener noreferrer" target="_blank" style="color: rgb(17, 85, 204); background-color: initial;">INSTAGRAM</a> The Human Conversation Podcast Channels<a href="https://podcasts.apple.com/us/podcast/the-human-conversation-podcast-on-leadership-and-ethics/id1736302989" rel="noopener noreferrer" target="_blank" style="color: rgb(17, 85, 204); background-color: initial;">APPLE PODCASTS</a><a href="https://open.spotify.com/show/2DLMqNqgKZTKyB8zcw5MF0?si=a5c9d1e15b6e4ac3" rel="noopener noreferrer" target="_blank" style="color: rgb(17, 85, 204); background-color: initial;">SPOTIFY</a>

Get To Know Our Guest:Dr. Vance CooperDr. Vance Cooper is a leadership development consultant and mental health advocate with 10 years of experience in acute inpatient mental health. With a Ph.D. in Corporate Leadership, he helps people prioritize mental and emotional well-being by equipping them with tools to unlock unrealized leadership potential, without compromising authenticity. His workshops and keynotes blend compassion with clarity, challenging audiences to lead themselves with the same care they extend to others. HIGHLIGHTS & TAKEAWAYS:DR. KG: From your work in the healthcare space, specifically around mental well-being and mental health and how that builds so beautifully into your current work, which is helping individuals find their purpose, find their values, and specifically helping younger people do this, whether it's in terms of their career preparation and planning or simply just finding their place in the world: Is there a red thread that ties all of it together for you? What's the driving force behind all that you do?DR. VANCE: My mission is ultimately to help extraordinary people unlock unrealized leadership potential without compromising authenticity. So from my view, everybody is an extraordinary being. We all have unique talents, we all have a purpose, and we all have a reason that we put on this earth, and we all have a special gift. And so my goal is always to help people recognize their unique talents and gifts and how they are able to walk in their leadership gift.DR. VANCE: My goal is to help everyone recognize that they are a leader in their unique space and in their unique talent and the younger I can breathe or speak that message into a person, I think the better off they will be in the long run.DR. KG: When did a young Dr. Vance Cooper working in the healthcare say, hey, you know what? That specifically is what my calling is. I'm gonna get working on that.DR. VANCE: I was looking to study leadership, but I don't know if I really necessarily looked at myself as a leader, at least from the perspective that I have currently. And so while I was studying the theories, I simultaneously was going through this self-discovery process where I really was, I really had to do a deep self-assessment and just kind of recognizing my own unique gifts and my own unique talents and just recognizing that studying leadership doesn't make necessarily make you a leader.DR. VANCE: I've always had a connection where I wanted to give back. I want to give back to people who are coming after me and being able to help pave the way and help them recognize that the things that I'm accomplishing are very real for them as well.DR. VANCE: I want young people especially to recognize that they should never stop dreaming and that there's all different types of paths that they can take whether they decide to go to trade school, whether they decide to go to higher education, whether they just decide to go directly into the workforce, whether they decide to start working and then maybe later on in life as they get older, they decide that they want to go back to school. There's multiple different paths that people can take to be able to reach their goal. But the important thing is for you to never stop dreaming and to really focus on what you want.DR. VANCE: One of the things that I sincerely want to do is help young people recognize that they should be in order for them to reach their maximum fulfillment and for them to reach their, like their maximum potential, they should be going after what they want.DR. KG: From my own practice, it is sometimes the intergenerational trauma, it is the cultural heritage, it is the historical context. There's so many reasons why at the earliest, I believe it's as young as eight or even six when children already begin to absorb the flag posts, the milestones that, “hey, this is what is possible, this is what is not. Here's what's expected of you.” And that subliminal messaging really goes deeply towards shaping our expectations of ourselves, of life, of the world, the lens with which we see the world and experience it.DR. KG: Can you tell me a little bit from the perspective of your work, what the terms ethics and integrity mean to you?DR. VANCE: When I think about ethics and integrity, I think about character. I think about trust. For me, I think that character is one of the most important aspects of leadership because if people aren't able to trust you, it's going to be very hard for people to follow you.DR. VANCE: Good character is definitely a part of being acting in an ethical manner with integrity. One of the things about it is that when you are somebody who has people following you, once it's been determined that the people cannot trust you, trust is something that, it's almost like it's your currency. Once people feel like you've misled them or you've given them a reason to break that trust, it's very hard to get that trust or to earn that trust back from the people.DR. KG: When you think about authenticity, trust, how do you balance that tension when you're working with young people? Are you able to also share with them real, pragmatic, practical tips on how to navigate that tension?DR. VANCE: I really go out of my way to try to make sure that I don't feel like I'm lecturing people. I want people to be involved, like actively involved in the discussion that we're having. If I am working with some young people, one of the things that I'm doing in the middle of the presentation is constantly stopping, asking questions asking them for to participate and if somebody's shy, calling on somebody to kind of force them to participate, but it's all a part of me trying to make sure that I'm connecting with the students and meeting them where they are. And then also just asking them for feedback as well because as I'm a human, so I don't always get it right.DR. KG: When you work with organizations, in your experience, the high schools and organizations you work with- What is their perspective? Are they showing up, in your assessment, with commitment towards these programs? Are you seeing any shifts perhaps related to commitment of investment and time and resources towards these programs that are so important? Or maybe also in terms of how they're dealing with AI.DR. VANCE: I love working with students. I do plenty of things for free and not necessarily doing this to earn money. But the reality is some of these types of programs, depending on what you want to do with the students, especially if you want to take them places and be able to reward them for things there is a cost behind being able to do that.DR. VANCE: I was a part of a program called “My Brother's Keeper Cares”. And that's a summer program where they are working with the students, teaching them how to play chess and teaching them how to play golf. But also it's half recreational activity and then half transformation opportunities. They would have various guests come in talking to the students about self-discovery and goal setting and entrepreneurship and investing and all these different various topics.DR. VANCE: It's very important that we try to make sure that mentorship and role models just make sure there's just equitable opportunity for all students, especially students that are of color or students that are economically disadvantaged, making sure that they have an opportunity to be able to step into who they are as people and what they're called to do as well.DR. KG: Everybody's life is difficult. Challenges are normal. There is no one decision that you're all set on for the rest of your life. Mistakes are allowed and you can bounce forward, fail forward. All of this gets lost in the context unless we have voices like yourselves who are passionate, who are creative, who have ideas and you have reasons why you believe something will work.DR. KG: Is there a personal experience you'd like to share where you had to navigate a difficult ethical dilemma where it was a trade-off between your values and important priorities or a career success? Do you have an experience where you overcame such a challenge and how did that experience shape your progress going forward, how to change how you do things?DR. VANCE: Had a person that was operating in unethical manner who was more concerned about getting a commission than service and the client. And so that was a real wake up call for me in terms of just making sure that people, you wanna make sure that like individuals are really getting all the correct information upfront in advance. And you wanna help people be able to make informed decisions and that was really one of those lessons in life.DR. VANCE: Money will come if you're working in purpose, when you are, when you're operating in a way where you're focused on personal gain and you're operating in bad ethics, it almost is always gonna come back to bite you. And so I'm glad that that was definitely one of the biggest ethical lessons because I was really looking forward to being able to make some money that season. But once I found out how unethical the practices were, I really had to step away and just not engage in what he was advising us to do, which, and I'm grateful for that experience.DR. VANCE: Sometimes you might go into a situation where you're early in your career, you're young, you're a little naive and not recognizing that somebody is operating in an unethical manner. You might not recognize it all like right away, but it's very important that if you didn't recognize it, once you do recognize it, you have a decision to make about how you're going to operate, whether you're going to just kind of stay true to your values and not participating in it, or whether you're going to compromise your values and participate. just people just have to recognize that once you make a decision to compromise your values, it really could come back to bite you. And sometimes it doesn't always come back to bite you right away.DR. KG: I read a book that really shifted my thinking in many ways and helped me understand a lot about this. It's Defy by Dr. Sunita Sa. She writes in the book: why is it that so many good people find themselves in situations where they have an internal radar screeching at them “This is not right. This is not right” and then they feel frozen and paralyzed in those situations.DR. VANCE: Some cases negligence is not an excuse, but in other cases, when you genuinely were not aware, once you become aware, you have a decision to make. That's just the reality. There's no getting around it. You have a decision to make on if you're going to uphold your values or if you're going to compromise on them.DR. KG: In this very uncertain, rapidly changing world, what are your observations on real world ethical dilemmas most relevant to young people today? And what's your advice for professionals or about to be professionals in grappling with these situations?DR. VANCE: One of the biggest issues that we're facing right now with young people is the use of tools like chatGPT to do work for them rather than using it as a tool. Students do need to recognize, they need to recognize AI as a tool instead of a crutch.DR. VANCE: When you're in higher education, the teachers are trying to challenge your thinking and open up your mind to new perspectives and new concepts. And when you're undermining, you're ultimately undermining, you're trying to undermine a professor, but ultimately you're undermining yourself when you're using these AI tools to do the work for you rather than you doing the work.DR. KG: Young people should be tech savvy, but also put in the necessary work so they can learn the proper way.DR. VANCE: It's just important that we the technology that is available. We making sure that we're using it in an ethical manner and then just also making sure that we're using it in a purposeful way as well.DR. KG: What is your advice for senior mid-level professionals and leaders inside organizations and organizations themselves on how to build ethical, inspiring, inclusive workplaces to receive this next generation of workforce?DR. VANCE: The most important thing is to establish an environment of self accountability. Because I think that a lot of people, we have people that are responsible for us, but I think that there's a lack of people that take responsibility for themselves.DR. VANCE: Self accountability, I definitely would say is the number one thing that you wanna have implemented into the environment of the professional space.DR. KG: is there a quote, a book, or advice that had profound impact on your way of thinking and being that you'd like to share? I'm sure if your young mentees would ask, they will quote you, but who would you quote?DR. VANCE: A quote from the late great Miles Monroe. “Your job is what you were paid to do, but your work is what you were born to do.” Recognizing that your job is your job and your work. Those are two separate things. And like I said, your job is what you were paid to do. Your work is what you were born to do. So I just want people, it's important for people to recognize that they should be focused on their work and not always necessarily focus on their job. REFERENCES & LINKS:DR. VANCE’s Social Media Platforms/ResourcesWEBSITELINKEDININSTAGRAMThe Human Conversation Podcast ChannelsAPPLE PODCASTSSPOTIFY

Human Conversation with Dr. Vance Cooper

Human Conversation with Bob Sheard

<h3>Get To Know Our Guest:</h3><h2>Martin Koek</h2> Martin Koek studied law at the university of Leiden. In 1991 he obtained his master’s degree in tax law. In the same year he started his career as tax advisor with Arthur Andersen. Within Arthur Andersen and later Deloitte he climbed the ranks and in 2002 he became responsible for the corporate income tax compliance practices in the Netherlands. In 2013 Martin relocated to Deloitte in Hyderabad (India) where he managed the compliance practices for Deloitte Netherlands and Deloitte United Kingdom. In 2017 he returned to Deloitte in The Netherlands taking up his role in the Netherlands compliance practice.After his career as tax advisor in 2022, Martin decided to take a break from professional life and focus more on his private life and his hobbies reading and travelling. In 2025 he started his coaching education that he finished in 2026. Currently he is starting up his coaching practice, mainly focusing on career coaching. <h3>HIGHLIGHTS & TAKEAWAYS:</h3><ul><li>KG: You've had such an incredible international career as a corporate leader, advisor, mentor, just to name a few. Is there a red thread that ties all of this together for you? I wanted to know what's the driving force behind all that you do?</li><li>MARTIN: One thing is that I like to solve puzzles and find my way or other people's way out of difficult situations. And I like to help people and perhaps not in the altruistic way, but at least in a professional way.</li><li>MARTIN: In the beginning of my career, it was about helping clients manage their tax burden. Later on, it became also mentoring of younger colleagues. It became the development of the organization as a whole. And then it's rather difficult to find the right threat but it always focused around helping people solving problems or helping organizations solving problems.</li><li>KG: Knowing that you have a compliance ethics taxation background yourself, what are the terms ethics and integrity mean to you?</li><li>MARTIN: I think ethics and integrity are the greatest assets that a leader can have. And the difficulty is how to apply those things in the real everyday life of a leader.</li><li>MARTIN: As a starting leader, where I realized at one time that I was focusing way too much on reliability and responsibility. And I realized that in my vacation, where I received lots of telephone calls from team members who were trying to solve problems but didn't think that they have the authority themselves to solve the problem. So they always came back to me. I sat down with a consultant to make a SWOT analysis and from that SWOT analysis an action plan had to follow. Okay this is the direction that we are taking and the necessary steps that we had to take the practical steps to make that change. We came up with the solution that we should involve the entire team.</li><li>MARTIN: The action plan that the team made was the same as the plan I made with the consultant. But the action steps that we had to take were much more complete than I had made together with the consultant. So what I learned from that exercise is that by being transparent and honest about the future of the team. The team was actually thinking about solutions and action steps to take together with me. But it made the team less reliable from me. And it also created a much more open atmosphere where everybody could share their ideas, could share their doubts, their concerns. And we solved everything together.</li><li>KG: What was it do you think that helped the team make that change when you recommended it?</li><li>MARTIN: Involving the team and knowing that their views and their recommendations are also appreciated and that I by myself also do not know anything creates an atmosphere that we really we're really going together to make the change to make everything happen.</li><li>KG: In Asia, where I know some of the talent you worked with was, it is very hierarchical. So did you face any resistance or hurdles from others in the environment? who are used to hierarchy and couldn't understand why you're going against the grain and trying to do something different.</li><li>MARTIN: I learned quite soon that although the society and also lot of corporations in Asia are hierarchical, hierarchy is very important in those countries and those organizations, people hate it. When I came in and started asking input from the team and involving them in the day to day basis, other than just doing their regular job, but also give them an insight in why we were doing things and that we also needed to make changes. They were all quite happy to give me their input.</li><li>MARTIN: I've learned that integrity from a leader leads also to integrity from the team. and the same for ethics. If you are an ethical leader, you also get ethical team members. And there are always exceptions, but the broader line is that it is a vice versa thing. Ethical leaders lead to ethical teams. Integrity leads to integrity.</li><li>KG: Is there a need that you feel comfortable sharing so we can learn from what lessons you took away from it? I'm assuming you're referring to mistakes that help you clarify and fine tune what your ethics are, what your values are.</li><li>MARTIN: In the evaluation process, there's nothing easier than doing an evaluation conversation with a good performer. You always have a nice open atmosphere. But then you have the conversation with the bad performer. And since most leaders are nice people, or at least want to be perceived as a nice person, the evaluation conversations with bad performers are often of a very bad quality.</li><li>MARTIN: The evaluator wants to soften the blow and the evaluator is certainly not telling the bad performer that the performance is really bad. We try to hide it a little bit and say this is not the end of the world. If you do this and this you can perform better. But what we are actually doing is hiding the message, leave the bad performer hanging, leaving the bad performer with a feeling of uncertainty. So along the way, I've learned that it is much better to not soften the blow and just tell at the beginning of the conversation, your performance is not up to standards.</li><li>MARTIN: By listening, you can also determine, okay, there is room for growth. And when you listen to the needs of the other person and really help the person taking the next step, the conversation is suddenly not closed and tense anymore, but it's open and you're trying to build on something. And I think that's also a part of ethics. It's morally wrong to soften the blow. It's ethically right to start with the bad message, but also being open to the input of the person in front.</li><li>KG: What are some of the real world ethical problems that are most relevant to business leaders today? What are your observations around that?</li><li>MARTIN: I want to focus on one thing. And it has again to do with the people aspect of business. We started measuring a lot of things like output. We started measuring the number of hours spent on the project compared with the projected number. We started modelling a lot, standardising a lot. And although I am the first to recognize that modelling and that standardization and measuring output brought us a lot, it also harms us. And I feel that we focus too much on the standardized models. And we focus too much on output and we focus too little on the uniqueness that every employee brings to the organization.</li><li>KG: How can we begin to persuade organizations? What's the business case for it?</li><li>MARTIN: If we listen more to each other about what works on the models and what doesn't work on the models, we eventually get to a situation that the models are not set in stone anymore. Because quite often we design something and that works, but circumstances change. So if circumstances change, you should also redesign the model and then people feel much more at home.</li><li>KG: There is a Martin Luther King quote that I recently came across, Martin, that I think is appropriate. He advises that “Faith is about taking the first step, even if the staircase is not clear to you yet.”</li><li>MARTIN: In my time in Asia, we also designed. We implemented it. We think it's a success. But every three months, the project team is coming together and gets input from the team on is it still working or do we need to tweak so that this is not all set in stone. And in that way it becomes much more durable to keep working in that way because everybody feels hurt and when change is needed we make the change.</li><li>KG: What is your advice to professionals on how to build these cultures of integrity in their teams and organizations as they grapple with competing priorities?</li><li>MARTIN: First, as a team you have to do is make sure that everybody is included. And that means that you must have open communication lines where people really listen and understand each other's expectations and needs and wishes. And if there is a clear understanding of expectations and wishes, especially on things that work very well but also on things that do not work, then there is an understanding of what needs to change and what can stay the same. And it's also openness leads to openness.</li><li>MARTIN: Secondly, the team needs to make sure that everybody has a clear understanding of their roles and responsibilities and actually pick up their roles and responsibilities. And that it is clear that everybody knows what they are doing and also monitor that everybody is picking up their roles and responsibilities. Because they understand a disbalance will occur when someone is not picking up their respective roles and responsibilities.</li><li>MARTIN: Lastly, there should be a balance in the give and take. So by saying that, mean that employees give their time and capabilities to the employer and they want to have something in return, which is basically a salary and some vacation date. Employers may want from time to time, have an increase in productivity because it's a busy season. And as long as there is some reward for the employees, it's okay.</li><li>MARTIN: If everybody is included, everybody feels included, if everybody takes up their roles and responsibilities, and when there is a balance, a long-term balance in the give and take. Those are excellent ingredients to build team culture that is both ethical as well as that it has integrity.</li><li>KG: Do you have any advice for professionals, either mid-career or senior, who are now fearing what is the future of their career paths with AI coming in so extensively? Or advice for people who are going to graduate and are looking to joining the workforce soon on how to navigate this age of AI?</li><li>MARTIN: Alternatives will come up and I don't know yet what kind of alternatives that will be but they will come up and perhaps in areas where we do not know about right now and I think that all those companies laying off people should also think really think about what they're doing.</li><li>MARTIN: There was a piece about one of the big four companies that issued the report to a government and apparently they relied too much on AI. And although the overall conclusion of the report didn't change, there were a lot of mistakes in the report that apparently was generated by AI. We should also train our people on at least for the foreseeable future on how to check the report that AI made.</li><li>MARTIN: When I started my career, there was a saying that trust is good, but checking is better.</li><li>MARTIN: We should keep hiring people for the foreseeable future at least to check the outcome of the AI report and checking something is much more difficult than creating something. But still jobs will go lost because of AI. But although I do not have the answer right now, I am certain that alternatives will come up.</li><li>KG: In face of uncertainty, sometimes we can refer back to similar occurrences in history where the hurdles were overcome and solutions did emerge. And those are always great prototypes to refer back to.</li><li>KG: Organizations seeking to accelerate and amplify their results by real heavy reliance of technology and human beings similarly placing very high value and projecting great trust on technology. Do you have a take on that? Because I know the field that you actually specialized in was very interesting. Do you see, for example, taxation, the careers in taxation, changing from human to more technology-fueled?</li><li>MARTIN: Because of the shortage of people, we started investing in technology quite early, in the beginning, just to get a more coherent product. But nowadays also get the technology should help us in with the simple tasks like repairing tax returns, 50 % of the work is not tax related, it's just transferring data from from one software product to the other software product. And if you have to do that manually, it's taking up a lot of time for the people you actually want to do more high-end work. So making an automatic transfer from the one data carrier to the carrier that we need to file tax returns on saves a lot of time.</li><li>KG: What excites you these days in terms of your professional pursuits?</li><li>MARTIN: When I was thinking about what is the common denominator of what I've done in my career. I found out that it was helping people.</li><li>MARTIN: I decided to take up a course to become a coach. And enjoying that a lot because I'm learning so much about myself. Things I knew, actually I can put in a new perspective right now, but also a lot of things about myself I don't know. Or I didn't know, I know now.</li><li>MARTIN: I enjoy having the coaching conversations quite a lot. It's more or less the same as the mentoring conversations and coaching conversation I had with my junior colleagues within Deloitte. It's also quite different because where I was actively helping people solving their problems, at the moment I'm learning on how to, not how to solve other people's problems, but how to bring other people to their own solution. And that's difficult, it's challenging. I get a lot of joy from it.</li><li>KG: I know you're also a great reader. Would you like to leave our listeners with a favorite book or quote that has been inspiring you lately?</li><li>MARTIN: The almond tree written by Michel Cohen Corasanti.  It's just a beautiful story which gives you a lot of background on the situation in the Middle East. It starts back in 1955 and it brings you up almost up to present day. It's an incredible moving book and it really gives an insight in what is going on. And it's especially non-judgmental. And that's what I like about it. No one is judged for the way they act. But it is an objective, more or less objective story.</li><li>KG: Is there a quote or a sentence that pops out at you from this book that you wanted to share?</li><li>MARTIN: It's a quote from a rabbi. And it mentions what you hate, don't do this to others. And that's a sentence that is with me now for about a year. And still makes a deep impression on me.</li></ul> <h3>REFERENCES & LINKS:</h3>MARTIN’s Social Media Platforms/Resources<a href="https://www.linkedin.com/in/martingjkoek/" rel="noopener noreferrer" target="_blank" style="color: rgb(17, 85, 204);">LINKEDIN</a>MARTIN’s Suggested Book<a href="https://www.goodreads.com/en/book/show/19466843-the-almond-tree" rel="noopener noreferrer" target="_blank" style="color: rgb(17, 85, 204);">THE ALMOND TREE by Michelle Corasanti</a>The Human Conversation Podcast Channels<a href="https://podcasts.apple.com/us/podcast/the-human-conversation-podcast-on-leadership-and-ethics/id1736302989" rel="noopener noreferrer" target="_blank" style="color: rgb(17, 85, 204);">APPLE PODCASTS</a><a href="https://open.spotify.com/show/2DLMqNqgKZTKyB8zcw5MF0?si=a5c9d1e15b6e4ac3" rel="noopener noreferrer" target="_blank" style="color: rgb(17, 85, 204);">SPOTIFY</a>

Get To Know Our Guest:Martin KoekMartin Koek studied law at the university of Leiden. In 1991 he obtained his master’s degree in tax law. In the same year he started his career as tax advisor with Arthur Andersen. Within Arthur Andersen and later Deloitte he climbed the ranks and in 2002 he became responsible for the corporate income tax compliance practices in the Netherlands. In 2013 Martin relocated to Deloitte in Hyderabad (India) where he managed the compliance practices for Deloitte Netherlands and Deloitte United Kingdom. In 2017 he returned to Deloitte in The Netherlands taking up his role in the Netherlands compliance practice.After his career as tax advisor in 2022, Martin decided to take a break from professional life and focus more on his private life and his hobbies reading and travelling. In 2025 he started his coaching education that he finished in 2026. Currently he is starting up his coaching practice, mainly focusing on career coaching. HIGHLIGHTS & TAKEAWAYS:KG: You've had such an incredible international career as a corporate leader, advisor, mentor, just to name a few. Is there a red thread that ties all of this together for you? I wanted to know what's the driving force behind all that you do?MARTIN: One thing is that I like to solve puzzles and find my way or other people's way out of difficult situations. And I like to help people and perhaps not in the altruistic way, but at least in a professional way.MARTIN: In the beginning of my career, it was about helping clients manage their tax burden. Later on, it became also mentoring of younger colleagues. It became the development of the organization as a whole. And then it's rather difficult to find the right threat but it always focused around helping people solving problems or helping organizations solving problems.KG: Knowing that you have a compliance ethics taxation background yourself, what are the terms ethics and integrity mean to you?MARTIN: I think ethics and integrity are the greatest assets that a leader can have. And the difficulty is how to apply those things in the real everyday life of a leader.MARTIN: As a starting leader, where I realized at one time that I was focusing way too much on reliability and responsibility. And I realized that in my vacation, where I received lots of telephone calls from team members who were trying to solve problems but didn't think that they have the authority themselves to solve the problem. So they always came back to me. I sat down with a consultant to make a SWOT analysis and from that SWOT analysis an action plan had to follow. Okay this is the direction that we are taking and the necessary steps that we had to take the practical steps to make that change. We came up with the solution that we should involve the entire team.MARTIN: The action plan that the team made was the same as the plan I made with the consultant. But the action steps that we had to take were much more complete than I had made together with the consultant. So what I learned from that exercise is that by being transparent and honest about the future of the team. The team was actually thinking about solutions and action steps to take together with me. But it made the team less reliable from me. And it also created a much more open atmosphere where everybody could share their ideas, could share their doubts, their concerns. And we solved everything together.KG: What was it do you think that helped the team make that change when you recommended it?MARTIN: Involving the team and knowing that their views and their recommendations are also appreciated and that I by myself also do not know anything creates an atmosphere that we really we're really going together to make the change to make everything happen.KG: In Asia, where I know some of the talent you worked with was, it is very hierarchical. So did you face any resistance or hurdles from others in the environment? who are used to hierarchy and couldn't understand why you're going against the grain and trying to do something different.MARTIN: I learned quite soon that although the society and also lot of corporations in Asia are hierarchical, hierarchy is very important in those countries and those organizations, people hate it. When I came in and started asking input from the team and involving them in the day to day basis, other than just doing their regular job, but also give them an insight in why we were doing things and that we also needed to make changes. They were all quite happy to give me their input.MARTIN: I've learned that integrity from a leader leads also to integrity from the team. and the same for ethics. If you are an ethical leader, you also get ethical team members. And there are always exceptions, but the broader line is that it is a vice versa thing. Ethical leaders lead to ethical teams. Integrity leads to integrity.KG: Is there a need that you feel comfortable sharing so we can learn from what lessons you took away from it? I'm assuming you're referring to mistakes that help you clarify and fine tune what your ethics are, what your values are.MARTIN: In the evaluation process, there's nothing easier than doing an evaluation conversation with a good performer. You always have a nice open atmosphere. But then you have the conversation with the bad performer. And since most leaders are nice people, or at least want to be perceived as a nice person, the evaluation conversations with bad performers are often of a very bad quality.MARTIN: The evaluator wants to soften the blow and the evaluator is certainly not telling the bad performer that the performance is really bad. We try to hide it a little bit and say this is not the end of the world. If you do this and this you can perform better. But what we are actually doing is hiding the message, leave the bad performer hanging, leaving the bad performer with a feeling of uncertainty. So along the way, I've learned that it is much better to not soften the blow and just tell at the beginning of the conversation, your performance is not up to standards.MARTIN: By listening, you can also determine, okay, there is room for growth. And when you listen to the needs of the other person and really help the person taking the next step, the conversation is suddenly not closed and tense anymore, but it's open and you're trying to build on something. And I think that's also a part of ethics. It's morally wrong to soften the blow. It's ethically right to start with the bad message, but also being open to the input of the person in front.KG: What are some of the real world ethical problems that are most relevant to business leaders today? What are your observations around that?MARTIN: I want to focus on one thing. And it has again to do with the people aspect of business. We started measuring a lot of things like output. We started measuring the number of hours spent on the project compared with the projected number. We started modelling a lot, standardising a lot. And although I am the first to recognize that modelling and that standardization and measuring output brought us a lot, it also harms us. And I feel that we focus too much on the standardized models. And we focus too much on output and we focus too little on the uniqueness that every employee brings to the organization.KG: How can we begin to persuade organizations? What's the business case for it?MARTIN: If we listen more to each other about what works on the models and what doesn't work on the models, we eventually get to a situation that the models are not set in stone anymore. Because quite often we design something and that works, but circumstances change. So if circumstances change, you should also redesign the model and then people feel much more at home.KG: There is a Martin Luther King quote that I recently came across, Martin, that I think is appropriate. He advises that “Faith is about taking the first step, even if the staircase is not clear to you yet.”MARTIN: In my time in Asia, we also designed. We implemented it. We think it's a success. But every three months, the project team is coming together and gets input from the team on is it still working or do we need to tweak so that this is not all set in stone. And in that way it becomes much more durable to keep working in that way because everybody feels hurt and when change is needed we make the change.KG: What is your advice to professionals on how to build these cultures of integrity in their teams and organizations as they grapple with competing priorities?MARTIN: First, as a team you have to do is make sure that everybody is included. And that means that you must have open communication lines where people really listen and understand each other's expectations and needs and wishes. And if there is a clear understanding of expectations and wishes, especially on things that work very well but also on things that do not work, then there is an understanding of what needs to change and what can stay the same. And it's also openness leads to openness.MARTIN: Secondly, the team needs to make sure that everybody has a clear understanding of their roles and responsibilities and actually pick up their roles and responsibilities. And that it is clear that everybody knows what they are doing and also monitor that everybody is picking up their roles and responsibilities. Because they understand a disbalance will occur when someone is not picking up their respective roles and responsibilities.MARTIN: Lastly, there should be a balance in the give and take. So by saying that, mean that employees give their time and capabilities to the employer and they want to have something in return, which is basically a salary and some vacation date. Employers may want from time to time, have an increase in productivity because it's a busy season. And as long as there is some reward for the employees, it's okay.MARTIN: If everybody is included, everybody feels included, if everybody takes up their roles and responsibilities, and when there is a balance, a long-term balance in the give and take. Those are excellent ingredients to build team culture that is both ethical as well as that it has integrity.KG: Do you have any advice for professionals, either mid-career or senior, who are now fearing what is the future of their career paths with AI coming in so extensively? Or advice for people who are going to graduate and are looking to joining the workforce soon on how to navigate this age of AI?MARTIN: Alternatives will come up and I don't know yet what kind of alternatives that will be but they will come up and perhaps in areas where we do not know about right now and I think that all those companies laying off people should also think really think about what they're doing.MARTIN: There was a piece about one of the big four companies that issued the report to a government and apparently they relied too much on AI. And although the overall conclusion of the report didn't change, there were a lot of mistakes in the report that apparently was generated by AI. We should also train our people on at least for the foreseeable future on how to check the report that AI made.MARTIN: When I started my career, there was a saying that trust is good, but checking is better.MARTIN: We should keep hiring people for the foreseeable future at least to check the outcome of the AI report and checking something is much more difficult than creating something. But still jobs will go lost because of AI. But although I do not have the answer right now, I am certain that alternatives will come up.KG: In face of uncertainty, sometimes we can refer back to similar occurrences in history where the hurdles were overcome and solutions did emerge. And those are always great prototypes to refer back to.KG: Organizations seeking to accelerate and amplify their results by real heavy reliance of technology and human beings similarly placing very high value and projecting great trust on technology. Do you have a take on that? Because I know the field that you actually specialized in was very interesting. Do you see, for example, taxation, the careers in taxation, changing from human to more technology-fueled?MARTIN: Because of the shortage of people, we started investing in technology quite early, in the beginning, just to get a more coherent product. But nowadays also get the technology should help us in with the simple tasks like repairing tax returns, 50 % of the work is not tax related, it's just transferring data from from one software product to the other software product. And if you have to do that manually, it's taking up a lot of time for the people you actually want to do more high-end work. So making an automatic transfer from the one data carrier to the carrier that we need to file tax returns on saves a lot of time.KG: What excites you these days in terms of your professional pursuits?MARTIN: When I was thinking about what is the common denominator of what I've done in my career. I found out that it was helping people.MARTIN: I decided to take up a course to become a coach. And enjoying that a lot because I'm learning so much about myself. Things I knew, actually I can put in a new perspective right now, but also a lot of things about myself I don't know. Or I didn't know, I know now.MARTIN: I enjoy having the coaching conversations quite a lot. It's more or less the same as the mentoring conversations and coaching conversation I had with my junior colleagues within Deloitte. It's also quite different because where I was actively helping people solving their problems, at the moment I'm learning on how to, not how to solve other people's problems, but how to bring other people to their own solution. And that's difficult, it's challenging. I get a lot of joy from it.KG: I know you're also a great reader. Would you like to leave our listeners with a favorite book or quote that has been inspiring you lately?MARTIN: The almond tree written by Michel Cohen Corasanti.  It's just a beautiful story which gives you a lot of background on the situation in the Middle East. It starts back in 1955 and it brings you up almost up to present day. It's an incredible moving book and it really gives an insight in what is going on. And it's especially non-judgmental. And that's what I like about it. No one is judged for the way they act. But it is an objective, more or less objective story.KG: Is there a quote or a sentence that pops out at you from this book that you wanted to share?MARTIN: It's a quote from a rabbi. And it mentions what you hate, don't do this to others. And that's a sentence that is with me now for about a year. And still makes a deep impression on me.REFERENCES & LINKS:MARTIN’s Social Media Platforms/ResourcesLINKEDINMARTIN’s Suggested BookTHE ALMOND TREE by Michelle CorasantiThe Human Conversation Podcast ChannelsAPPLE PODCASTSSPOTIFY

Human Conversation with Martin Koek

Get To Know Our Guest:Susan CaesarSusan Caesar is a strategist, storyteller, and systems leader working at the intersection of artificial intelligence, human development, and the living world.She serves as the Director of Artificial Intelligence at the International Coaching Federation (ICF), where she leads the responsible integration of AI across a global community of more than 60,000 coaches. Susan guides ICF’s AI strategy for 2026 and beyond, ensuring that emerging technologies strengthen human capability, elevate professional standards, and uphold the dignity, agency, and wellbeing of people worldwide.Susan is also the Founder of humain.org, a 501(c)(3) nonprofit advancing life-centered leadership and innovation. Her work at Humain.org champions two core commitments: women leading with life and innovation that regenerates the natural world. Through applied research, thought leadership, and cross sector partnerships spanning technology and conservation, she is helping to redefine progress in service of both humanity and the planet.She hosts the humainorg podcast, a storytelling platform featuring global voices who are reimagining how technology, nature, and society can flourish together. As a writer and speaker, Susan explores ethical innovation, regenerative futures, and the cultural transformations needed to usher in a truly life centered era.In addition, Susan is the co-founder of the Lead With Purpose movement, created with Donna Potts McKenzie, which delivers leadership programs for community colleges (including Harper College) and future-of-work pathways for organizations navigating rapid transformation.Across her work in strategy, storytelling, and systems change, Susan’s purpose is clear: to help people, organizations, and technologies lead with wisdom, so that human potential, innovation, and the living planet can thrive together. HIGHLIGHTS & TAKEAWAYS:KG: You've had such an interesting career, customer experience, digital transformation, AI, as a corporate executive, advisor, thought leader, podcaster, to name just a few. Is there a red thread that ties all of it together for you? I want to know what's the driving force behind all that you do?SUSAN: If I look back when I was a child, I felt that everybody should be having the same opportunities. For me that as a child, I was going, why I want to have equity, equality. So that was a driving force. I think the driving force for me has been around that is people centric, something about treating people equally and with respect and also emotion.SUSAN: Emotion is at the root of action. How we feel affects what we believe and what we then do. I went from being a creative into being operational. I ran customer and employee operations and I was using technology in a way that gave people better experiences to create the environment and the interactions that created positive emotions because if you've got happy customers and happy staff, then you've got a more profitable business. I learned that life and business is all about relationships. And I'm committed to making business and society more humane.SUSAN: I still don't feel that we have equity or equal opportunities for people. That's why I advocate for DEIB. I'm really passionate about having diversity in the room because actually it's better for decision-making. The more diverse people and ideas that you have and voices, the stronger the solutions. Actually there's a good reason why I care about that.KG: What makes you believe so strongly that concepts like equity, emotional intelligence, human-centered design, why do you believe they're so important and to be at the core of all these transformational things that are happening around us?SUSAN: My career has been around that intersection between people and whatever the emerging technology is and using that in a way, because I've worked in global organizations. It’s been about how you leverage that intersection of human connection and technology to do the right thing by customers, employees at scale. And when I think about ethics and integrity in that space, it is all about honoring our shared humanity. When we are thinking about making changes in organizations or deploying these technologies, it should be there to serve the people. It should be there to add more value to what the purpose of that organization is and what the customers or the citizens that they're serving, how they get more of what they're expecting from that organization.SUSAN: I think part of the red thread for me is about ethics and integrity helps us deploy things or make decisions that are good for humanity. I think also acting with empathy, honesty and respect should be happening in every relationship. In every moment I used to talk about when in organizations like every decision, every transaction should be supporting and reinforcing the brand values of that organization. And in the wider context, it should be supporting and reinforcing empathy, honesty and respect, dignity for people.KG: Do you feel that it is feasible for business leaders, brand managers, product managers, innovators of the world to be able to prioritize human dignity, human rights, concepts like these as they are looking at some of the tough trade-offs today, breakthrough innovations, scaling up profitability, shareholder value?SUSAN: I think they have to end that the tide is turning. I think if you think about it right now, I believe in 2025, we have become disconnected from ourselves, disconnected from each other and disconnected from the world that we live in. There's lots of data points to evidence why that statement might be true. If you think about how we've lost trust in all of the institutions, how we, you know, the level of need for wellbeing. Then if you think about the planet, just all of the indices that we track to show how we are treating the world that we live in and the other creatures that we share the world with. I think there's a lot of evidence to say that we need to change.SUSAN: I think with AI coming, I think there is the opportunity to change because now we're going to be able to, I think leaders need to be standing back and really thinking about the long-term sustainability of their organization and how it is treating its people and the world because the younger generations are going to ask those questions.SUSAN: I think it is possible, I think it is happening. I personally am advocating for that in my organization, Humane Org. For me, it's all about helping women leaders, advocating for them, and then helping leaders make choices that are good for the people that work with them, the societies and the communities they're part of and ultimately what we're doing to our planet.KG: In all of your experiences, has there been one that jumps out in your mind that challenged your sense of ethics and integrity. If you could share something and what you learned from that experience because I think it will shine a light for others who are similarly grappling with ethical dilemmas and asking themselves, can I survive this by doing the right thing?SUSAN: In the beginning of my career, women weren't treated fairly, I don't think, and I experienced that. And then more laterally, think organizations really have grown so big and hierarchical and it really doesn't fit what the world needs today. And COVID was a good example of that, how we had to completely pivot what organizations are. Anyway, through all of that, I've chosen not to work in a corporate now. I work for ICF, the International Coaching Federation, and I am helping that organization elevate coaching because I believe coaching is a way to help the future.SUSAN: I've worked in the tech industry and that's often been the first place that layoffs happen. And I mean, I've had to do it or I've done it because I've been a leader in those organizations. I've understood why the business needed to do it. However, the effects that that have has on people, their livelihoods, the families that they have, the communities that they're part of. I found that a difficult ethical dilemma. And it therefore shaped my conviction that we can and must do business differently. And that's why I've set up Humane Org. It is human centered leadership.SUSAN: I'm here because I believe coaching in every walk of life, if people have access to coaching, then it helps us be better people, better leaders. And therefore it's the ripple effects of what that can do in society. That's the consequence of my ethical dilemmas. I believe I'm in a much better space now and feel I'm in flow as a person and I hope to influence other people in those spaces so that they can help organisations heal.KG: As an expert on responsible, humane AI, what are your observations on real world ethical dilemmas most relevant today? And what would your advice be to professionals grappling with such situations?SUSAN: I think at the moment we have a power imbalance and I believe that will get resolved. But right now you've got the power of a few impacting the many. I don't see the influences, the governments could be influencing this, but they are not at the moment, but I think there are some signs, some signals that are changing.SUSAN: I mentioned the breakdown of trust, and this is in many aspects of our lives. And, you know, the fact that we, whether it's in a business as lead or in organizations and leaders, whether you're a leader in a community or educational establishment or a business, you're faced with perpetual volatility at the moment and complexity. And we as consumers also feel that. We feel there's a need to act.SUSAN: I advise leaders to help themselves with this. Hire a coach. If you haven't got a coach in your life right now, I would advocate for getting one. I believe coaching is really a human practice. And so you may be using AI tools to spar on ideas around your goals, your life, et cetera, but that is not the same experience as working with a coach.SUSAN: What coaching does, helps you pause, slow down, have presence, reflect. It enables you to zoom out and then you become much better at thinking through and making decisions that actually have the right impact now, but are also good for the longer term.SUSAN: If you put yourself in the center of all of these changes that are happening around you, all the decisions you need to make, all the tools that you have access to, you know, how do you make sense of all of that? If you've got another human alongside you that is trained in coaching and is an expert at how to be present in that moment with lived experience, with wisdom, with all of the groundedness that coaches have, they will help you make sense of everything that's around you, everything that you're experiencing, in order that you can make the decision about what's the right pathway for you, what's your purpose, and how do you get from where you are today to where you want to be.KG: What would your advice be on how we can partner with and use technology to enhance the support and service we provide to individual leaders, to organizations, to societies we serve?SUSAN: I think AI offers us a few opportunities. Its strengths are in the fact that it solves problems faster than we can. It can automate repetitive tasks and it can uncover insights that we may not have seen or could not see.SUSAN: It can spot patterns and it can show how you might be impacting those patterns. And then you can look at that to decide, well, what decisions, what choices are there and what would be the right one for us to make in that moment. And so I think AI really as a partner, it's there to help you not only have the right kind of insights to make decisions or take actions, but it's also enabling you to scale.SUSAN: I think the more that we are aware where there are problems, the more we are and how they make the root cause of those problems. I think and I believe that humanity will be ingenious and find ways to solve for those so that we still can take the benefit of and value from these discoveries of AI. So what AI is doing in the world, it's not going to go away. I think it's going to get better and better the more that we understand how we can harness it for our good.KG: In your observation, what are some other things, individuals, organizations, non-profit organizations and initiatives like the kind you lead, what role can they play in ensuring that the kind of work needed that you're pointing out, whether it's debiasing, ethical, human, prioritizing human rights, inclusion, those kinds of important aspects. How can NGOs, the individual leaders, corporates maybe even play a role and support this where governments and legislations are not yet adequate?SUSAN: The first thing is we can't be passive. We have to be active in this space. If I use myself as an example, you have to educate yourself. You have to become aware of what the challenges are, what the opportunities are, you know, and really understand what's surfacing. And I think from that point of view, then you have an obligation, no matter what role you have your obligation is twofold.SUSAN: One is public awareness. So if you are in a space where you can help others understand and keep safe, then we should. I do want to start a campaign that allows us to, you know, talk about do no harm, talk about how people using AI for experiences of companionship, et cetera, what the implications and the things to watch for are.SUSAN: Wherever you are impacting the world, so whatever position you're in, if you're working with other people who have the opportunity to leverage AI and everybody does, it's helped them on their pathway to experiment with it, play with it, gain curiosity around it, and then become practical users of AI.SUSAN: I will be doing more to create educational courses, online activities and also probably a playground somewhere where somebody can play with the tools in a way that's safe. And also as part of my role, I have already got the AI standards and framework and our code of ethics, which provides guidance to people that are building technology in the coaching profession. But I want to do more in that space. I want to find smarter ways to vet and validate other people's technology so that I can provide assurances to our 62,000 members on which of the products that are being built for coaching, how do we assess them and how do they make decisions about which ones are right for them.KG: You talk the language of the younger generations, the next generations that are perhaps not even yet in the workforce. And I think everything you say and do speaks to that. If those in those generations are listening now, what would your advice to them be, whether in the choice of education, the kinds of things they choose to level up on? Do you have anything to say to the youngest generations?SUSAN: If you think about all of the changes that humanity has come through, each of the technological changes, even though people have been fearful of them and skeptical of them, they've all ended up doing good things for humanity. So this is a change. It is more significant because of the scale and speed, but I think just to remain hopeful in humanity and their place within it. And then to guide them, would say, what's in your heart, follow your heart.SUSAN: Follow your heart because that's the thing that's going to propel you in your mission, in your purpose, in your life. And a career is just one part of that life. It's not the whole thing. And then thinking about the future. AI is transforming everything that we do. Our lives, our work, how we play even. And it's a technology that is going to be moving fast.SUSAN: If you're not a technologist, then I think thinking deeply about the human aspects of the world in the future, because we need the human infrastructure to really make sense of and create value and unlock possibility from the technology. The technology is not going to do it on itself. It needs humans doing that.SUSAN: I think creativity is still, the curiosity of a human mind and the innovation join in the dots in different ways. AI can't do that and therefore finds paths that enable you to think like that and how you might create strategies or blueprints for organizations or communities and really join all of those dots and leverage AI to enable it.SUSAN: If you can create a connection between the green ethics and the climate change and our green economy and AI, I think that again offers some future job opportunities.KG: This is a red thread throughout even in your podcast, it comes through, you're talking not just about humans, but really thinking about perhaps humans leading decision making but thinking about the entire planet, including other life forms and how important that is.KG: I know reverse mentoring has been something that's been developing, but you're talking about younger people having the ability to be powerful coaches as well. Can you share a little bit of a thought on that? Because I think that's powerful. All of us can learn so much from the fresh new thoughts that young people can bring to the table.SUSAN: The qualities that make a great coach aren't necessarily qualities that come with age. I think they are innate things that part of it is that you already have that kind of propensity in your nurture, if you like, or nature.SUSAN: I don't see why age means that you cannot be a coach. I know people use the word wisdom, but wisdom, I think that's tapping into the wisdom of being a human. And the fact that we have, as long as humans have been evolving, that wisdom is passed on to each generation. And so they carry that wisdom irrespective of what age they have.SUSAN: I'm in a profession that transforms humans. And so putting these two things together, I think I'm absolutely in the right place at the right time to help humanity because we need human coaches, we need coaches to be helping people make sense of what's happening and to harness AI for the betterment of everybody. And this is the right space to do that in.KG: Is there a quote, a book or piece of advice that changed your life that you'd like to share with us?SUSAN: It's a quote by Emily Dickinson and it is, "I dwell in possibility."﻿REFERENCES & LINKS:SUSAN’s Social Media Platforms/ResourcesLINKEDINHUMAINORGPODCASTThe Human Conversation Podcast ChannelsAPPLE PODCASTSSPOTIFY

Human Conversation with Susan Caesar

Human Conversation with Jazz Rasool

Get To Know Our Guest:Dr. Isabel de Bruin CardosoDr. Isabel de Bruin Cardso is a leading scholar and practitioner in nonprofit ethics, recognized for her pioneering work on the ethical challenges unique to the nonprofit sector. She is the founder of the Gradel Institute of Charity’s Nonprofit Ethics Lab, an initiative born from her doctoral research at the Rotterdam School of Management, Erasmus University. Her research introduced the concept of the “NGO halo effect”, demonstrating how nonprofits’ missions, moral identities, and people are often idealized in ways that obscure unethical behavior. This groundbreaking work has positioned her as a thought leader in shaping nonprofit ethics as a distinct field of study and practice.Before embarking on her PhD, Isabel accumulated over 15 years of professional experience across a wide range of organizations, including NGOs, religious congregations, philanthropic foundations, the United Nations, and the World Bank. Through this work, she observed that moral missions and strategies such as codes of conduct, safeguarding training, and whistleblowing systems often failed to prevent unethical practices. These insights motivated her to pursue doctoral research and ultimately establish the Nonprofit Ethics Lab, which bridges research and practice to develop approaches to ethics that are fit for purpose in the nonprofit sector.Currently, Isabel serves as a lecturer and coach at the Rotterdam School of Management, Erasmus University, where she teaches organizational ethics and nonprofit management. She is also a visiting lecturer at the Pontifical Gregorian University in Rome, extending her influence to international academic audiences. Alongside her teaching, she consults with NGOs worldwide, helping organizations navigate ethical dilemmas and strengthen their ethical cultures. Isabel also contributes to nonprofit governance as a board member for several NGOs.Her academic contributions include publications in scholarly journals, practitioner outlets, and newspapers, reflecting her commitment to engaging diverse audiences. She is presently co-editing a book on the paradox of nonprofit discrimination, further advancing discourse on the complexities of ethics in the sector. Isabel holds a PhD in Management from Erasmus University, an MA in Human Rights from Columbia University’s School of International and Public Affairs, and a BA in International Affairs from University College Utrecht, Utrecht University. HIGHLIGHTS & TAKEAWAYS:KG: You've had such an interesting career, research, education, consulting across the world, to name just a few. Is there a red thread that ties all of it together for you? What's the driving force behind all that you do?DR. ISABEL: I think a lot of where I am now was based on always a drive to be involved with human rights, not necessarily only from a legal rights perspective, but more human rights as a principle as well. But the different stages and phases of my life have also been shaped a lot by circumstance, by people, and by opportunity.KG: What are the terms ethics and integrity mean to you?DR. ISABEL: How I look at ethics versus integrity, I think that ethics is like the framework. That's really kind of like the North Star, the moral compass of what we stand for. As individuals, these can be our values or also as an organization. So ethics would be what is incorporated into a code of conduct or let's say safeguarding policy.DR. ISABEL: Integrity is the implementation thereof. So it's really practicing what you preach. So without ethics, you can still have integrity, but you're not necessarily having that North Star guiding you. And without integrity, you can have ethics, but then you're not implementing your ethics.DR. ISABEL: Ethics really kind of as an overarching guiding principle, if you will, and integrity, the implementation of it.KG: What can you share with me about how you make that make personal sense to you? Is there a personal story, for example, when you yourself felt tested on these two issues of ethics or integrity?DR. ISABEL: So I think ethics, especially with respect to dilemmas, is thinking through how will a decision impact on the people or the stakeholders around you. Ethical dilemmas and making decisions around them are tough. It's never win-win. So being very conscious of the so-called moral remainder or the moral impact of our decisions.DR. ISABEL: I think with respect to how I approached ethical dilemmas to the extent that I have the luxury of time is to think about it, to take the time to think about it. Try and get as much information, perspectives as I can in order to make as informed a possible decision as much as possible. And also being very conscious to kind of reflect on what the outcome of that decision is.DR. ISABEL: Several times in some of the organizations that I worked for. But then the dilemma is what do you say? And how do you say it? And to whom do you say it? And yes, I suppose we are talking about whistleblowing now, but that dilemma also of the uncertainty of not knowing how that will impact you. So the ethical dilemma speak up or not?DR. ISABEL: I think that experience led me to also do a PhD in the sense of how can we explain both kind of that goodness of these organizations, as well as the fact that they can behave unethically. The ethical dilemmas that I've seen at work can also encourage me to undertake a PhD on this topic.KG: Let's acknowledge both exist, pick a path after considering all your stakeholders, all of the important factors, and instead of getting paralyzed by it, choose a path and then make that reflect on those decisions. It might sometimes be a wrong decision.DR. ISABEL: So a decision, you have like a good decision, which is different than the right decision, which is different than the fitting decision. And I suppose it also depends on how one perceives what the correct decision is.DR. ISABEL: The right decision could be about following the rules. You know, it's very clear, I have to do this because that's what the rules say. The fitting decision could maybe be thinking about the potential outcome of something. And the right decision could maybe be based more on implementing one's own virtues, what they stand for.KG: I feel that particularly nonprofit sectors in areas of work and life where people are very much giving for the betterment of the planet, betterment of humanity or other species really, there is an even deeper expectation of goodness, of good values, of ethics. And the burnout can be so much higher. The cognitive dissonance can be so much starker when people act. unethically or organizations show lack of integrity or lack of alignment with stated values, they do not walk the talk.KG: So the research that you are doing and your pursuits through your PhD and I know the work that you do now are so pivotal. I'd love to hear a little bit more about that.DR. ISABEL: When there is a sense of cognitive dissonance or a sense of an emotional reaction, if you will, when our values are aligned with those of the organization to the extent that one has the privilege of choosing where to work and people work in the nonprofit sector, people tend to work for organizations whose values are very similar to their own.DR. ISABEL: In the sense of your own values can get flamed by the goodness of what your organization is doing. Like it reflects back on you. You think that you become really, really good because your organization is doing so well, creating a Halo effect. And that can also be reinforced even more within the organization itself.DR. ISABEL: If that sense of others' goodness is also idealized, it's easier to turn a blind eye on their unethical behavior. It's easier to give another chance. So people can be prioritized over integrity.DR. ISABEL: You mentioned burnout and that's something that I've also seen within nonprofits. I think one way of also explaining that within nonprofits is if this achievement of the mission is also haloized, that the mission is the end all be all for what the organization does. And if the mission is prioritized above other considerations like staff well-being or whatever else. There can be this tendency indeed for burnout because whatever you're doing, it's not good enough because you still haven't met the mission. So you need to be accessible at all hours of the day. You need to come in on weekends.There is no rest for the hungry, so to speak, because the mission is always there pushing you.KG: One of the problems is also if one is attempting to focus on employee well-being and also diverse perspectives around the board of the nonprofit, it can feel challenging to assess what to focus on. Do you have any advice for non-profits struggling with these kinds of things?DR. ISABEL: That struggle is inherent to nonprofits. Nonprofits are dependent on others for their resources. And this sounds like a paradox, but by excluding, you actually can include more. Because with limited resources, you are forced to make these decisions about what do we focus on. And by focusing on less, but you're able to do one thing arguably better.DR. ISABEL: Is the question too, about do you fundraise based also on what the donor would like you to do? Because there's also an ethical question. If the donor says you were referring to water sanitation, water, washed water sanitation, if the donor says you can do this, but also let's say education, to what extent do you then drift from your intentional mission to accommodate the donor? Or, you know, are you more conscious to fundraise from particular donors who might give you unrestricted funding and allow you to implement as you see best? So these are also decisions that nonprofits have to face. Where do you want to get your money from? Because this has implications too on how that will be used.KG: What are your observations on real world ethical dilemmas most relevant to non-profit boards today and what is your advice to them in those situations?DR. ISABEL: We know that nonprofits at various levels, boards, and executives face their own dilemmas, but they are rarely accessible in the public to begin with. And I think that also comes back down to that assumption of, because these are so-called morally good organizations. They're not made publicly available because of potential scrutiny against the organization or stigma. But they're also not used for training or teaching purposes.DR. ISABEL: So there's also this assumption that just because of business ethics, let's say that a code of ethics work, we assume that it also works in the nonprofit sector. We are a different type of organization. We have a different role and positioning in society than business and then governments. But how ethics is understood and spoken about and discussed and trained on is we're kind of borrowing from public administration in terms of values and implementing values. And we're also borrowing from business in terms of how they consider and actualize ethics management.DR. ISABEL: This is also the intention behind the lab to have conversations on this. Like we were talking about regulation, should the same regulation or accountability standards apply to nonprofits as they do to business, for example, because you're assuming then that the organization are black boxes, we fail to then take into consideration their inherent characteristics, what makes them unique, and their also unique positioning in society.KG: That nuance of higher purpose organizations, morally good organizations, and the lack of structure and how each organization can have a unique problem, how this is under-researched and therefore there's no category. As a researcher who's looking at ethics myself, I think a tripartite collaboration would be very good for societies, the government, the corporate sector and the nonprofits. But those are extremely difficult. They can feel unwieldy.KG: Have you seen any examples that are successful where morally good organizations, nonprofits, governments have all been able to come together to address perhaps some key issues, constraints, discussed constraints, we discussed lack of research. Have you seen any successful examples around these kinds of collaborations?DR. ISABEL: This phrase of morally good organizations and different contexts, you're absolutely right, because it's not in all contexts that nonprofits or NGOs specifically are considered to be morally good. For example, in Brazil, several parts of Brazil, they are mistrusted. And trust is something fundamental for nonprofits because it also allows for them to do their fundraising. And that lack of, that perception that they are not good can also be exacerbated when there is one example of unethical behavior.DR. ISABEL: In terms of partnerships with governments, I think it very much depends on context again, because sometimes nonprofits are like the government's service delivery arm, if you will.DR. ISABEL: One of the characteristics of nonprofits is that they are private, meaning that they have in principle the autonomy to create their own mission, independent from the political ideology of the governments. And you need organizations like that as well for advocacy purposes. You need organizations as well to bring kind of a mirror to civil society about what is wrong and what needs to happen.KG: Lack of trust and excessive public scrutiny and echo chambers in social media and digital world means that any negative thing is magnified and amplified.KG: When I'm working with nonprofit boards too, they're so anxious and paralyzed by not wanting to do anything bold. And they take very, very cautious, minute steps forward, which slows the progress down. But the argument I often hear is we have had a pristine reputation and a storied history of doing good work in the community for over decades.KG: Around this caution, do you have any advice for nonprofits? Is anxiety around trust, losing trust, being cancelled due to public scrutiny?DR. ISABEL: Nonprofits are held to a different standard of accounts. At the end of the day, it's a group of people working in an organizational form, just like a group of people might be working in a business form or in a government form. The question is, we should be able to humanize, I think, all types of organizations and should be cognizant of the fact that there are people behind the organization.DR. ISABEL: The fact that there are mistakes doesn't necessarily mean that they need to be brushed under the carpet, but rather it allows for an opportunity to have a conversation with the organization is where do we go wrong? And how can we do better to prevent it next time?DR. ISABEL: I think the more trusting the organization is then perceived because it humanizes. Certain ethical dilemmas can create anxiety, of course, in terms of will I lose funding? Will I lose other influential stakeholder groups? Then it's also that deep reflection of, if I do not communicate this, for example, to what extent does an organization make a statement about a crisis situation, even though their mission might not necessarily be focused on that part of the world or deal with issues affecting that part of the world, yet they feel morally obligated to make a standpoint.DR. ISABEL: Having conversations on dilemmas, being reflective about what is the ethical dimension of this dilemma. We know an ethical dilemma is different than a dilemma. So what makes it have that ethical components? Having these conversations about how do you see it? How do you perceive it? What would you do? How would you not do it? These conversations also help clarify what the organization stands for. Ethics is about the gray as we know. It's not about the black and the white. The black and the white people are clear on. The gray is unclear and that can also change over time. That can change with circumstance, with crisis. So the more that that gray is spoken about the clearer kind of it becomes like a black or white issue. Like you want to minimize the gray and then the more minimized it becomes, the clearer people in the organization know what the organization stands for and how to implement that as well.KG: What advice do you have for whistleblowers in the field of nonprofit work?DR. ISABEL: In terms of whistleblowing, it's also understanding your organizational context. What would it mean if you were to encourage anonymous whistleblowing? That might mean also harder follow-up when you do get an anonymous complaint. But if it is not anonymous, the person who might want to make the complaint might not necessarily feel psychologically comfortable safe in raising an issue. There has to be also the sense of culture within the organization that encourages speaking up. Speaking up that encourages also listening and then being very clear as what has been done with the listening. Not listening for the sake of listening, but active listening and actually doing something what has been heard.DR. ISABEL: There is no one size fits all in terms of whistleblowing. Again, context matters and there are various dynamics that can also be encountered through setting up whistleblowing processes and structures.KG: With your foundation, do you primarily work with organizations? Or would such a whistleblower, perhaps a well-intentioned, passionate person working within a nonprofit seeking some advice, seeking some help, would individuals also be helped? by your organization? Are you primarily looking to help and advise only organizations and not individuals?DR. ISABEL: Advice in terms of being able to set up or implement any kind of ethics management infrastructure, yes, and that would include whistleblowing. But to receive complaints or suspicions or advice as to how to go about if you wanted to whistleblow, I am not sure if we would do that. We would, however, make can do bespoke training.KG: So the hypothetical I had in mind is there's someone sitting on the board of a nonprofit that's small, doesn't have any processes in place and they certainly feel like there is a problem, whom can I speak with for advice? Are there resources you can suggest for help?DR. ISABEL: That would probably on Charity Commission's websites probably have guidance around who to contact and for what issue. It could be that charity regulators would have, across the world, would have resources on their websites potentially on this. But an ethical dilemma can, especially at an individual level, can also be discussed maybe with a peer in a different organization to the extent that they feel comfortable doing so. Because again, having that different perspective of someone who might be going through the same thing or is in a similar situation or context can provide that perspective.KG: Is there a peer community that you've observed for nonprofits, but that is a niche community need. Have you observed or seen come across anything like that, a peer community for nonprofit leaders?DR. ISABEL: Sometimes funders also facilitate these communities of practice or these learning opportunities where they bring together their grantees and they discuss their experiences, not that the donor is necessarily present, but they fund for the opportunity to allow grantees to come together to discuss a specific topic. Then you've got these umbrella type NGOs. So for example, in the Netherlands, you have Partos and you have Goede Doelen Nederland.REFERENCES & LINKS:DR. ISABEL’s Social Media Platforms/ResourcesLINKEDINGIC Ethics LabThe Human Conversation Podcast ChannelsAPPLE PODCASTSSPOTIFY

Human Conversation with Dr. Isabel de Bruin Cardoso

<h1>Guest: Leah JM Dean</h1> She is the Founder and Chief Executive Officer of Conduit International Ltd a professional and personal development solutions company dedicated to helping organizations, leaders and women work smarter, live well, and foster meaningful connections. With over two decades of experience, Leah has shaped leading HR strategies and served as a trusted coach and advisor to thousands of leaders, employees, and women across the globe. Leah has also led teams and has experience in Strategy Development, Mergers & Acquisitions, Boards & Governance, Professional Speaking, Facilitation, Executive Search, Corporate Communications, Facilities, Administration, and Corporate Social Responsibility. As the CEO of Conduit International LTD, Leah and her team have worked across diverse industries, including insurance, reinsurance, education, non-profit, faith-based, financial services, food and beverage, and business consulting. Leah holds an MBA from St. John’s University and is a certified strengths coach. She is also the author of two books Be Different & Assemble the Tribe, which was named Bermuda’s most popular book of the year in 2021. A self-proclaimed recovering workaholic, Leah is passionate about helping women and organizations to find strategies to optimize their work, invest in their wellbeing and make a lasting impact on the lives of those they touch. When she is not working, Leah enjoys reading, writing, walking in nature, and spending quality time with family and friends. She lives in Bermuda with her husband Terrance and two children.  <h3>HIGHLIGHTS & TAKEAWAYS:</h3><ul><li>KG: You've done so many different things. You've had an impactful career in corporate leadership, speaking, training, coaching, writing, mentoring all over the world. Is there a red thread that ties all of it together for you? I was curious about the driving force behind all that you do.</li><li>LEAH: I had to say that there was a thread, I think the thread that weaves, that has woven its way through everything for me, it really comes back to my mind.</li><li>LEAH: I guess if I had to sum it all up, my why in this season and my why for my work and my business is about helping organizations and leaders and women to work smart, to live well and connect with people.</li><li>LEAH: I'm a strengths coach, so I believe we all have strengths and talents that we can develop into strengths and we should look to unleash that unlock it, the live well piece it's I think we're whole people and so there's the part of us that shows up at work. There's a bus that are leaders there's a gift that we have to give to the organization. But so many leaders do that at the sacrifice of themselves and so how can we live well? And then the connect people has just been my work for the last seven years or so, how do we build community? We need community to live our healthiest, happiest lives. And so all the work that I'm doing every day kind of plays.</li><li>KG: What a beautiful thought. It makes space for varying focus areas and varying needs in different stages of life, but also enables people to identify core values that drive a person forward.</li><li>LEAH: My experience is that your purpose, or purpose by definition, is the reason you exist. You are literally your purpose when you walk into the room and how that purpose is delivered or resonates or shows up in different seasons will change.</li><li>LEAH: When you leave yourself open to the possibility of change, like the world just opens up in a much bigger way than if we put ourselves in these boxes.</li><li>KG: What is your idea of ethics and leadership? What do those stumps mean to you?</li><li>LEAH: Ethics are the principles of conduct that govern an individual or group. They're the principles that drive us as individuals or groups of people. Integrity is really about adherence to a code of values.</li><li>LEAH: Values is like the anchor. It's the thing that, they're the things that keep you grounded in what matters. And then ethics is like the chain connected to the anchor. They connect to your anchor, your daily decisions, they give structure and tension. And then integrity is like the steadiness of the vessel. It shows if your anchor and your chain are keeping you from drifting when the current shifts.</li><li>LEAH: Values are what you believe is important. Ethics create the rule to honor those beliefs. And then integrity is how you live them out when they're watching.</li><li>KG: Do you have a personal story of a time when you had to navigate a different difficult ethical dilemma? But how would the outcome of that incident might have been?</li><li>LEAH: Values, there's deep fundamental beliefs. They're both actual and aspirational. I've learned is that as we grow and as we develop, if we accept that we each have the capacity for change, then it's also possible that our beliefs are going to change, which means the chain and the tension is also going to change over time as well.</li><li>LEAH: When we're navigating these issues, I think it's really important that we leave some room to grow, that we leave some room for grace. And then we also have to remember that a lot of the deep work that we're going to do is actually in the gray.</li><li>KG: A lot of dilemmas and leadership is around the fact that there is no one true clear answer. It's so contextual and you're saying what's important is to maintain a sense of agility and fluidity instead of brittleness and rigidity around looking at things with the binary lens.</li><li>LEAH: Shortly into my tenure I was asked to do something from a values and ethics perspective. I just thought it was unethical. And so my answer has to be that under no circumstance can I do that thing that you're asking me to do. And so at the end of the day, this is the decision that you have to make.</li><li>LEAH: Sometimes when we think that there are these values and ethics that we stand on, we think that we should know the right answers all of the time. Sometimes what we really need to do is take a step back and as you said, give ourselves space to consider all of the options.</li><li>LEAH: These issues that we navigate are never one dimensional. They're often complicated. These issues are going to come up again and again and again. And in some ways it feels like we even more increasing frequency right now and I think if we give ourselves the space to say what's the right answer for this moment I think that we will find ourselves in a better place.</li><li>KG: These days, taking a stance seems like a dangerous thing to do. That you'll alienate some people, that you'll figure out this is what you care about and being seen and being authentic can sometimes feel dangerous because of public scrutiny, because leaders can be cancelled and they are quite often.</li><li>KG: In all of this, what gave you the strength and the clarity to say this is important and I'm okay to take a stance? How can someone evaluate for themselves and make a timely decision on whether or not to take a stance? Can you share a little bit about how you thought it through?</li><li>LEAH: I think there's two deciding factors. One is value. So for me, one of my values is trust. And the definition that I use for trust for me, for my trust value, is trust is where your intent and your behavior line up.</li><li>LEAH: I want to lean into the work smart part of my mission. The other thing that I think helps me is some of my strengths can be very, some of them have a force to them. There's part of me that says, how can I turn the strength on myself to make sure I do the right thing? And so that's part of how I kind of processed how I was going to show up. Like, yes, it's uncomfortable. Yes, you don't really like it, but you have the strengths of responsibility and command and activator.</li><li>LEAH: If the goal is for the organization to achieve results, if the goal is to bring people together, then we owe it to ourselves and the organizations and the situations to have these conversations. And for me, my value said I had to give back.</li><li>KG: Do you have any observations on ethical dilemmas most relevant today? And what would your advice be to professionals, leaders, organizations?</li><li>LEAH: How do we deal with the divisiveness that we see as people pick a spot and then dig in and entrench into those corners? And so the dilemma that a leader often has is do I then couple that with my own beliefs and values and then double down in that space? Or is there something else that I should be doing?</li><li>LEAH: My reflections come from my last piece of work, which is a book that I wrote. It's more of a faith-based book. It's called Be Different.</li><li>LEAH: I often take a piece of work and I say, how could I apply that in a leadership context? And so there is a model that is embedded in this whole idea of being different in that book. And when I apply that from a leadership context, it pushes me to ask leaders to first ask the question, how can I be different? </li><li>LEAH: There's five pillars. 1) Listen Different 2) Trust Different 3) Think Different 4) Talk Different 5) Live Different</li><li>LEAH: The simple definition that I use for that is leadership is about unlocking the greatness in others to achieve results, right? And so if I want to unlock the greatness in my team that has very different views, then what is it that I need to do in order to get to that place that allows us to move forward together?And I would contend that the answer that every leader has to challenge themselves with is how can I be different in the gray.</li><li>KG: How does that work in a rapidly evolving world with so much uncertainty, so much accelerated change, and with a lot of uncertainty also in how do we create an AI-empowered, fair world and not an AI-driven chaos where we can't quite control these very systems that we half-bakedly built. Can you help me understand how this framework that you're recommending will fit the leaders operating in this level of uncertainty too?</li><li>LEAH: I watched this TED Talk on emotion and stress. And the particular speaker, she said, often we are afraid of certain things, but actually we need to use that stress and discomfort as a beacon, almost guiding us towards the thing that we need to address.</li><li>LEAH: You have to talk a little bit differently. You have to talk with more hope. Listen, here's what I, I don't know what's going to happen 10 years down the road, but here's what I know today. And here's how you're adding value. And here's how I can continue to support and develop you. And that may be the only answer that you have, but use the pillar and the anxiety to kind of guide you into your next best step.</li><li>KG: What advice do you have for leaders on how to build cultures of integrity in their organizations, in their teams today.</li><li>LEAH: There's a quote that I use as one of the principles for the program, which says, the feeling is normal. The feeling of fear, the feeling of anxiety, the feeling of frustration, the feeling of anger, the feeling of imposter syndrome, that just makes you human. But it's the decisions that you make after the feelings that matter.</li><li>LEAH: All of those things that we feel, all of those things that your employees feel, they are absolutely normal. They are part of our human experiences, but it's decisions that we make after the feelings that matter. So we can give ourselves space. We can go get advice. We can listen a little bit differently. We can think a little bit differently. We can ask ourselves, how can I be different? and that's okay.</li><li>KG: That quotation pairs beautifully with the leadership model and framework you recommended before. Feeling is normal. Fill in the blank. Whatever feeling you're feeling right now, that's normal. What's the next decision you make? It's that decision that matters. Between the feeling, the feeling and the decision lies the framework. Listen, trust, think, talk and live different. Apply that and then hopefully a decision will emerge for you as you apply the framework.</li><li>KG: Where is your research taking you these days? What are you excited about with regard to all of your work?</li><li>LEAH: There's that live well right in the middle. And the reason why I'm focused on that in the moment is because when I talk to leaders, they share with me I absolutely understand these are the things I have to do to manage well. These are the values that anchor me. These are the things that I need to do to be able to operate more strategically and achieve results. But how can I do all of those things while still not sacrificing my own well-being? I'm a whole person. You know, I need time to invest in my well-being.</li><li>LEAH: Based on my strengths, I am wired to execute. I am wired to work. And so some of this journey for me is in my quest to help others. I will also help myself and that's where my work is taking me at the moment. And so I'm just looking forward to what will reveal itself as I study what does it mean to really live well in our lives and our leadership while still making an impact.</li></ul> <h3>REFERENCES & LINKS:</h3>LEAH’s Social Media Platforms<a href="https://www.linkedin.com/in/leahjmdean/?originalSubdomain=bm" rel="noopener noreferrer" target="_blank" style="color: rgb(17, 85, 204);">LINKEDIN</a><a href="https://www.leahjmdean.com/" rel="noopener noreferrer" target="_blank" style="color: rgb(17, 85, 204);">LEAH J M DEAN WEBSITE</a><a href="https://www.instagram.com/leahjmdean/?hl=en" rel="noopener noreferrer" target="_blank" style="color: rgb(17, 85, 204);">INSTAGRAM</a><a href="https://www.facebook.com/leahjmdean/" rel="noopener noreferrer" target="_blank" style="color: rgb(17, 85, 204);">FACEBOOK</a> LEAH’s Books/Newsletter/Resources<a href="https://www.leahjmdean.com/be-different" rel="noopener noreferrer" target="_blank" style="color: rgb(17, 85, 204);">BE DIFFERENT</a><a href="https://www.leahjmdean.com/book" rel="noopener noreferrer" target="_blank" style="color: rgb(17, 85, 204);">ASSEMBLE THE TRIBE</a><a href="https://www.leahjmdean.com/join" rel="noopener noreferrer" target="_blank" style="color: rgb(17, 85, 204);">The Quiet Life Newsletter</a><a href="https://www.leahjmdean.com/20ways" rel="noopener noreferrer" target="_blank" style="color: rgb(17, 85, 204);">20 ways to invest in your leadership</a> The Human Conversation Podcast Channels<a href="https://podcasts.apple.com/us/podcast/the-human-conversation-podcast-on-leadership-and-ethics/id1736302989" rel="noopener noreferrer" target="_blank" style="color: rgb(17, 85, 204);">APPLE PODCASTS</a><a href="https://open.spotify.com/show/2DLMqNqgKZTKyB8zcw5MF0?si=a5c9d1e15b6e4ac3" rel="noopener noreferrer" target="_blank" style="color: rgb(17, 85, 204);">SPOTIFY</a>

Guest: Leah JM DeanShe is the Founder and Chief Executive Officer of Conduit International Ltd a professional and personal development solutions company dedicated to helping organizations, leaders and women work smarter, live well, and foster meaningful connections. With over two decades of experience, Leah has shaped leading HR strategies and served as a trusted coach and advisor to thousands of leaders, employees, and women across the globe. Leah has also led teams and has experience in Strategy Development, Mergers & Acquisitions, Boards & Governance, Professional Speaking, Facilitation, Executive Search, Corporate Communications, Facilities, Administration, and Corporate Social Responsibility. As the CEO of Conduit International LTD, Leah and her team have worked across diverse industries, including insurance, reinsurance, education, non-profit, faith-based, financial services, food and beverage, and business consulting. Leah holds an MBA from St. John’s University and is a certified strengths coach. She is also the author of two books Be Different & Assemble the Tribe, which was named Bermuda’s most popular book of the year in 2021. A self-proclaimed recovering workaholic, Leah is passionate about helping women and organizations to find strategies to optimize their work, invest in their wellbeing and make a lasting impact on the lives of those they touch. When she is not working, Leah enjoys reading, writing, walking in nature, and spending quality time with family and friends. She lives in Bermuda with her husband Terrance and two children. HIGHLIGHTS & TAKEAWAYS:KG: You've done so many different things. You've had an impactful career in corporate leadership, speaking, training, coaching, writing, mentoring all over the world. Is there a red thread that ties all of it together for you? I was curious about the driving force behind all that you do.LEAH: I had to say that there was a thread, I think the thread that weaves, that has woven its way through everything for me, it really comes back to my mind.LEAH: I guess if I had to sum it all up, my why in this season and my why for my work and my business is about helping organizations and leaders and women to work smart, to live well and connect with people.LEAH: I'm a strengths coach, so I believe we all have strengths and talents that we can develop into strengths and we should look to unleash that unlock it, the live well piece it's I think we're whole people and so there's the part of us that shows up at work. There's a bus that are leaders there's a gift that we have to give to the organization. But so many leaders do that at the sacrifice of themselves and so how can we live well? And then the connect people has just been my work for the last seven years or so, how do we build community? We need community to live our healthiest, happiest lives. And so all the work that I'm doing every day kind of plays.KG: What a beautiful thought. It makes space for varying focus areas and varying needs in different stages of life, but also enables people to identify core values that drive a person forward.LEAH: My experience is that your purpose, or purpose by definition, is the reason you exist. You are literally your purpose when you walk into the room and how that purpose is delivered or resonates or shows up in different seasons will change.LEAH: When you leave yourself open to the possibility of change, like the world just opens up in a much bigger way than if we put ourselves in these boxes.KG: What is your idea of ethics and leadership? What do those stumps mean to you?LEAH: Ethics are the principles of conduct that govern an individual or group. They're the principles that drive us as individuals or groups of people. Integrity is really about adherence to a code of values.LEAH: Values is like the anchor. It's the thing that, they're the things that keep you grounded in what matters. And then ethics is like the chain connected to the anchor. They connect to your anchor, your daily decisions, they give structure and tension. And then integrity is like the steadiness of the vessel. It shows if your anchor and your chain are keeping you from drifting when the current shifts.LEAH: Values are what you believe is important. Ethics create the rule to honor those beliefs. And then integrity is how you live them out when they're watching.KG: Do you have a personal story of a time when you had to navigate a different difficult ethical dilemma? But how would the outcome of that incident might have been?LEAH: Values, there's deep fundamental beliefs. They're both actual and aspirational. I've learned is that as we grow and as we develop, if we accept that we each have the capacity for change, then it's also possible that our beliefs are going to change, which means the chain and the tension is also going to change over time as well.LEAH: When we're navigating these issues, I think it's really important that we leave some room to grow, that we leave some room for grace. And then we also have to remember that a lot of the deep work that we're going to do is actually in the gray.KG: A lot of dilemmas and leadership is around the fact that there is no one true clear answer. It's so contextual and you're saying what's important is to maintain a sense of agility and fluidity instead of brittleness and rigidity around looking at things with the binary lens.LEAH: Shortly into my tenure I was asked to do something from a values and ethics perspective. I just thought it was unethical. And so my answer has to be that under no circumstance can I do that thing that you're asking me to do. And so at the end of the day, this is the decision that you have to make.LEAH: Sometimes when we think that there are these values and ethics that we stand on, we think that we should know the right answers all of the time. Sometimes what we really need to do is take a step back and as you said, give ourselves space to consider all of the options.LEAH: These issues that we navigate are never one dimensional. They're often complicated. These issues are going to come up again and again and again. And in some ways it feels like we even more increasing frequency right now and I think if we give ourselves the space to say what's the right answer for this moment I think that we will find ourselves in a better place.KG: These days, taking a stance seems like a dangerous thing to do. That you'll alienate some people, that you'll figure out this is what you care about and being seen and being authentic can sometimes feel dangerous because of public scrutiny, because leaders can be cancelled and they are quite often.KG: In all of this, what gave you the strength and the clarity to say this is important and I'm okay to take a stance? How can someone evaluate for themselves and make a timely decision on whether or not to take a stance? Can you share a little bit about how you thought it through?LEAH: I think there's two deciding factors. One is value. So for me, one of my values is trust. And the definition that I use for trust for me, for my trust value, is trust is where your intent and your behavior line up.LEAH: I want to lean into the work smart part of my mission. The other thing that I think helps me is some of my strengths can be very, some of them have a force to them. There's part of me that says, how can I turn the strength on myself to make sure I do the right thing? And so that's part of how I kind of processed how I was going to show up. Like, yes, it's uncomfortable. Yes, you don't really like it, but you have the strengths of responsibility and command and activator.LEAH: If the goal is for the organization to achieve results, if the goal is to bring people together, then we owe it to ourselves and the organizations and the situations to have these conversations. And for me, my value said I had to give back.KG: Do you have any observations on ethical dilemmas most relevant today? And what would your advice be to professionals, leaders, organizations?LEAH: How do we deal with the divisiveness that we see as people pick a spot and then dig in and entrench into those corners? And so the dilemma that a leader often has is do I then couple that with my own beliefs and values and then double down in that space? Or is there something else that I should be doing?LEAH: My reflections come from my last piece of work, which is a book that I wrote. It's more of a faith-based book. It's called Be Different.LEAH: I often take a piece of work and I say, how could I apply that in a leadership context? And so there is a model that is embedded in this whole idea of being different in that book. And when I apply that from a leadership context, it pushes me to ask leaders to first ask the question, how can I be different? LEAH: There's five pillars. 1) Listen Different 2) Trust Different 3) Think Different 4) Talk Different 5) Live DifferentLEAH: The simple definition that I use for that is leadership is about unlocking the greatness in others to achieve results, right? And so if I want to unlock the greatness in my team that has very different views, then what is it that I need to do in order to get to that place that allows us to move forward together?And I would contend that the answer that every leader has to challenge themselves with is how can I be different in the gray.KG: How does that work in a rapidly evolving world with so much uncertainty, so much accelerated change, and with a lot of uncertainty also in how do we create an AI-empowered, fair world and not an AI-driven chaos where we can't quite control these very systems that we half-bakedly built. Can you help me understand how this framework that you're recommending will fit the leaders operating in this level of uncertainty too?LEAH: I watched this TED Talk on emotion and stress. And the particular speaker, she said, often we are afraid of certain things, but actually we need to use that stress and discomfort as a beacon, almost guiding us towards the thing that we need to address.LEAH: You have to talk a little bit differently. You have to talk with more hope. Listen, here's what I, I don't know what's going to happen 10 years down the road, but here's what I know today. And here's how you're adding value. And here's how I can continue to support and develop you. And that may be the only answer that you have, but use the pillar and the anxiety to kind of guide you into your next best step.KG: What advice do you have for leaders on how to build cultures of integrity in their organizations, in their teams today.LEAH: There's a quote that I use as one of the principles for the program, which says, the feeling is normal. The feeling of fear, the feeling of anxiety, the feeling of frustration, the feeling of anger, the feeling of imposter syndrome, that just makes you human. But it's the decisions that you make after the feelings that matter.LEAH: All of those things that we feel, all of those things that your employees feel, they are absolutely normal. They are part of our human experiences, but it's decisions that we make after the feelings that matter. So we can give ourselves space. We can go get advice. We can listen a little bit differently. We can think a little bit differently. We can ask ourselves, how can I be different? and that's okay.KG: That quotation pairs beautifully with the leadership model and framework you recommended before. Feeling is normal. Fill in the blank. Whatever feeling you're feeling right now, that's normal. What's the next decision you make? It's that decision that matters. Between the feeling, the feeling and the decision lies the framework. Listen, trust, think, talk and live different. Apply that and then hopefully a decision will emerge for you as you apply the framework.KG: Where is your research taking you these days? What are you excited about with regard to all of your work?LEAH: There's that live well right in the middle. And the reason why I'm focused on that in the moment is because when I talk to leaders, they share with me I absolutely understand these are the things I have to do to manage well. These are the values that anchor me. These are the things that I need to do to be able to operate more strategically and achieve results. But how can I do all of those things while still not sacrificing my own well-being? I'm a whole person. You know, I need time to invest in my well-being.LEAH: Based on my strengths, I am wired to execute. I am wired to work. And so some of this journey for me is in my quest to help others. I will also help myself and that's where my work is taking me at the moment. And so I'm just looking forward to what will reveal itself as I study what does it mean to really live well in our lives and our leadership while still making an impact. REFERENCES & LINKS:LEAH’s Social Media PlatformsLINKEDINLEAH J M DEAN WEBSITEINSTAGRAMFACEBOOK LEAH’s Books/Newsletter/ResourcesBE DIFFERENTASSEMBLE THE TRIBEThe Quiet Life Newsletter20 ways to invest in your leadership The Human Conversation Podcast ChannelsAPPLE PODCASTSSPOTIFY

Human Conversation with Leah JM Dean

Human Conversation with Dr. Saman Sarbazvatan

<h1>Guest: Tini Fadzillah</h1> Tini Fadzillah is an executive coach and trainer based in Singapore with clients throughout Asia.She specializes in coaching C-suite and senior executives in performance, leadership and change; with a reputation of surfacing and creating sustainable shifts to the underlying conversations needed to unlock a leader’s full potential and drive results.Tini co-founded TWP in South East Asia in 1996 and has worked with thousands of people from diverse cultures on both personal and professional goals. Her passion is working with people to design a compelling future and to translate their goals into reality.Tini is a Newfield Certified Ontological Coach and is an MCC level certified coach with the International Coaching Federation. Her clients include PETRONAS, La-Prairie, Aditya Birla, Prudential, AXA, Singapore Airlines, Mastercard, Save the Children, Eastspring Investment and Afton Chemical.Tini is a passionate advocate for the role of the body in creating a powerful leadership presence. She is certified to use Tension Releasing Exercises™ and Wendy Palmer’s Leadership Embodiment curriculum. She also co-designed and delivered the “Women and Leadership Presence” program and was an active member of the team that designed the Character Building component of the National Service in Malaysia. Tini is also a certified health coach and embeds wellness within her coaching narratives as well. <h3>HIGHLIGHTS & TAKEAWAYS:</h3><ul><li>KG:  You're a leader of one of the eminent coaching, training companies, and education companies out there. You continue to do different kinds of work. I know that you coach, you train, you podcast, you write, you mentor. Is there a red thread that ties all of it together for you? What's the driving force behind all that you do?</li><li>TINI: Absolutely, and that's people. One of the things I always say is that I absolutely love working with people. I have a firm belief that people wake up in the morning going, how can I do a good job today? And some people hit the mark and some people don't. I get to work with people who have the courage to go, let's try something different. And it's easy for me to say it, but for my clients who really are willing to let go of some of their long-held beliefs is just really courageous. And for them to be able to see the outcome of that is just, it's crazy that I get paid to do what I do. I love people. And that's the thread that runs through everything I do.</li><li>KG: What was your journey that got you to this version of you, where you said, I love people. This is what I want to do. And here's how I'm going to show up in the world?</li><li>TINI: I'm going to say the way I was raised was one of the reasons why I'm here. If you can imagine my whole life up to university where I left home was really about and if you read The book, The Purple Book of Coaching, I talk about this, which is from day young, when I was really young. I just remember us always having these conversations around my dad's work, around some challenges he would have, and they're all linked to relating.</li><li>TINI: One of the things that I learned, which bridges into the work I do today, is that everyone wants to do a good job. I do believe that. Some people hit it, some people don't. And I don't think anyone wakes up in the morning and says, okay, today's the day I'm gonna do a really bad job.</li><li>TINI: My role, and a lot of coaches do this, is our job, if the client wants this, is to support them to create a different future. So to answer your question about where did this come from, I'm going to say it's from my parents, certainly from my dad's work. I still love seeing what's happening in the world platform, in the world stage and just the relationship breakdowns that are happening or the lack of capacity for this or that, or with some people who are doing it really well.</li><li>KG: Tell me a little bit more about what that book (The Purple Book of Coaching) means to you and what your objectives are in bringing that book to the world?</li><li>TINI: We have access to some of the great experts in the field of performance in the field of somatics or the body, emotions, language, ontology, which is the umbrella of it all. And we work with them day in, day out, day in, day out. And people who get to access them are the ones who register for a program or have contracted us to do a program in their organization. We wanted to get some of this wisdom together in a book that's accessible to people globally, beyond just when they sign up for a program. And so that's really the objective.</li><li>TINI: The objective or the drive is to impact human beings. Our objective, I love what I do and it's a tool for people to design the future that they're compelled by, full stop. And so if this is one of the platforms that people can access so that they can, in my chapter, I talk about relationships, that they can really take a look at the distinctions that I'm suggesting impact the quality and effectiveness of relationships and that makes a difference to someone living in the USA, why not? That's really the objective, to collate the wisdom and curate something that everyone can access if they want.</li><li>KG: If there were a one line summary of what the Purple book stands for, what's the message that you're putting out there?</li><li>TINI: The book's objective is for people to leave knowing that you can design your future. You really can, regardless of the historical narratives.</li><li>KG: You create a very positive future, the potential is always positive and uplifted and elevated. How are you able to tie those two things together? What is right in the world?</li><li>TINI: Relationships are everywhere. The question here is, where are you thriving in the relationships that you are creating? Where do you feel you can improve? Things happen in life that something that looked like it was thriving may plummet. And for a window of time, you're not thriving, such as after the death of a loved one. And so you may plummet a bit and your relationship with death, your relationship with loneliness, et cetera, might surface. And so that's really the link I would start with. Would start with relationships happening everywhere.</li><li>KG: Ethics and integrity, what do they mean to you?</li><li>TINI: Someone's capacity to create a fulfilled life, is the link, which is not always about happy. Sometimes it's about what's fulfilling for me. It can include happy. It can include contribution. And so the link to Ethics, integrity is to be in line with what matters to you in my world.</li><li>KG: Would you feel comfortable sharing a personal example where you felt challenged, but you navigated through it while feeling one, you stayed aligned with your values and two, you were satisfied with how you showed up in that situation?</li><li>TINI: The story of being a mom and being a mom to a child with special needs. I actually think it was my values that had me and what mattered to me, that really had me get on this journey.</li><li>TINI: There is that transitional moment and my capacity to have my values align myself to create the clarity and designing my future.</li><li>TINI: For those who might be starting their journey, it might be like, it's still really gray and cloudy. And that's okay because we become stronger. It could be that there was a breakdown in the organization. It could be that you need to lay off a whole bunch of people and it could be anything that you perceive as a breakdown. I know it's the value of the work that I did, because I was already doing this work and now is my opportunity to live what I'm working with people to live. It's like, I get to be a self-coach and even access my peers.</li><li>TINI: Relationships, which is no one's expecting you to do this yourself. My point of view is we're actually the worst when we're like, you handle it yourself. This is a solo sport. It isn't. It isn't in my world. And it was with the support of lots of people and the environment of people always asking the question of what is it that matters to you? And then getting aligned with that.</li><li>TINI: We're all writing chapters. The book doesn't end until it ends.</li><li>KG: In navigating some of the greatest challenges, focusing inwards on understanding yourself, exploring what's possible within you is what is critical. Would you agree?</li><li>TINI: There's value in focusing in words. And what I mean by that is the reflective nature of in words.</li><li>TINI: When I focus inwards and I grow and I learn by self-reflection. I actually become better when I focus out and come from a place of contribution. What's my contribution? And my contribution could be tough love. My contribution could be honesty. My contribution could be listening, whatever it is, but coming from a place of focusing out to be part of a solution. And what came to me is this idea of living with polarities. The power of polarities.</li><li>TINI: It's actually necessary, us breathing in, inhale, exhale. You can't breathe by just exhaling all the time. It comes in a package. What triggered my thinking when you said inward reflection and then outward focus and I think that's really perfect and relating is like that too right this is all about relating actually where it's where am I relating with self what is my relationship with self and what's my relationship outwards it's a lovely polarity.</li><li>KG: What are you observing are some of the most demanding ethical dilemmas of the day? Are you observing any patterns of the age right now?</li><li>TINI: Let me just start with general patterns first. And this has been consistent and it's equally as consistent and present today. And it links with this whole premise of people relating with one another and this idea of ethics, maybe not so much ethics, but just being in alignment with my principles and being in integrity with it.</li><li>TINI: If you're not working in an organization, then you can start to reflect on what are the organizations that I'm engaged with and how is this relevant? And the one that is consistent is this idea of being honest.</li><li>TINI: Something that's not in alignment with fill in the blank. Could be not in alignment with the objectives of this project we're working on, or it's out of integrity with. Do I have the capacity to give this feedback? This is one of the breakdowns that happens. And what happens is it creates all of this relationship tensions, which then impacts people's capacity to produce results. Because I notice something which by the way is my perception of what you’ve done.</li><li>TINI: People's capacity to be honest and talk. It doesn't always have to be confrontative. People forget that actually there is legitimacy in how you see things. All of you, how you see things, there is lot of legitimacy in that.</li><li>KG: Could you maybe guide us on how that might sound if someone were sharing in a way that invites a fruitful conversation versus everyone buttoning down their hatches and saying, no, you are wrong. No, you are more wrong than I am. How can you avoid that?</li><li>TINI: People default to their habits. The context of the conversation matters. What do I mean by context? Context means where am I coming from? What's my objective?</li><li>TINI: If you're gonna have a difficult conversation with someone, I think for you to get plugged into is to ask yourself, what's the outcome here? And what's my objective? Is my objective to be right? Is my objective to make you wrong? Now I'm gonna suggest that objective, even though it's you getting clear about it, it's probably not gonna work. Now, if your objective is to give feedback to support the other person to be better next time, if your context comes from a place of care.</li><li>TINI: If I can appreciate how they see their world, I can curate my conversation because my objective is not just to explode a bomb in front of them and say, all right, there you go. Please handle it. That's not effective. My objective is to have a message and I want to lend the message powerfully. And so I need to know who I'm speaking to and I need to curate that conversation in a way that I believe is going to be received effectively by the listener.</li><li>TINI: Comfort is not necessarily my objective. Effectiveness is my objective.</li><li>KG: When I think about relationships and navigating those that are valuable to us, sometimes it's about not being able to safely walk away. We do not have the luxury of being able to walk away safely from these places. We're engaging and the triggers are ongoing. The relationships are important. And I suspect often what happens is it becomes harder to stay focused on these two points that you are pointing us towards. It's very hard for me to be calm within myself and remind myself of the potential and the possibilities of the situation.</li><li>TINI: You may not need to offload if you do it regularly. It could just be regular conversations to just check-ins with each other to support, to be a source of support. Talking through, so one of the strategies is just talking through some of the challenges that you have.</li><li>TINI: A sidebar is that, if you think about one of the buzzwords now is longevity. Not necessarily live longer, but stay healthy in the life that we have. So stay healthy longer. And being in relationship with people, being engaged in communities is one of the ingredients for longevity and wellness. Mental health, the capacity to offload and talk and seek support.</li><li>TINI: Start to notice your default patterns and break it down. Just take one behavior that you're going to try differently.</li><li>TINI: One of the things just around breaking down the muscles, breaking it down and treating it like muscles is where it all starts to interlink. Get feedback. Get feedback from, if you have the courage, from the people who have given a lot of feedback about you.</li><li>TINI: What I love about relationships. I love that it's not a formula. It really requires curating. It really requires empathy. It requires a commitment to initiate something and be clear about what it is that I want to create. And it requires me to go, this is not the relationship that I want to spend my energy on and be willing to walk away.</li><li>TINI: We all have the autonomy. We all have the power to design the future that's compelling for each of us. And the analogy that I always use is the vision that I have, the work that I do is in line with the vision, which is when all of us or the lucky ones who reach 100 years old or whatever that old age is, when we're on our rocking chairs, that we can look back on our lives and not say, I should have, I could have, I wish I did. But rather to sit on our rocking chairs and look back and go, now that was a frickin' awesome life.</li></ul> <h3>REFERENCES & LINKS:</h3>TINI’s LinkedIn/Website page<a href="https://www.linkedin.com/in/tini-fadzillah-mcc-48b4a631/" rel="noopener noreferrer" target="_blank" style="color: rgb(17, 85, 204);">LINKEDIN</a><a href="https://www.thecoachpartnership.com/tini-fadzillah/" rel="noopener noreferrer" target="_blank" style="color: rgb(17, 85, 204);">THE COACH PARTNERSHIP</a>TINI’s Book Suggestions<a href="https://www.thecoachpartnership.com/the-purple-book-of-coaching/" rel="noopener noreferrer" target="_blank" style="color: rgb(17, 85, 204);">THE PURPLE BOOK OF COACHING</a>The Human Conversation Podcast Channels<a href="https://podcasts.apple.com/us/podcast/the-human-conversation-podcast-on-leadership-and-ethics/id1736302989" rel="noopener noreferrer" target="_blank" style="color: rgb(17, 85, 204);">APPLE PODCASTS</a><a href="https://open.spotify.com/show/2DLMqNqgKZTKyB8zcw5MF0?si=a5c9d1e15b6e4ac3" rel="noopener noreferrer" target="_blank" style="color: rgb(17, 85, 204);">SPOTIFY</a>

Guest: Tini FadzillahTini Fadzillah is an executive coach and trainer based in Singapore with clients throughout Asia.She specializes in coaching C-suite and senior executives in performance, leadership and change; with a reputation of surfacing and creating sustainable shifts to the underlying conversations needed to unlock a leader’s full potential and drive results.Tini co-founded TWP in South East Asia in 1996 and has worked with thousands of people from diverse cultures on both personal and professional goals. Her passion is working with people to design a compelling future and to translate their goals into reality.Tini is a Newfield Certified Ontological Coach and is an MCC level certified coach with the International Coaching Federation. Her clients include PETRONAS, La-Prairie, Aditya Birla, Prudential, AXA, Singapore Airlines, Mastercard, Save the Children, Eastspring Investment and Afton Chemical.Tini is a passionate advocate for the role of the body in creating a powerful leadership presence. She is certified to use Tension Releasing Exercises™ and Wendy Palmer’s Leadership Embodiment curriculum. She also co-designed and delivered the “Women and Leadership Presence” program and was an active member of the team that designed the Character Building component of the National Service in Malaysia. Tini is also a certified health coach and embeds wellness within her coaching narratives as well. HIGHLIGHTS & TAKEAWAYS:KG:  You're a leader of one of the eminent coaching, training companies, and education companies out there. You continue to do different kinds of work. I know that you coach, you train, you podcast, you write, you mentor. Is there a red thread that ties all of it together for you? What's the driving force behind all that you do?TINI: Absolutely, and that's people. One of the things I always say is that I absolutely love working with people. I have a firm belief that people wake up in the morning going, how can I do a good job today? And some people hit the mark and some people don't. I get to work with people who have the courage to go, let's try something different. And it's easy for me to say it, but for my clients who really are willing to let go of some of their long-held beliefs is just really courageous. And for them to be able to see the outcome of that is just, it's crazy that I get paid to do what I do. I love people. And that's the thread that runs through everything I do.KG: What was your journey that got you to this version of you, where you said, I love people. This is what I want to do. And here's how I'm going to show up in the world?TINI: I'm going to say the way I was raised was one of the reasons why I'm here. If you can imagine my whole life up to university where I left home was really about and if you read The book, The Purple Book of Coaching, I talk about this, which is from day young, when I was really young. I just remember us always having these conversations around my dad's work, around some challenges he would have, and they're all linked to relating.TINI: One of the things that I learned, which bridges into the work I do today, is that everyone wants to do a good job. I do believe that. Some people hit it, some people don't. And I don't think anyone wakes up in the morning and says, okay, today's the day I'm gonna do a really bad job.TINI: My role, and a lot of coaches do this, is our job, if the client wants this, is to support them to create a different future. So to answer your question about where did this come from, I'm going to say it's from my parents, certainly from my dad's work. I still love seeing what's happening in the world platform, in the world stage and just the relationship breakdowns that are happening or the lack of capacity for this or that, or with some people who are doing it really well.KG: Tell me a little bit more about what that book (The Purple Book of Coaching) means to you and what your objectives are in bringing that book to the world?TINI: We have access to some of the great experts in the field of performance in the field of somatics or the body, emotions, language, ontology, which is the umbrella of it all. And we work with them day in, day out, day in, day out. And people who get to access them are the ones who register for a program or have contracted us to do a program in their organization. We wanted to get some of this wisdom together in a book that's accessible to people globally, beyond just when they sign up for a program. And so that's really the objective.TINI: The objective or the drive is to impact human beings. Our objective, I love what I do and it's a tool for people to design the future that they're compelled by, full stop. And so if this is one of the platforms that people can access so that they can, in my chapter, I talk about relationships, that they can really take a look at the distinctions that I'm suggesting impact the quality and effectiveness of relationships and that makes a difference to someone living in the USA, why not? That's really the objective, to collate the wisdom and curate something that everyone can access if they want.KG: If there were a one line summary of what the Purple book stands for, what's the message that you're putting out there?TINI: The book's objective is for people to leave knowing that you can design your future. You really can, regardless of the historical narratives.KG: You create a very positive future, the potential is always positive and uplifted and elevated. How are you able to tie those two things together? What is right in the world?TINI: Relationships are everywhere. The question here is, where are you thriving in the relationships that you are creating? Where do you feel you can improve? Things happen in life that something that looked like it was thriving may plummet. And for a window of time, you're not thriving, such as after the death of a loved one. And so you may plummet a bit and your relationship with death, your relationship with loneliness, et cetera, might surface. And so that's really the link I would start with. Would start with relationships happening everywhere.KG: Ethics and integrity, what do they mean to you?TINI: Someone's capacity to create a fulfilled life, is the link, which is not always about happy. Sometimes it's about what's fulfilling for me. It can include happy. It can include contribution. And so the link to Ethics, integrity is to be in line with what matters to you in my world.KG: Would you feel comfortable sharing a personal example where you felt challenged, but you navigated through it while feeling one, you stayed aligned with your values and two, you were satisfied with how you showed up in that situation?TINI: The story of being a mom and being a mom to a child with special needs. I actually think it was my values that had me and what mattered to me, that really had me get on this journey.TINI: There is that transitional moment and my capacity to have my values align myself to create the clarity and designing my future.TINI: For those who might be starting their journey, it might be like, it's still really gray and cloudy. And that's okay because we become stronger. It could be that there was a breakdown in the organization. It could be that you need to lay off a whole bunch of people and it could be anything that you perceive as a breakdown. I know it's the value of the work that I did, because I was already doing this work and now is my opportunity to live what I'm working with people to live. It's like, I get to be a self-coach and even access my peers.TINI: Relationships, which is no one's expecting you to do this yourself. My point of view is we're actually the worst when we're like, you handle it yourself. This is a solo sport. It isn't. It isn't in my world. And it was with the support of lots of people and the environment of people always asking the question of what is it that matters to you? And then getting aligned with that.TINI: We're all writing chapters. The book doesn't end until it ends.KG: In navigating some of the greatest challenges, focusing inwards on understanding yourself, exploring what's possible within you is what is critical. Would you agree?TINI: There's value in focusing in words. And what I mean by that is the reflective nature of in words.TINI: When I focus inwards and I grow and I learn by self-reflection. I actually become better when I focus out and come from a place of contribution. What's my contribution? And my contribution could be tough love. My contribution could be honesty. My contribution could be listening, whatever it is, but coming from a place of focusing out to be part of a solution. And what came to me is this idea of living with polarities. The power of polarities.TINI: It's actually necessary, us breathing in, inhale, exhale. You can't breathe by just exhaling all the time. It comes in a package. What triggered my thinking when you said inward reflection and then outward focus and I think that's really perfect and relating is like that too right this is all about relating actually where it's where am I relating with self what is my relationship with self and what's my relationship outwards it's a lovely polarity.KG: What are you observing are some of the most demanding ethical dilemmas of the day? Are you observing any patterns of the age right now?TINI: Let me just start with general patterns first. And this has been consistent and it's equally as consistent and present today. And it links with this whole premise of people relating with one another and this idea of ethics, maybe not so much ethics, but just being in alignment with my principles and being in integrity with it.TINI: If you're not working in an organization, then you can start to reflect on what are the organizations that I'm engaged with and how is this relevant? And the one that is consistent is this idea of being honest.TINI: Something that's not in alignment with fill in the blank. Could be not in alignment with the objectives of this project we're working on, or it's out of integrity with. Do I have the capacity to give this feedback? This is one of the breakdowns that happens. And what happens is it creates all of this relationship tensions, which then impacts people's capacity to produce results. Because I notice something which by the way is my perception of what you’ve done.TINI: People's capacity to be honest and talk. It doesn't always have to be confrontative. People forget that actually there is legitimacy in how you see things. All of you, how you see things, there is lot of legitimacy in that.KG: Could you maybe guide us on how that might sound if someone were sharing in a way that invites a fruitful conversation versus everyone buttoning down their hatches and saying, no, you are wrong. No, you are more wrong than I am. How can you avoid that?TINI: People default to their habits. The context of the conversation matters. What do I mean by context? Context means where am I coming from? What's my objective?TINI: If you're gonna have a difficult conversation with someone, I think for you to get plugged into is to ask yourself, what's the outcome here? And what's my objective? Is my objective to be right? Is my objective to make you wrong? Now I'm gonna suggest that objective, even though it's you getting clear about it, it's probably not gonna work. Now, if your objective is to give feedback to support the other person to be better next time, if your context comes from a place of care.TINI: If I can appreciate how they see their world, I can curate my conversation because my objective is not just to explode a bomb in front of them and say, all right, there you go. Please handle it. That's not effective. My objective is to have a message and I want to lend the message powerfully. And so I need to know who I'm speaking to and I need to curate that conversation in a way that I believe is going to be received effectively by the listener.TINI: Comfort is not necessarily my objective. Effectiveness is my objective.KG: When I think about relationships and navigating those that are valuable to us, sometimes it's about not being able to safely walk away. We do not have the luxury of being able to walk away safely from these places. We're engaging and the triggers are ongoing. The relationships are important. And I suspect often what happens is it becomes harder to stay focused on these two points that you are pointing us towards. It's very hard for me to be calm within myself and remind myself of the potential and the possibilities of the situation.TINI: You may not need to offload if you do it regularly. It could just be regular conversations to just check-ins with each other to support, to be a source of support. Talking through, so one of the strategies is just talking through some of the challenges that you have.TINI: A sidebar is that, if you think about one of the buzzwords now is longevity. Not necessarily live longer, but stay healthy in the life that we have. So stay healthy longer. And being in relationship with people, being engaged in communities is one of the ingredients for longevity and wellness. Mental health, the capacity to offload and talk and seek support.TINI: Start to notice your default patterns and break it down. Just take one behavior that you're going to try differently.TINI: One of the things just around breaking down the muscles, breaking it down and treating it like muscles is where it all starts to interlink. Get feedback. Get feedback from, if you have the courage, from the people who have given a lot of feedback about you.TINI: What I love about relationships. I love that it's not a formula. It really requires curating. It really requires empathy. It requires a commitment to initiate something and be clear about what it is that I want to create. And it requires me to go, this is not the relationship that I want to spend my energy on and be willing to walk away.TINI: We all have the autonomy. We all have the power to design the future that's compelling for each of us. And the analogy that I always use is the vision that I have, the work that I do is in line with the vision, which is when all of us or the lucky ones who reach 100 years old or whatever that old age is, when we're on our rocking chairs, that we can look back on our lives and not say, I should have, I could have, I wish I did. But rather to sit on our rocking chairs and look back and go, now that was a frickin' awesome life. REFERENCES & LINKS:TINI’s LinkedIn/Website pageLINKEDINTHE COACH PARTNERSHIPTINI’s Book SuggestionsTHE PURPLE BOOK OF COACHINGThe Human Conversation Podcast ChannelsAPPLE PODCASTSSPOTIFY

Human Conversation with Tini Fadzillah

<h1>Guest: Ashish Sensarma</h1> Ashish Sensarma is a Growth Architect - Apparel, Beauty & FitnessWith over 30 years of experience in the apparel industry, Ashish built and scaled consumer brands across continents-driving growth through branded retailing, multi-channel distribution, and a deep understanding of global consumer aspirations. From launching Mexx’s retail business and expanding it to 300+ stores across Europe, to elevating Vilebrequin into a global leader in luxury swimwear, his journey has been defined by strategic vision, operational excellence, and a passion for brand storytelling.As an Indian-born Dutch national, he brings a multicultural lens to leadership and brand development. His expertise lies in controlled distribution, cross-border expansion, and building high-performance teams that deliver results. Ashish holds a Bachelor of Science in Business Administration (Finance) from Nichols College, and continues to thrive on transforming ideas into global success stories. HIGHLIGHTS/TAKEAWAYS:<ul><li> KG: You've had such an incredible career, a C-suite leader, an entrepreneur, board advisor, investor, just to name a few. Is there a red thread that ties all of this together? Is there a driving force behind all that you do?</li><li>ASHISH: Initially, India gave me a lot of grounding of who I am, especially in terms of my personality and things like that. And then I was really blessed, I would say is the right word. I worked for a company called Mexx. That was the start of my career. And there I met leaders. I listened to them. I observed them. And a lot of what I am today is those early years of foundation.</li><li>ASHISH: As I moved along with life, I learned more things. I got introduced to more people. So it's always been a journey of learning from people. And when you ask me my red thread, 3 things. It's always been for me about brands. I believe that brands have a huge responsibility in the world today. That's one.</li><li>ASHISH: Second is about people. We are in the people's business, this is the people's business. And what ties this all together is for me the culture in which we operate. And when I talk about culture, I talk about working with people who are passionate.</li><li>ASHISH: To answer your question in a concise three words, culture, brands, and people. Without that, I think the world is not very, you don't get very far. So that's the red thread, which has always been my, whatever I'm doing, it's about that. Is this a branded business? Is there a purpose for this brand? How are the people in this business? It's a people's business. And what is the culture that this business is all about?</li><li>KG: What do the terms ethics and integrity mean to you?</li><li>ASHISH: Ethics for me is all about where we come from. The ethics I've been talking about myself as an individual. I learned my ethics from my parents. Those are ethics which I learned. It's the environment of people. There was no thing as right or wrong. It's about understanding what you felt was right and what you felt was wrong.</li><li>ASHISH: Integrity for me is what do you do with all this? What do you do with this? It's this theory that you've learned all your life. How do you put it into practice? And that's a tough call. It's not easy because there's so many forces at play. And as the world is moving forward, as the world evolves, there are more challenges, more discussions, more priorities and it's tough out there.</li><li>ASHISH: Ethics for me is more about theory. It's like a map and integrity is like driving a car. Are you able to do it?</li><li>ASHISH: Integrity is about doing things when nobody's watching. Integrity defines you as a person. It defines your personality. It defines your purpose. It defines you as a brand.</li><li>ASHISH: The world doesn't allow you too many mistakes. So if you do wrong things, the world doesn't remember all the good that you did. The world only remembers all the bad things you did. Integrity is a tough one because you've got to be very consistent.</li><li>KG:  In all of the things you've done, huge organizations you've created and led, have you felt that there was a change in the way you looked at ethics and integrity for yourself as an individual versus when you have your organizational hat on where you now have huge teams, huge numbers of people and organizational needs to worry about too, not just your own ethics and integrity. Were they different for you or did they all feel roughly the same? </li><li>ASHISH: You can make life very complex. You can make life very simple. And I have always said, anytime you are confronted with issues and problems, go back to your culture and to your DNA and you will find the truth in there.</li><li>ASHISH: People accuse me that I talk a lot and I do. And the reason I talk is I love to communicate with people. I love to communicate with my teams. Whenever I've had the opportunity to lead people, lead teams, it's about transparency.</li><li>ASHISH: Ethics and integrity is not about a blame culture. You cannot talk from two sides of your mouth. So if you believe in transparency, you believe in responsibility, you believe that you are there for a particular purpose, do your job, not somebody else's job.</li><li>KG: Consistency in a leader where the leader is very clear about their own values and they're consistent about it. Transparency, honesty, keeping your value system close to your heart in how you operate and ensuring people understand that.</li><li>KG: What are the biggest challenges that business leaders have to grapple with today?</li><li>ASHISH: Everything for me is about branding. Today's leaders are faced with short-term versus long-term. There's so many challenges with short-term priorities.</li><li>ASHISH: Today's leaders are really, I think confronting with that. We hear the word sustainability, we hear the word climate control, we hear the word world's pollution. I would say this dilemma of this constant need for growth, constant need for growth that I need to keep on growing my business.</li><li>ASHISH: It's a lot of it is about creating products which last for a long time. It's about creating products which are transparent in terms of pricing. It's about creating products which are less about creating pollution. But how can we produce less without compromising growth?</li><li>ASHISH: It's about brands which create a country's ethos. If you think about our country where I originally came from, India, brands are about creating those kinds of perception about what a country is all about. It's not about creating. It's about curtailing supply. It's not about continuously supplying all the stuff. Find a way to stop the demand, find a way to it. </li><li>KG: What's your advice to professionals on how to build cultures of integrity in their teams and organizations as they grapple with competing priorities and diverse stakeholders?</li><li>ASHISH: It always starts with the leader. You've got to set the example. So that's the starting point. Do the leaders of the organization or even in the family or even within your friends, do you set the standards for it? Are you the example? You've got to start with that.</li><li>ASHISH: It's about really walking the talk and saying, if this is integrity, what should we be doing? And that is a dialogue, which is not a one-time dialogue. It's a nonstop dialogue, 24-7.</li><li>ASHISH: One point is you're starting with your own leadership. Secondly, I always equate things not to organizations. Organizations for me are like a human being. They evolve. And next one after transparency is you need to have at least traceability and transparency in this. </li><li>ASHISH: What I mean by transparency and traceability is that do companies have a clear role and responsibility defined about what you're supposed to do? What are your do's and don'ts? And I call it the cultural do's and don'ts. That defines you. </li><li>ASHISH: Before we go all gung-ho and start hiring people, think the first thing we need to define is what is our cultural values? Because whoever we're going to bring in is going to come into our family. And that person has got to live the values which we are talking about.</li><li>ASHISH: Let's find the commonality about what drives us. What is it that basically builds this community of people who are focused on doing the right things?</li><li>ASHISH: The one which I have been exposed to again from the next days is something known as, can you reward integrity. </li><li>ASHISH: When I talk about rewarding integrity, it's not about the what or the you know, it's about the how. How do you get there?</li><li>ASHISH: Integrity is all about, there is a purpose in how you do things, but how do you get there is the bigger challenge. And can you do that ethically? Can you do that with real purpose? What I call a clear, it's like taking a thread and you can put the needle through the thread, understanding that origin of DNA of what you are. And if you do that, I guarantee you, you are going to be very truthful to the world and to yourself. </li><li>KG: What excites you these days in terms of the future of the industry?</li><li>ASHISH: This is a million dollar question. Now comes Bob Sheard. He's done work for 250 brands. And he's written a new book called The Brand New Future. He came out and told me, I've always believed about this brand and continent. He is 100 % convinced about it. He talks about Regenerative Branding. What people have not yet experienced is how do brands actually create experiences from their original product. But yes, keep on growing.</li><li>ASHISH: We don't have all the answers yet, believe me, but the more I talk to him, the more I discuss with him. And he also is evolving as he moves and he talks to people. So we are in a very live example of doing something which we both are quite passionate about. </li><li>KG: Do you have a quote, a book, or advice that you'd like to share for people who are looking up to you?</li><li>ASHISH: I have read a book every few years. It's called Ikigai. Ikigai for people who might not be aware of it is a Japanese philosophy of how to live more happier and more healthier. It's an amalgamation of things what the world needs, what you're good at or you're passionate about, and what you should earn. But the starting point of the whole thing is that you need to find your reason to be.</li><li>ASHISH: A quote which has driven me for many years, it was a quote by Martin Luther King. The quote says that even when you have an idea, even though the staircase is not clear, follow it. Follow it. Go with the path even though the whole journey is not clear. But if you believe in something, make the first step. Don't wait. If you have that feeling the universe will work with you to make things happen, even though you see half the staircase. </li><li>ASHISH: Failures are part of human life. It's like a heartbeat. It goes up and down and up and down. If it's a straight line, you might as well be dead.</li><li>KG: Do you have any tips on how to become resilient? In such a situation, a professional is feeling devastated and so worried for everybody who will also perhaps reap the bad consequences of something that didn't succeed. How can they bounce forward the way you're describing? </li><li>ASHISH: Everybody's got two arms and two legs. Forget the skin color and the racial diversity. What is common is the mind. Your mind can make you a hero or a zero. Keep your mind, believe in yourself, but go back to your mind and go back to your value system. That is going to be your guiding force, your North Star. Believe in that and the world will conspire to make it happen. </li><li>ASHISH: Go back to your value systems. It's all about your value system. What do you believe in? And if things are not going correct with your value systems, don't try and change it. It's not going to work. Things should happen naturally. Don't try and be hard on yourself. Just step back and say it didn't work. There's much more to life. You've got to get 10,000 feet. Ego may not drive you because people hate to accept that they are failed, but you got to be culturally powerful. </li><li>ASHISH: Faith is taking the first step, even when the entire staircase is not clear.</li></ul>  REFERENCES OR LINKS TO SHARE:● ASHISH’s LinkedIN/Website page<a href="https://www.linkedin.com/in/ashish-sensarma-34172a6/" rel="noopener noreferrer" target="_blank" style="color: rgb(17, 85, 204);">LINKEDIN</a>● ASHISH’s Book Suggestions<a href="https://www.amazon.com/Brand-New-Future-brands-world/dp/1917391285" rel="noopener noreferrer" target="_blank" style="color: rgb(17, 85, 204);">THE BRAND NEW FUTURE</a><a href="https://www.amazon.com/Ikigai-Japanese-Secret-Long-Happy/dp/0143130722" rel="noopener noreferrer" target="_blank" style="color: rgb(17, 85, 204);">IKIGAI</a>● The Human Conversation Podcast Channels<a href="https://podcasts.apple.com/us/podcast/the-human-conversation-podcast-on-leadership-and-ethics/id1736302989" rel="noopener noreferrer" target="_blank" style="color: rgb(17, 85, 204);">APPLE PODCASTS</a><a href="https://open.spotify.com/show/2DLMqNqgKZTKyB8zcw5MF0?si=a5c9d1e15b6e4ac3" rel="noopener noreferrer" target="_blank" style="color: rgb(17, 85, 204);">SPOTIFY</a>

Guest: Ashish Sensarma Ashish Sensarma is a Growth Architect - Apparel, Beauty & FitnessWith over 30 years of experience in the apparel industry, Ashish built and scaled consumer brands across continents-driving growth through branded retailing, multi-channel distribution, and a deep understanding of global consumer aspirations. From launching Mexx’s retail business and expanding it to 300+ stores across Europe, to elevating Vilebrequin into a global leader in luxury swimwear, his journey has been defined by strategic vision, operational excellence, and a passion for brand storytelling.As an Indian-born Dutch national, he brings a multicultural lens to leadership and brand development. His expertise lies in controlled distribution, cross-border expansion, and building high-performance teams that deliver results. Ashish holds a Bachelor of Science in Business Administration (Finance) from Nichols College, and continues to thrive on transforming ideas into global success stories. HIGHLIGHTS/TAKEAWAYS: KG: You've had such an incredible career, a C-suite leader, an entrepreneur, board advisor, investor, just to name a few. Is there a red thread that ties all of this together? Is there a driving force behind all that you do?ASHISH: Initially, India gave me a lot of grounding of who I am, especially in terms of my personality and things like that. And then I was really blessed, I would say is the right word. I worked for a company called Mexx. That was the start of my career. And there I met leaders. I listened to them. I observed them. And a lot of what I am today is those early years of foundation.ASHISH: As I moved along with life, I learned more things. I got introduced to more people. So it's always been a journey of learning from people. And when you ask me my red thread, 3 things. It's always been for me about brands. I believe that brands have a huge responsibility in the world today. That's one.ASHISH: Second is about people. We are in the people's business, this is the people's business. And what ties this all together is for me the culture in which we operate. And when I talk about culture, I talk about working with people who are passionate.ASHISH: To answer your question in a concise three words, culture, brands, and people. Without that, I think the world is not very, you don't get very far. So that's the red thread, which has always been my, whatever I'm doing, it's about that. Is this a branded business? Is there a purpose for this brand? How are the people in this business? It's a people's business. And what is the culture that this business is all about?KG: What do the terms ethics and integrity mean to you?ASHISH: Ethics for me is all about where we come from. The ethics I've been talking about myself as an individual. I learned my ethics from my parents. Those are ethics which I learned. It's the environment of people. There was no thing as right or wrong. It's about understanding what you felt was right and what you felt was wrong.ASHISH: Integrity for me is what do you do with all this? What do you do with this? It's this theory that you've learned all your life. How do you put it into practice? And that's a tough call. It's not easy because there's so many forces at play. And as the world is moving forward, as the world evolves, there are more challenges, more discussions, more priorities and it's tough out there.ASHISH: Ethics for me is more about theory. It's like a map and integrity is like driving a car. Are you able to do it?ASHISH: Integrity is about doing things when nobody's watching. Integrity defines you as a person. It defines your personality. It defines your purpose. It defines you as a brand.ASHISH: The world doesn't allow you too many mistakes. So if you do wrong things, the world doesn't remember all the good that you did. The world only remembers all the bad things you did. Integrity is a tough one because you've got to be very consistent.KG:  In all of the things you've done, huge organizations you've created and led, have you felt that there was a change in the way you looked at ethics and integrity for yourself as an individual versus when you have your organizational hat on where you now have huge teams, huge numbers of people and organizational needs to worry about too, not just your own ethics and integrity. Were they different for you or did they all feel roughly the same? ASHISH: You can make life very complex. You can make life very simple. And I have always said, anytime you are confronted with issues and problems, go back to your culture and to your DNA and you will find the truth in there.ASHISH: People accuse me that I talk a lot and I do. And the reason I talk is I love to communicate with people. I love to communicate with my teams. Whenever I've had the opportunity to lead people, lead teams, it's about transparency.ASHISH: Ethics and integrity is not about a blame culture. You cannot talk from two sides of your mouth. So if you believe in transparency, you believe in responsibility, you believe that you are there for a particular purpose, do your job, not somebody else's job.KG: Consistency in a leader where the leader is very clear about their own values and they're consistent about it. Transparency, honesty, keeping your value system close to your heart in how you operate and ensuring people understand that.KG: What are the biggest challenges that business leaders have to grapple with today?ASHISH: Everything for me is about branding. Today's leaders are faced with short-term versus long-term. There's so many challenges with short-term priorities.ASHISH: Today's leaders are really, I think confronting with that. We hear the word sustainability, we hear the word climate control, we hear the word world's pollution. I would say this dilemma of this constant need for growth, constant need for growth that I need to keep on growing my business.ASHISH: It's a lot of it is about creating products which last for a long time. It's about creating products which are transparent in terms of pricing. It's about creating products which are less about creating pollution. But how can we produce less without compromising growth?ASHISH: It's about brands which create a country's ethos. If you think about our country where I originally came from, India, brands are about creating those kinds of perception about what a country is all about. It's not about creating. It's about curtailing supply. It's not about continuously supplying all the stuff. Find a way to stop the demand, find a way to it. KG: What's your advice to professionals on how to build cultures of integrity in their teams and organizations as they grapple with competing priorities and diverse stakeholders?ASHISH: It always starts with the leader. You've got to set the example. So that's the starting point. Do the leaders of the organization or even in the family or even within your friends, do you set the standards for it? Are you the example? You've got to start with that.ASHISH: It's about really walking the talk and saying, if this is integrity, what should we be doing? And that is a dialogue, which is not a one-time dialogue. It's a nonstop dialogue, 24-7.ASHISH: One point is you're starting with your own leadership. Secondly, I always equate things not to organizations. Organizations for me are like a human being. They evolve. And next one after transparency is you need to have at least traceability and transparency in this. ASHISH: What I mean by transparency and traceability is that do companies have a clear role and responsibility defined about what you're supposed to do? What are your do's and don'ts? And I call it the cultural do's and don'ts. That defines you. ASHISH: Before we go all gung-ho and start hiring people, think the first thing we need to define is what is our cultural values? Because whoever we're going to bring in is going to come into our family. And that person has got to live the values which we are talking about.ASHISH: Let's find the commonality about what drives us. What is it that basically builds this community of people who are focused on doing the right things?ASHISH: The one which I have been exposed to again from the next days is something known as, can you reward integrity. ASHISH: When I talk about rewarding integrity, it's not about the what or the you know, it's about the how. How do you get there?ASHISH: Integrity is all about, there is a purpose in how you do things, but how do you get there is the bigger challenge. And can you do that ethically? Can you do that with real purpose? What I call a clear, it's like taking a thread and you can put the needle through the thread, understanding that origin of DNA of what you are. And if you do that, I guarantee you, you are going to be very truthful to the world and to yourself. KG: What excites you these days in terms of the future of the industry?ASHISH: This is a million dollar question. Now comes Bob Sheard. He's done work for 250 brands. And he's written a new book called The Brand New Future. He came out and told me, I've always believed about this brand and continent. He is 100 % convinced about it. He talks about Regenerative Branding. What people have not yet experienced is how do brands actually create experiences from their original product. But yes, keep on growing.ASHISH: We don't have all the answers yet, believe me, but the more I talk to him, the more I discuss with him. And he also is evolving as he moves and he talks to people. So we are in a very live example of doing something which we both are quite passionate about. KG: Do you have a quote, a book, or advice that you'd like to share for people who are looking up to you?ASHISH: I have read a book every few years. It's called Ikigai. Ikigai for people who might not be aware of it is a Japanese philosophy of how to live more happier and more healthier. It's an amalgamation of things what the world needs, what you're good at or you're passionate about, and what you should earn. But the starting point of the whole thing is that you need to find your reason to be.ASHISH: A quote which has driven me for many years, it was a quote by Martin Luther King. The quote says that even when you have an idea, even though the staircase is not clear, follow it. Follow it. Go with the path even though the whole journey is not clear. But if you believe in something, make the first step. Don't wait. If you have that feeling the universe will work with you to make things happen, even though you see half the staircase. ASHISH: Failures are part of human life. It's like a heartbeat. It goes up and down and up and down. If it's a straight line, you might as well be dead.KG: Do you have any tips on how to become resilient? In such a situation, a professional is feeling devastated and so worried for everybody who will also perhaps reap the bad consequences of something that didn't succeed. How can they bounce forward the way you're describing? ASHISH: Everybody's got two arms and two legs. Forget the skin color and the racial diversity. What is common is the mind. Your mind can make you a hero or a zero. Keep your mind, believe in yourself, but go back to your mind and go back to your value system. That is going to be your guiding force, your North Star. Believe in that and the world will conspire to make it happen. ASHISH: Go back to your value systems. It's all about your value system. What do you believe in? And if things are not going correct with your value systems, don't try and change it. It's not going to work. Things should happen naturally. Don't try and be hard on yourself. Just step back and say it didn't work. There's much more to life. You've got to get 10,000 feet. Ego may not drive you because people hate to accept that they are failed, but you got to be culturally powerful. ASHISH: Faith is taking the first step, even when the entire staircase is not clear.  REFERENCES OR LINKS TO SHARE:● ASHISH’s LinkedIN/Website pageLINKEDIN● ASHISH’s Book SuggestionsTHE BRAND NEW FUTUREIKIGAI● The Human Conversation Podcast ChannelsAPPLE PODCASTSSPOTIFY

The Human Conversation with Ashish Sensarma

Guest: Marion MulderBringing her experience in both technology driven innovation and social system change to create desired futures for purpose driven organizations.As a “Co-Thinker” Marion helps organizations become Future-Proof by co-creating inclusive and sustainable futures. Every organization faces the three major waves: digitalization (AI), sustainability, and social impact. Using methodologies such as strategic foresight, scenario planning, systems thinking, systems innovation, design thinking, futures thinking, and agile/SAFe, we collaborate on a transformation towards a more purpose-driven, desired future.With roots in digital technology since 1998 and driven by a passion for strategy and innovation, she enjoys working together on solutions the world needs.As a Futurist, she delves into future possibilities, crafting scenarios for both potential and desired outcomes.Dedicated to being a FutureMaker, she transforms ideas into actions, focusing on setting agendas and catalyzing change to create a more equitable and just world. From emerging technology projects to board positions with impact-driven organizations, my mission is clear. HIGHLIGHTS & TAKEAWAYS:KG: You've had such an interesting career, technology, conscious innovation, the future of work, advocacy, mentoring, speaking worldwide. Is there a red thread that ties all of it together for you? What was the driving force behind all that you do?MARION: You kind of only know that when you sort of look back, right? So I was kind of looking at one point, what is the right thread through my career? And for the longest part, it was digitalization.MARION: I have a book here, it's about the future makers or futurism. And it turns out I'm an explorer or a map maker. An explorer means someone is just going into the unknown path and a map maker, someone who then is while you're walking, might as well draw the map for the people who follow me. And I think that's kind of what I've done. And for the longest time, it's been digital.MARION: I've started following people through the world, some of the AI, we're on stage, we've been doing AI ethics for 20 years. They really were knowledgeable and were talking about responsible AI before the rest of us would know what AI was. And that really was helpful to see that. And that actually also made me see the bias in the technology, but also that it's a reflection of society, especially when you talk about AI now. And of course, society has its flaws. But when you start putting that in technology, it's basically starting to get carved in stone. And it's going to be harder to get it out there. So that's where I became an advocate of conscious innovation. So once you start doing innovation, let's be conscious about what's happening and how this is treating people. It's a great opportunity, but also you have to think about, know, who's benefiting, but also has been hard with this by accident.MARION: The majority of us use technology because we think we're improving the world. And then for some of us, then it becomes a worse place to be in. And that's something we need to be mindful of.MARION: I think my actual view for ethics, besides the fact that I'm a woman, and you know, the world's built for men. I've got this great book standing here called Invisible Women. It's a really good one to explain, you know, clearly the world's built for men by men, and we also live in this world.MARION: Wouldn't it be great if we could just be ourselves at work? And that was what everybody else wants, right? But for us, it's not a given. These countries in the world where you have to hide yourself or if you tell about you know, who you love, that's actually that could actually be grounds for firing you. You have to hide parts of yourself. So that was like, getting my attention from an ethical point of view about, is this really helping everyone and who are we leaving behind? Who are the vulnerable ones?MARION: I have a coach and she said to me, you need to get from knowledge to wisdom. I was like, what does that mean? But I've come to the conclusion, knowledge is much more about thinking you have to have the solutions. And I've been very big on creating solutions. That was like my skill set is like, coming up with solutions. Wisdom is much more about asking questions. So not having answers was asking questions and it's just a different modus.MARION:  I believe in more women on stage, but also I thought, I like doing those things. I like to be on stage. Just said yes and then figured out, so what does this exactly entail? And sometimes I'm gonna get myself into things, why did I say yes to this? But then, you get through it and that are the best stories and the best memories.KG:  Can you share with us what these terms, ethics and integrity mean to you and how you use that sense of what ethics means to you in some of these new sunrise domains that you've been involved?MARION: I think it's about, does it come from the heart? Just let your heart speak. And I'm getting more and more, so consciousness of course also means the way in. And if you're not very conscious, then you know, your ego takes over, but you're also not very prone to what effects are on other people. It is about this gut feeling where, if something tells you it's off, it probably is. And then figuring out, can I figure out what is off by maybe just drilling that down in my mind.MARION: My two ethical questions, is just because we can, should we? And that's kind of, I think, a gut feeling going, maybe this is not the best idea. And you can also just sort of wonder then, so what could possibly go wrong? And that's usually examples from other similar things about, we don't want to be like them. And the other thing is, how is this helping humankind or the planet of the world in a sustainable way? And if we can't answer these questions, then that's a really big red flag.MARION: From an AI point of view, there are two frameworks I work with. One is called the Impact Assessments, Fundamental Rights and Algorithms. And from an AI point of view, it starts with why, so why are we building this? And then, the what are we building? And what kind of data is necessary for that? And then the last question is about human rights, or fundamental fundamental rights. And that there's a list in that document of fundamental rights. The point of this one is not so much filling out the form, but having a conversation with multiple people, and preferably a diverse group of people. So having someone who represents the user. And that could also be like someone internally, but also the affected.MARION: Just because you can should be, that's really your internal guide, your intuition going, if your stomach turns when you see something, listen to it. And how is humanity, how's the world getting a better place because of this?KG: The most powerful formulas or checklists for us are often the ones that are most intuitive and simple. You're asking questions, as you said, that should be questions zero.MARION: This is also about design thinking, what problem are we solving? And who are we solving it for? And part of it is, is the value proposition, what pains and gains are there? And that's the other tasks of people and you whether they're, what are they like? So what are the dislikes about, how that is done? That's where we want to create a product that is actually solving a problem. And you don't want to create a product that creates additional problems.MARION: You're doing it for them, not for yourself. But then it comes back again from the heart, which means involving others and doing it for that versus your own ego and need for validation yourself.KG: One of my favorite examples that I've heard you share in a panel in the past is that I've seen you talk about searching for an image and the effort of the algorithm to be representative and how it can all go wrong. Would you like to talk about that example?MARION: They're like all sorts of different ethnic backgrounds, but also they have had all sorts of different ones and they just went too far with, too diverse as in, we've got one of every flavor. I just asked for a group of friends and you're just giving me bias girls, but then in different sort of clothings and all super skinny. And this is not representative, but that's when we need my bias correction.MARION: How do we get this right? And that's a really interesting point because my right is probably different than your right because we have different lived experiences. Our expectations are different than what we're supposed to see. But it comes back again to whoever developed this product and when they were testing, I was wondering how diverse was the group of testers there that they didn't see this a first time round, or they thought it was acceptable to ship the product when it was clearly not showing a really good reflection of society, just one very specific view on society.KG: Was there a time when you yourself perhaps faced the temptation that they were competing priorities, perhaps as an entrepreneur founder yourself, or you were an advocate expert, subject matter expert helping a client and on one hand there was profitability and first more advantage on the other this is question zero that you raise should you do it simply because you can. Did you ever face that example and could you share it?MARION: When you have to talk about diversity or when you start talking about organizations, we have to talk about business cases. And it's like, I am valid only when I'm a business case, when you can make money off me is that really, that didn't sit right with me. I was actually actively advocating for it internally because we needed to get more diversity and we needed to get the money for it to get it all done. So I had to figure out for myself a way to navigate that. I could step out of it, but then I couldn't reach anything. I also realized that we were talking the language of the group we wanted to convince. So to get them on board, you need to speak their language first. And once they're on board, you can start having these other conversations.MARION: Even if you're the only one in a certain situation, there's always a lot of you somewhere else. You just have to find where your tribe is.KG: Advocate burnout is a very real thing. And that sense of solitude and aloneness is also a very real thing. We evolve and fit ourselves to where we need to be at, where it's advantages for us professionally or it's intellectually stimulating, but also stay connected to what nourishes us. And it's okay to traverse those worlds and be more than one thing.KG: For those early career or mid-career professionals, do you have any observations around ethical dilemmas most relevant today? And what would your advice be to them? In tackling such things, new things might come up that they don't know anything about, don't know how to handle it. Any advice for them?MARION: I think one thing is if your gut says it's wrong, it probably is. It's interesting to see if you can find people who can help you, but you can also find other people to sort of have a conversation to figure out why you have this sense.MARION: The one that bubbled up yet today is digital colonialism. One particular culture takes over and we still have the remnants of that in our daily lives.MARION: If we're not careful, this big tech, it's not just the big tech oligarchy thing. It's also coming with this value. And it's basically wiping out culture, because it's so dominant and we all use the same base.MARION: If AI is a reflection of society, a reflection of what specific society are we talking about? How do we make sure that this beauty of all of our different cultures remains because there's value in it? There's a lot of things that we have all the same. We all have to go, if you go to a conscious level, there's a lot of the things, no matter what culture you're from, that are all the same. But there's these different nuances and how we speak and which language we use and how these languages translate into concepts that we need to make sure isn't a one size fits all.KG: I was fascinated by this recent example at UVA, where a student sued the university because they use facial recognition technology for exam taking. And this student happened to be a dark skinned person. The software did not recognize them. And they lost the ability to take the test. And they said, this is exclusionary. And the university's argument was, they are not the perpetrators of the crime here. They simply paid for software that was used worldwide by many other organizations, many other domains. And so the legal question for me was, so who is the offender here? I'd love for you to throw any light.MARION: I think it's helpful to start thinking of this offer like if it was a car, right? If you buy a car, you do expect a certain thing, the basic that is in there. If there are no brakes in the car and you get in an accident, it's the producer of the car that's very liable. But if you're driving in that car and you hit something, that's not the car's responsibility. That was you driving it. And then, you're liable for that particular damage. I think that's kind of how I would see this particular thing as well.KG: What is something that is inspiring you these days? Is there a quote or a book or perhaps advice that you came across that's made you say, wow, I love this?MARION: I like Braiding Sweetgrass by Robin Wall Kimmerer. And that is about someone who marriages science with indigenous wisdom. And it's things like that I think we need to look for. Something I'm going to be reading soon is about quantum and consciousness (Irreducible by Federico Faggin). But that's like if you're a bit further advanced in this whole concept of consciousness and technology and science. But you also want to get into consciousness and you're like Deepak Chopra. It's called Digital Dharma that's in and he's actively pitching it everywhere.KG: What are the passion topics you're currently excited to talk about?MARION: I give presentations on responsible, inclusive AI. I'm coming to give you something, that's kind of that space is how can we, we want something with AI, we want a strategy for AI, we want to figure out how this is going to help our company. We do want to do this in a humane way. It's not about replacing people, but it's about how are we using technology to advance ourselves as an organization and our people and making sure we get the balance right. If it's about giving me stuff, I'm really interested in consciousness and the combination of quantum and consciousness. And the topic I'm exploring for myself, I'm still figuring out what it means is called augmented consciousness.REFERENCES & LINKS:MARION’s LinkedIN/Website pageLINKEDINMARION MULDERMARION’s Book SuggestionsTHE FUTURE MAKERSINVISIBLE WOMENBRAIDING SWEETGRASSIRREDUCIBLEDIGITAL DHARMAThe Human Conversation Podcast ChannelsAPPLE PODCASTSSPOTIFY

The Human Conversation with Marion Mulder

<h1>Guest: Geoffrey van der Ven</h1> Geoffrey van der Ven is a spoken word artist and theater maker known for his sharp, critical, and activist voice, particularly within the queer and BIPOC communities. He often focuses on bringing unheard stories to the forefront, especially those related to queer history and identity. He is recognized for his solo performance "Het is niet nieuw" ("It is not new"), which explores the queer history of Africa, and is currently working on a new show called "What's the Difference," which delves into queer shame.Geoffrey has received accolades such as the Poet of the Year award at the Queer & Feminist Poetry Awards and an honorable mention at Button Poetry. He has performed at major venues and events like the Nieuwe Luxor Theater, Rotterdam Pride, and the Amsterdam Fringe Festival.  <h3>HIGHLIGHTS & TAKEAWAYS:</h3><ul><li>KG: You have such an interesting career in product management. You also handle innovation and strategy consulting. You also are a huge advocate and a spoken artist and a speaker, just the name of you. Is there a red thread that ties all of these activities for you? What's the driving force behind all that you do?</li><li>GEOFFREY: What I actually do at every company that I've ever worked at is I look at what we do, whether that's the systems that we use internally or the systems that we provide to our clients or users. And I see where it does and it doesn't work for the people that are using it. And then I take action because I get really itchy when I see something that doesn't work. Well, we can probably fix this so that I, come up with an idea. We test it and we fix it and we make it better.</li><li>GEOFFREY: I think that human aspect is what seeps through also on the artist side of the story. I think that personal, human, there's always, the human, people are gonna be like, there's humans everywhere, but there's always the human thing, the human aspect of it, the human story, whether that's your own story or the story of your clients, that's always present.</li><li>KG: What do the terms ethics and integrity mean to you?</li><li>GEOFFREY: Integrity because I think that's the easiest one to carry. Do what is right. Not what's easy or what comes the fastest. Just do the right thing. Do the right thing with that responsibility. Come up for voices that don't have that stage. It's gonna sound very holier than thou, but speak to the greater good. Use your story in the right way and then be aware of the dynamics that are at play and of the space that you take and the space that someone you maybe shouldn't take or should pass over to someone else.</li><li>GEOFFREY:  There's moments where you might have two user groups that have conflicting needs, or where despite all the right intentions, you have a line in a poem that does hurt someone or offend someone. I think that we need to get rid of that idea that there's no ambivalence in this. There can be multiple things that occur at the same time. But then again, I think it comes down to how you then deal with those situations.</li><li>KG: Is there an example that you feel comfortable sharing where you navigate an ethical dilemma? And then maybe you can share what you learned from it in how to deal with these difficult conversations?</li><li>GEOFFREY: I think that when it comes down to staying aligned with your values, that's easier for me to speak on.</li><li>KG: Is there a blueprint in your mind where it's almost like an algorithm and that's how you find it fairly straightforward because that's consistent in everything you've said so far that in your mind it's a straightforward thing. Did you work on it to make it straightforward to unravel how we tend to over complicate things and worry? How did you get here?</li><li>GEOFFREY: I am almost to a fault solution oriented as a person. And that's great and like 90 % of the time until I run into a problem that I cannot solve and then I crash. I think for me, after a while, I started working somewhere where I had a lot of agency, where I had a boss that went, or a line manager that said, do what you think is right, and if it's wrong, learn from it. Which was amazing, because for once I could see these innovation projects and these product management issues and go, this is what I think we should do. 90 % of what I think we should do is talk to the users. And not talking to the users is never an answer for me.</li><li>GEOFFREY: Convincing people that you're right never works. Or sometimes it works, but then you win the argument and you lose the working relationship. It is worth convincing them that it's a path worth exploring.</li><li>I think that honesty, that human side of the story, your own human side of the story, your willingness to take responsibility and admit that maybe you're not perfect and that if you're wrong, you will let them know that you're wrong. We miss that sometimes. But it aligns with a part of me about being open. And that part of me, that value of being open is what I carry through. The more that you start being honest and open about all aspects of your life, you also get to be honest and open in your work itself. And that starts, then things fall into place.</li><li>KG: It sounds to me like what you're saying is one, it's actually quite straightforward to do the right thing. Keep in mind that it's the stakeholders who matter the most. If that's clear in your mind, sense of purpose, goal orientation, that's number one. Number two is to yourself be open, because if you're clear on what your goals are, you stay open and grounded and pragmatic about solution orientation. And number three, you seem to be saying is clarity in communication.</li><li>KG: Is there anything you'd add to this list or anything that I've missed that you've shared already that would help early-career, mid-career product managers to successfully persuade people to follow their advice because you work with so many clients and organizations?</li><li>GEOFFREY: Sit in the other people's chairs. I think everyone on any team can agree that as a company you have customers. And that as a company you want to make those customers happy, and you most likely want to get more customers. So whether you agree with me or not, we can agree on this. It's a shared value between yourself and your stakeholders. Keep whatever discussion you're having focused on that. It's not about me and it's not about you- keep it focused on that. And then look at that goal through the eyes of the people around you.</li><li>GEOFFREY: I always, always, always have a problem backlog. It is a list of all issues that we know our customers experience with the product, of all problems that our customers have. Prioritized according to how many customers experience that problem and how frequently they experience that problem.</li><li>GEOFFREY: We all agree, happy customers, more customers. So how do we make them happy? Solve these problems. Those are two things I want to add to that is empathy and prioritize the problems.</li><li>KG:  Do you have any perspectives to share in terms of ethics and integrity? Customer orientation or user orientation in terms of responsible innovation or the future of this sector field?</li><li>GEOFFREY: There will always be people that we're trying to make happy with our products, which means that you will always need an advocate for those people within companies to make sure that you're building your right product.</li><li>GEOFFREY: I think in ethics, you end up in the same tale of just listen to your users. Learn to admit and see that everyone makes mistakes and everything can be wrong and consider the fact that you're working with people.</li><li>KG: As a tech aficionado and perhaps a subject matter expert as well, are there examples in the public domain where you've observed companies or products are doing what you're recommending here?</li><li>GEOFFREY: There was recently a company that I saw literally do this and it made me so happy. Cool Blue does this quite well. They have a really fun personality as a company. I think they do admit it when they're wrong. But mostly they go about everything with a sense of humor. I think another company that does this quite interestingly is The Nothing Phone. Their CEO literally on YouTube, like he records himself live watching reviews and responds to these reviews. And in some places he gives context for choices which I like because it's context for choice. So he's not excusing a problem or an issue. He's going, these are the constraints and these were the choices made based on those constraints, hence indeed this issue.</li><li>GEOFFREY: I've had this as a product manager where you see a massive problem with your product and you don't have the resources to solve it within a week and you're like, it's big problem, but just being able to go to a customer, I'm gonna put in my best effort and attempt to help you. That already changes the interaction that you're having because it goes from the experience of you working against them and making their life harder for something that should be simpler to, okay, let me see if I can stand on your side of the story and help you. And even if I can't help you, maybe relieve some of your frustration.</li><li>GEOFFREY: Every time I work with a development team, I need and want them to be able to read the interviews with the customers and to understand the customer's problem. First of all, you end up with creative solutions that anybody else on the team would have never thought of. And second of all, aligns them on the mission.</li><li>GEOFFREY: The more empathy you have within your company towards the users that you're trying to solve problems for, the better that solution ends up being and the more motivated people end up being.</li><li>KG: Is there a book, a quote, or any advice that you hold close to your heart right now and you'd like to share?</li><li>GEOFFREY: I'm currently writing a theater show about shame. And to write that show, do research and part of the research was reading a book called Velvet Rage. This research on shame, it's incredible because you realize that it's present in so many layers of society and there's so many examples that you see and so many responses that people have to things.</li><li>GEOFFREY: I think that we don't talk about shame, which is one of the mechanisms of shame is that we hide and we don't talk about it. And because we talk about it so little, it's not on our empathy radar. We very rarely go, what if they're ashamed? And that's why this is the response. And not talking about shame keeps shame intact. So that's a silence that I think we need to collectively break in order to make working together easier, in order to help you understand the world, in order to make makes life easier to have that extra little insight into this one emotion that we kind of keep aside and even when we do talk about shame we very frequently incorrectly define it so then we're still mischaracterizing it.</li></ul> <h3>REFERENCES & LINKS:</h3>GEOFFREY’s LinkedIN/Website page<a href="https://www.linkedin.com/in/geoffreyven/" rel="noopener noreferrer" target="_blank" style="color: rgb(110, 119, 110);">LINKEDIN</a><a href="https://www.geeven.me/" rel="noopener noreferrer" target="_blank" style="color: rgb(110, 119, 110);">Geoffrey van der Ven</a> GEOFFREY’s Book/Suggested Article<a href="https://www.amazon.com/Velvet-Rage-Overcoming-Growing-Straight/dp/1611746450" rel="noopener noreferrer" target="_blank" style="color: rgb(110, 119, 110);">VELVET RAGE by ALAN DOWNS</a> The Human Conversation Podcast Channels<a href="https://podcasts.apple.com/us/podcast/the-human-conversation-podcast-on-leadership-and-ethics/id1736302989" rel="noopener noreferrer" target="_blank">APPLE PODCASTS</a><a href="https://open.spotify.com/show/2DLMqNqgKZTKyB8zcw5MF0?si=a5c9d1e15b6e4ac3" rel="noopener noreferrer" target="_blank">SPOTIFY</a>

Guest: Geoffrey van der VenGeoffrey van der Ven is a spoken word artist and theater maker known for his sharp, critical, and activist voice, particularly within the queer and BIPOC communities. He often focuses on bringing unheard stories to the forefront, especially those related to queer history and identity. He is recognized for his solo performance "Het is niet nieuw" ("It is not new"), which explores the queer history of Africa, and is currently working on a new show called "What's the Difference," which delves into queer shame.Geoffrey has received accolades such as the Poet of the Year award at the Queer & Feminist Poetry Awards and an honorable mention at Button Poetry. He has performed at major venues and events like the Nieuwe Luxor Theater, Rotterdam Pride, and the Amsterdam Fringe Festival. HIGHLIGHTS & TAKEAWAYS:KG: You have such an interesting career in product management. You also handle innovation and strategy consulting. You also are a huge advocate and a spoken artist and a speaker, just the name of you. Is there a red thread that ties all of these activities for you? What's the driving force behind all that you do?GEOFFREY: What I actually do at every company that I've ever worked at is I look at what we do, whether that's the systems that we use internally or the systems that we provide to our clients or users. And I see where it does and it doesn't work for the people that are using it. And then I take action because I get really itchy when I see something that doesn't work. Well, we can probably fix this so that I, come up with an idea. We test it and we fix it and we make it better.GEOFFREY: I think that human aspect is what seeps through also on the artist side of the story. I think that personal, human, there's always, the human, people are gonna be like, there's humans everywhere, but there's always the human thing, the human aspect of it, the human story, whether that's your own story or the story of your clients, that's always present.KG: What do the terms ethics and integrity mean to you?GEOFFREY: Integrity because I think that's the easiest one to carry. Do what is right. Not what's easy or what comes the fastest. Just do the right thing. Do the right thing with that responsibility. Come up for voices that don't have that stage. It's gonna sound very holier than thou, but speak to the greater good. Use your story in the right way and then be aware of the dynamics that are at play and of the space that you take and the space that someone you maybe shouldn't take or should pass over to someone else.GEOFFREY:  There's moments where you might have two user groups that have conflicting needs, or where despite all the right intentions, you have a line in a poem that does hurt someone or offend someone. I think that we need to get rid of that idea that there's no ambivalence in this. There can be multiple things that occur at the same time. But then again, I think it comes down to how you then deal with those situations.KG: Is there an example that you feel comfortable sharing where you navigate an ethical dilemma? And then maybe you can share what you learned from it in how to deal with these difficult conversations?GEOFFREY: I think that when it comes down to staying aligned with your values, that's easier for me to speak on.KG: Is there a blueprint in your mind where it's almost like an algorithm and that's how you find it fairly straightforward because that's consistent in everything you've said so far that in your mind it's a straightforward thing. Did you work on it to make it straightforward to unravel how we tend to over complicate things and worry? How did you get here?GEOFFREY: I am almost to a fault solution oriented as a person. And that's great and like 90 % of the time until I run into a problem that I cannot solve and then I crash. I think for me, after a while, I started working somewhere where I had a lot of agency, where I had a boss that went, or a line manager that said, do what you think is right, and if it's wrong, learn from it. Which was amazing, because for once I could see these innovation projects and these product management issues and go, this is what I think we should do. 90 % of what I think we should do is talk to the users. And not talking to the users is never an answer for me.GEOFFREY: Convincing people that you're right never works. Or sometimes it works, but then you win the argument and you lose the working relationship. It is worth convincing them that it's a path worth exploring.I think that honesty, that human side of the story, your own human side of the story, your willingness to take responsibility and admit that maybe you're not perfect and that if you're wrong, you will let them know that you're wrong. We miss that sometimes. But it aligns with a part of me about being open. And that part of me, that value of being open is what I carry through. The more that you start being honest and open about all aspects of your life, you also get to be honest and open in your work itself. And that starts, then things fall into place.KG: It sounds to me like what you're saying is one, it's actually quite straightforward to do the right thing. Keep in mind that it's the stakeholders who matter the most. If that's clear in your mind, sense of purpose, goal orientation, that's number one. Number two is to yourself be open, because if you're clear on what your goals are, you stay open and grounded and pragmatic about solution orientation. And number three, you seem to be saying is clarity in communication.KG: Is there anything you'd add to this list or anything that I've missed that you've shared already that would help early-career, mid-career product managers to successfully persuade people to follow their advice because you work with so many clients and organizations?GEOFFREY: Sit in the other people's chairs. I think everyone on any team can agree that as a company you have customers. And that as a company you want to make those customers happy, and you most likely want to get more customers. So whether you agree with me or not, we can agree on this. It's a shared value between yourself and your stakeholders. Keep whatever discussion you're having focused on that. It's not about me and it's not about you- keep it focused on that. And then look at that goal through the eyes of the people around you.GEOFFREY: I always, always, always have a problem backlog. It is a list of all issues that we know our customers experience with the product, of all problems that our customers have. Prioritized according to how many customers experience that problem and how frequently they experience that problem.GEOFFREY: We all agree, happy customers, more customers. So how do we make them happy? Solve these problems. Those are two things I want to add to that is empathy and prioritize the problems.KG:  Do you have any perspectives to share in terms of ethics and integrity? Customer orientation or user orientation in terms of responsible innovation or the future of this sector field?GEOFFREY: There will always be people that we're trying to make happy with our products, which means that you will always need an advocate for those people within companies to make sure that you're building your right product.GEOFFREY: I think in ethics, you end up in the same tale of just listen to your users. Learn to admit and see that everyone makes mistakes and everything can be wrong and consider the fact that you're working with people.KG: As a tech aficionado and perhaps a subject matter expert as well, are there examples in the public domain where you've observed companies or products are doing what you're recommending here?GEOFFREY: There was recently a company that I saw literally do this and it made me so happy. Cool Blue does this quite well. They have a really fun personality as a company. I think they do admit it when they're wrong. But mostly they go about everything with a sense of humor. I think another company that does this quite interestingly is The Nothing Phone. Their CEO literally on YouTube, like he records himself live watching reviews and responds to these reviews. And in some places he gives context for choices which I like because it's context for choice. So he's not excusing a problem or an issue. He's going, these are the constraints and these were the choices made based on those constraints, hence indeed this issue.GEOFFREY: I've had this as a product manager where you see a massive problem with your product and you don't have the resources to solve it within a week and you're like, it's big problem, but just being able to go to a customer, I'm gonna put in my best effort and attempt to help you. That already changes the interaction that you're having because it goes from the experience of you working against them and making their life harder for something that should be simpler to, okay, let me see if I can stand on your side of the story and help you. And even if I can't help you, maybe relieve some of your frustration.GEOFFREY: Every time I work with a development team, I need and want them to be able to read the interviews with the customers and to understand the customer's problem. First of all, you end up with creative solutions that anybody else on the team would have never thought of. And second of all, aligns them on the mission.GEOFFREY: The more empathy you have within your company towards the users that you're trying to solve problems for, the better that solution ends up being and the more motivated people end up being.KG: Is there a book, a quote, or any advice that you hold close to your heart right now and you'd like to share?GEOFFREY: I'm currently writing a theater show about shame. And to write that show, do research and part of the research was reading a book called Velvet Rage. This research on shame, it's incredible because you realize that it's present in so many layers of society and there's so many examples that you see and so many responses that people have to things.GEOFFREY: I think that we don't talk about shame, which is one of the mechanisms of shame is that we hide and we don't talk about it. And because we talk about it so little, it's not on our empathy radar. We very rarely go, what if they're ashamed? And that's why this is the response. And not talking about shame keeps shame intact. So that's a silence that I think we need to collectively break in order to make working together easier, in order to help you understand the world, in order to make makes life easier to have that extra little insight into this one emotion that we kind of keep aside and even when we do talk about shame we very frequently incorrectly define it so then we're still mischaracterizing it.REFERENCES & LINKS:GEOFFREY’s LinkedIN/Website pageLINKEDINGeoffrey van der VenGEOFFREY’s Book/Suggested ArticleVELVET RAGE by ALAN DOWNSThe Human Conversation Podcast ChannelsAPPLE PODCASTSSPOTIFY

The Human Conversation with Geoffrey van der Ven

<h1>Guest: Jessica Bensch</h1> Jessica Bensch is a global advocate for workplace transformation and the founder of Vanguard Voices, a movement dedicated to making psychological safety a non-negotiable standard across all industries. With decades of professional experience across continents and sectors, Jessica has witnessed firsthand that good intentions and isolated efforts are not enough to create meaningful change. True progress, she believes, demands collective responsibility and unwavering accountability from leaders, employees, and organizations alike.Having lived, worked, and traveled in nearly 40 countries, Jessica has developed a deep appreciation for the power of diversity—and the damage inflicted when voices are silenced. She knows that unchecked workplace abuse undermines creativity, erodes morale, and stifles organizational growth. Through Vanguard Voices, Jessica unites individuals and organizations around the world in a shared commitment to fostering cultures of true safety, inclusion, and accountability.For Jessica, this work is more than a career—it is her passion and life’s purpose. Driven by a powerful vision of change, she continues to lead the charge toward a future where psychological safety is not just an ideal but a universal reality.  <h3>HIGHLIGHTS & TAKEAWAYS:</h3><ul><li>JESSICA: I truly believe in creating environments where people can feel free to express their thoughts fully, openly, and contribute it meaningfully as well.</li><li>JESSICA: My work is all about removing the barriers that silence people. The fear, the bureaucracy, the unspoken rules that are keeping people from speaking up, like taking risks and also driving change. I truly believe that companies thrive when people are heard and valued and empowered. And I truly believe that changing our workplaces, particularly workplace culture, is not just an HR issue, it's an everybody issue. It involves all of us. It starts with leadership responsibility, but a collective movement is needed to ensure that we have those safe workplaces that I believe that everybody craves for.</li><li>JESSICA: Vanguard Voices is a not-for-profit association. Our laser focus is to bring the topic of psychological safety, that is where people can feel free to express their thoughts fully. Vanguard Voices was founded with the belief and the research that proves it, that psychological safety is foundational for our teams and our organizations to thrive.</li><li>KG: Can you share with us what inspired you to start it?</li><li>JESSICA: I think it was about seven, eight years ago, our company was going through a transformation. And at that time, the messaging that was coming through from, you know, as part of that transformation is that we need to be more bold, we need to be more courageous, we need to speak up. And I thought, that's great. And we started a grassroots effort within our company. We were doing speaking engagements, we were doing surveys and focus groups and sharing a lot of stories, not with the corporate jargon, but real, authentic stories were coming to the surface. And we were speaking to leaders at all levels. And at that time, we were seeing such momentum. With this effort because it was resonating. were really getting to the core of why people felt uncomfortable, generally speaking, of bringing their voice forward. And along the way, we were, of course, speaking with leaders at all levels, and we had tens of thousands who were following us.</li><li>JESSICA: What I learned is that fear is not at just one level at the organization, it's at all levels. And it was very difficult to kind of push everything through without engagement at the higher levels. And what I also learned was this is not a topic specific to one company. It's really a global topic. It's a human topic. And so with that understanding in mind, I thought, well, first of all, I can't let go of this passion and fire I have on this topic. And I want to make this bigger. And so that's why I founded Vanguard Voices with the pure belief that we can make change. We can link arms around the world and it will happen.</li><li>KG: What environment or context does it take for a person to come up with a truly original powerful idea and build that, nurture that into a global movement. What did it take for you to do that?</li><li>JESSICA: I just believe in treating everyone equally as human beings, eye to eye, not looking up, not looking down. And that's what fuels me forward. And I'm a big believer that as well that we all have a purpose and a purpose, know, I was born with a particular purpose to fulfill in life. And I believe everybody has their own purpose. I have discovered my purpose through this experience, you know, in corporate and now through Vanguard. And even though it's hard, even though there are lots of struggles along the way, I know I can't let this go because my values are too deep and my purpose is very much on my mind.</li><li>KG: What do the terms ethics and integrity mean to you in the context of all that you do?</li><li>JESSICA: Ethics and Integrity isn't just about doing the right thing. It's about doing it even when it's inconvenient and it's uncomfortable and even costly.</li><li>JESSICA: Integrity is about doing what we say we're going to do when no one's watching. And it's how we're handling hard decisions. It's the moments where we could easily take another way, but choose not to. Ethics, it means aligning what we say with what we do. It's words with action. And so it's not about words on a wall, like from a company perspective, values written on a wall, it's making sure that those values guide our decisions, even when it's hard.</li><li>KG: Have you observed any typical ethical dilemmas that professionals might face and what would your advice be to professionals on this?</li><li>JESSICA: One moment that stands out is when a leader who wanted to have a culture of openness in his team was unknowingly shutting down voices that were around him. He would say, I want open feedback. I want honest feedback. My door is always open. But the reality from his team's perspective was when people challenged him, there were some subtle consequences. So they were excluded from key conversations or decisions. Their ideas were dismissed in meetings and basically their confidence in raising their voice to him stalled.</li><li>JESSICA: I chose to be direct. And it wasn't easy because there was resistance at first. And over time, that leader realized that psychological safety wasn't just about asking for feedback, you also have to earn it. And so the most ethical thing to do in this situation for me that we can all do is tell the truth. And it goes back to telling the truth, speaking your truth, even when it's hard.</li><li>KG: What I'm receiving from you right now is that sometimes it might not feel safe to call something out. And it's okay if a person cannot do it directly and may choose to do it a little later and slightly more indirectly. But in this case, you made it clear that there was a choice you made. And so, you're saying that someone can assess in that situation and if they feel they can, call it out and if they need a little bit more time, that's okay. So would you like to share a little bit more about that?</li><li>JESSICA: Wisdom is needed. You need to sense, follow your intuition. We can usually sense when somebody is ready to receive feedback and is able to take it under the circumstances. What I often have found is when I've been direct, people come back and appreciate it. Many people like to receive kind of the reflection, you know, from the mirror. And that's sometimes what I provide. But there are others who may not be ready. And that's where that wisdom is needed.</li><li>KG: Are there some typical scenarios you notice where it triggers failure of psychological safety or trust in the workplace in general and workplaces as you coach leaders today? Classic scenarios. Can you also share any tips to professionals in these classic scenarios? How would you say it? How would you begin? What's the opening gambit to be honest and reflect the truth back to somebody, especially in situations where perhaps you don't feel like you have all the power?</li><li>ESSICA: The gap that I often see in companies is back to what they say and what they actually do. And so in companies, we often talk about inclusion. We talk about integrity. We talk about all these values, these beautiful values that are shown on the wall. We talk about them, but then some classic examples are when we're protecting the toxic performers. We encourage the feedback, but then we start to punish those who speak up. Another classic example is when there's a promise of transparency, but critical decisions are made behind closed doors. So this gap between what is said and what is done is really dangerous and it will damage the trust. And it just teaches people that what's said in public isn't really practice in reality.</li><li>JESSICA: The advice I would give is that leaders need to look in the mirror first. And invite, truly invite the feedback from others, but they need to also be looking at themselves and asking their questions to themselves like, are we truly modeling this ourselves? Where are we short, falling short? What's one action we can take today to align the words with reality? People trust what they see, not what they hear. That's essentially, I think, the work that's needed in companies today.</li><li>KG: I observed that this is also a great parallel to parenting too. You and I have both bonded over the fact that we're also parents and children too will trust you based on your actions and not your words. And so I think our outside personas and inside personas both need mindful attention to the fact that our actions speak way more loudly than our words do.</li><li>KG: As you said, people actually appreciate your honesty. What can we say or do that brings that reaction out of at least some of the people we interact with?</li><li>JESSICA: I am not somebody to focus on negatives. It's more, I'm a big believer in looking at their strengths and enhancing on those strengths. And if they are willing to go deeper and really working on one particular area, then I will meet them there. And provide some advice or some tips along the way.</li><li>JESSICA: I do have a comment though about providing feedback. It doesn't always feel safe to give feedback nor to receive feedback. And part of the reason why I started Vanguard is because I believe that in order for us to feel safe to give feedback, psychological safety, feeling free to express our thoughts, has to be prioritized and measured and monitored at all levels of the organization.</li><li>KG: Have you come across any technology or modality or assessment system that you have seen to be particularly effective? Have you seen anything that is surprisingly good?</li><li>JESSICA: There's different tools in terms of us as individuals, MBTI is a famous one. There's 16 personalities, there's strength binders. From an individual perspective, you can assess. I've seen other tools like learning circle profile, LCP, which is widely used in some of the corporates and where you have an opportunity to see what are your creative behaviors, when are you in the creative space versus in the reactive space. And here you get feedback from your team as well.</li><li>JESSICA: I like to have people be at ease. I want people to feel comfortable, but that feedback, again, if you know that psychological safety is there and we can be human and make those mistakes, the feedback is what will, from others, which will help us identify where we have maybe strayed and where we could make some correction.</li><li>KG: Are there any books or quotes that have been particularly amazing for you that you want to share with the audience of this podcast?</li><li>JESSICA: There is one book I absolutely love and it's from Mark Benioff, the CEO of Salesforce. And he wrote the book Trailblazer. And he says, values create value. If trust is our highest value, then we must earn it every day. And so to me, this is a powerful reminder that trust is not just a single moment, it's built through consistent action. And so every decision, whether it's big or small, leaders are either reinforcing that trust or either breaking it. There's no neutral ground. And so that's the real challenge and the responsibility of leadership.</li></ul> <h3>REFERENCES & LINKS:</h3>JESSICA’s LinkedIN/Website page<a href="https://www.linkedin.com/in/jessicabensch/" rel="noopener noreferrer" target="_blank" style="color: rgb(110, 119, 110);">LINKEDIN</a><a href="https://www.vanguardvoices.com/" rel="noopener noreferrer" target="_blank" style="color: rgb(110, 119, 110);">VANGUARD VOICES</a> JESSICA’s Book/Suggested Article<a href="https://www.amazon.com/Trailblazer-Business-Greatest-Platform-Change/dp/1984825194" rel="noopener noreferrer" target="_blank" style="color: rgb(110, 119, 110);">TRAILBLAZER BY MARC BENIOFF</a> The Human Conversation Podcast Channels<a href="https://podcasts.apple.com/us/podcast/the-human-conversation-podcast-on-leadership-and-ethics/id1736302989" rel="noopener noreferrer" target="_blank">APPLE PODCASTS</a><a href="https://open.spotify.com/show/2DLMqNqgKZTKyB8zcw5MF0?si=a5c9d1e15b6e4ac3" rel="noopener noreferrer" target="_blank">SPOTIFY</a>

Guest: Jessica BenschJessica Bensch is a global advocate for workplace transformation and the founder of Vanguard Voices, a movement dedicated to making psychological safety a non-negotiable standard across all industries. With decades of professional experience across continents and sectors, Jessica has witnessed firsthand that good intentions and isolated efforts are not enough to create meaningful change. True progress, she believes, demands collective responsibility and unwavering accountability from leaders, employees, and organizations alike.Having lived, worked, and traveled in nearly 40 countries, Jessica has developed a deep appreciation for the power of diversity—and the damage inflicted when voices are silenced. She knows that unchecked workplace abuse undermines creativity, erodes morale, and stifles organizational growth. Through Vanguard Voices, Jessica unites individuals and organizations around the world in a shared commitment to fostering cultures of true safety, inclusion, and accountability.For Jessica, this work is more than a career—it is her passion and life’s purpose. Driven by a powerful vision of change, she continues to lead the charge toward a future where psychological safety is not just an ideal but a universal reality. HIGHLIGHTS & TAKEAWAYS:JESSICA: I truly believe in creating environments where people can feel free to express their thoughts fully, openly, and contribute it meaningfully as well.JESSICA: My work is all about removing the barriers that silence people. The fear, the bureaucracy, the unspoken rules that are keeping people from speaking up, like taking risks and also driving change. I truly believe that companies thrive when people are heard and valued and empowered. And I truly believe that changing our workplaces, particularly workplace culture, is not just an HR issue, it's an everybody issue. It involves all of us. It starts with leadership responsibility, but a collective movement is needed to ensure that we have those safe workplaces that I believe that everybody craves for.JESSICA: Vanguard Voices is a not-for-profit association. Our laser focus is to bring the topic of psychological safety, that is where people can feel free to express their thoughts fully. Vanguard Voices was founded with the belief and the research that proves it, that psychological safety is foundational for our teams and our organizations to thrive.KG: Can you share with us what inspired you to start it?JESSICA: I think it was about seven, eight years ago, our company was going through a transformation. And at that time, the messaging that was coming through from, you know, as part of that transformation is that we need to be more bold, we need to be more courageous, we need to speak up. And I thought, that's great. And we started a grassroots effort within our company. We were doing speaking engagements, we were doing surveys and focus groups and sharing a lot of stories, not with the corporate jargon, but real, authentic stories were coming to the surface. And we were speaking to leaders at all levels. And at that time, we were seeing such momentum. With this effort because it was resonating. were really getting to the core of why people felt uncomfortable, generally speaking, of bringing their voice forward. And along the way, we were, of course, speaking with leaders at all levels, and we had tens of thousands who were following us.JESSICA: What I learned is that fear is not at just one level at the organization, it's at all levels. And it was very difficult to kind of push everything through without engagement at the higher levels. And what I also learned was this is not a topic specific to one company. It's really a global topic. It's a human topic. And so with that understanding in mind, I thought, well, first of all, I can't let go of this passion and fire I have on this topic. And I want to make this bigger. And so that's why I founded Vanguard Voices with the pure belief that we can make change. We can link arms around the world and it will happen.KG: What environment or context does it take for a person to come up with a truly original powerful idea and build that, nurture that into a global movement. What did it take for you to do that?JESSICA: I just believe in treating everyone equally as human beings, eye to eye, not looking up, not looking down. And that's what fuels me forward. And I'm a big believer that as well that we all have a purpose and a purpose, know, I was born with a particular purpose to fulfill in life. And I believe everybody has their own purpose. I have discovered my purpose through this experience, you know, in corporate and now through Vanguard. And even though it's hard, even though there are lots of struggles along the way, I know I can't let this go because my values are too deep and my purpose is very much on my mind.KG: What do the terms ethics and integrity mean to you in the context of all that you do?JESSICA: Ethics and Integrity isn't just about doing the right thing. It's about doing it even when it's inconvenient and it's uncomfortable and even costly.JESSICA: Integrity is about doing what we say we're going to do when no one's watching. And it's how we're handling hard decisions. It's the moments where we could easily take another way, but choose not to. Ethics, it means aligning what we say with what we do. It's words with action. And so it's not about words on a wall, like from a company perspective, values written on a wall, it's making sure that those values guide our decisions, even when it's hard.KG: Have you observed any typical ethical dilemmas that professionals might face and what would your advice be to professionals on this?JESSICA: One moment that stands out is when a leader who wanted to have a culture of openness in his team was unknowingly shutting down voices that were around him. He would say, I want open feedback. I want honest feedback. My door is always open. But the reality from his team's perspective was when people challenged him, there were some subtle consequences. So they were excluded from key conversations or decisions. Their ideas were dismissed in meetings and basically their confidence in raising their voice to him stalled.JESSICA: I chose to be direct. And it wasn't easy because there was resistance at first. And over time, that leader realized that psychological safety wasn't just about asking for feedback, you also have to earn it. And so the most ethical thing to do in this situation for me that we can all do is tell the truth. And it goes back to telling the truth, speaking your truth, even when it's hard.KG: What I'm receiving from you right now is that sometimes it might not feel safe to call something out. And it's okay if a person cannot do it directly and may choose to do it a little later and slightly more indirectly. But in this case, you made it clear that there was a choice you made. And so, you're saying that someone can assess in that situation and if they feel they can, call it out and if they need a little bit more time, that's okay. So would you like to share a little bit more about that?JESSICA: Wisdom is needed. You need to sense, follow your intuition. We can usually sense when somebody is ready to receive feedback and is able to take it under the circumstances. What I often have found is when I've been direct, people come back and appreciate it. Many people like to receive kind of the reflection, you know, from the mirror. And that's sometimes what I provide. But there are others who may not be ready. And that's where that wisdom is needed.KG: Are there some typical scenarios you notice where it triggers failure of psychological safety or trust in the workplace in general and workplaces as you coach leaders today? Classic scenarios. Can you also share any tips to professionals in these classic scenarios? How would you say it? How would you begin? What's the opening gambit to be honest and reflect the truth back to somebody, especially in situations where perhaps you don't feel like you have all the power?ESSICA: The gap that I often see in companies is back to what they say and what they actually do. And so in companies, we often talk about inclusion. We talk about integrity. We talk about all these values, these beautiful values that are shown on the wall. We talk about them, but then some classic examples are when we're protecting the toxic performers. We encourage the feedback, but then we start to punish those who speak up. Another classic example is when there's a promise of transparency, but critical decisions are made behind closed doors. So this gap between what is said and what is done is really dangerous and it will damage the trust. And it just teaches people that what's said in public isn't really practice in reality.JESSICA: The advice I would give is that leaders need to look in the mirror first. And invite, truly invite the feedback from others, but they need to also be looking at themselves and asking their questions to themselves like, are we truly modeling this ourselves? Where are we short, falling short? What's one action we can take today to align the words with reality? People trust what they see, not what they hear. That's essentially, I think, the work that's needed in companies today.KG: I observed that this is also a great parallel to parenting too. You and I have both bonded over the fact that we're also parents and children too will trust you based on your actions and not your words. And so I think our outside personas and inside personas both need mindful attention to the fact that our actions speak way more loudly than our words do.KG: As you said, people actually appreciate your honesty. What can we say or do that brings that reaction out of at least some of the people we interact with?JESSICA: I am not somebody to focus on negatives. It's more, I'm a big believer in looking at their strengths and enhancing on those strengths. And if they are willing to go deeper and really working on one particular area, then I will meet them there. And provide some advice or some tips along the way.JESSICA: I do have a comment though about providing feedback. It doesn't always feel safe to give feedback nor to receive feedback. And part of the reason why I started Vanguard is because I believe that in order for us to feel safe to give feedback, psychological safety, feeling free to express our thoughts, has to be prioritized and measured and monitored at all levels of the organization.KG: Have you come across any technology or modality or assessment system that you have seen to be particularly effective? Have you seen anything that is surprisingly good?JESSICA: There's different tools in terms of us as individuals, MBTI is a famous one. There's 16 personalities, there's strength binders. From an individual perspective, you can assess. I've seen other tools like learning circle profile, LCP, which is widely used in some of the corporates and where you have an opportunity to see what are your creative behaviors, when are you in the creative space versus in the reactive space. And here you get feedback from your team as well.JESSICA: I like to have people be at ease. I want people to feel comfortable, but that feedback, again, if you know that psychological safety is there and we can be human and make those mistakes, the feedback is what will, from others, which will help us identify where we have maybe strayed and where we could make some correction.KG: Are there any books or quotes that have been particularly amazing for you that you want to share with the audience of this podcast?JESSICA: There is one book I absolutely love and it's from Mark Benioff, the CEO of Salesforce. And he wrote the book Trailblazer. And he says, values create value. If trust is our highest value, then we must earn it every day. And so to me, this is a powerful reminder that trust is not just a single moment, it's built through consistent action. And so every decision, whether it's big or small, leaders are either reinforcing that trust or either breaking it. There's no neutral ground. And so that's the real challenge and the responsibility of leadership. REFERENCES & LINKS:JESSICA’s LinkedIN/Website pageLINKEDINVANGUARD VOICESJESSICA’s Book/Suggested ArticleTRAILBLAZER BY MARC BENIOFFThe Human Conversation Podcast ChannelsAPPLE PODCASTSSPOTIFY

The Human Conversation with Jessica Bensch

<h1>Guest: Dr. Nigel Paine</h1> ﻿Dr. Nigel Paine is a change-focused leader with a worldwide reputation and a unique grasp of media, learning and development in the public, private and academic sectors.He has extensive experience in leadership and consultancy with public service broadcasters, SMEs, global industry players, government and education institutions.Nigel focuses on the use of learning technologies, organisational development, leadership and creativity with a spotlight on maximising human potential, innovation and performance in the workplace. Nigel is a strategic thinker, able to motivate, lead and drive organisations forward to deliver business and training objectives.Nigel has been involved in corporate learning for over twenty years. He was appointed in April 2002 to head up the BBC’s Learning and Development operation. Under his leadership, the team developed a brand-new on-boarding experience, a comprehensive leadership development programme for over 6,000 staff, an award-winning intranet, and state of the art informal learning and knowledge sharing networks.He left the BBC in September 2006 to start his own company that is focused on building great workplaces by promoting creativity, innovation, values based-leadership and learning and the link between them.He speaks regularly at conferences around the world, and teaches on a doctoral programme at the University of Pennsylvania and for Chicago Booth Business School. His first book, The Learning Challenge: Dealing with Technology, Innovation and Change in Learning and Development was published in September 2014. His new book on Building Leadership Development Programmes That Work was published in November 2016. He is currently working on a new book re-examining learning organisations and learning culture. He recently co-authored an eBook introduction to Neuroscience for Learning.He has a Professorship from Napier University in Edinburgh, and is a Fellow of the CIPD, LPI, the RSA and a Masie Learning Fellow in the USA. He presents a monthly TV programme (Learning Now TV), shares a weekly podcast (with Martin Couzins) called From Scratch, and regularly writes articles for magazines and journals about development, technology and leadership.Nigel has written articles and white papers published on subjects as diverse as ‘Creativity in the Workplace’, ‘Building Corporate Heroes’ and ‘The Future of E-Learning’.  <h3>HIGHLIGHTS & TAKEAWAYS:</h3><ul><li>DR. NIGEL: One of the things that I've come more and more and more to believe is that I value decency and kindness. And I think organizations are far too harsh and toxic and do not value decency and kindness. And the research from the book really indicated that if you do not value decency and kindness, you will never get the best from your staff. You can flog them, you can force them, you can cajole them, but if you really want motivated staff, they need to have unsolicited, unconditional effort, and that comes from decency and kindness. Increasingly, that's my belief, and I don't care what anyone thinks. I'm promoting that, and I will continue to promote it.</li><li>DR. NIGEL: Even though some people think I'm being naive, I actually think I'm being realistic. Because the kind of world that we live in is so volatile, you can't get the best out of people by mistreating them and then saying, but give me your ideas, give me extra commitment. It doesn't happen. It doesn't happen.</li><li>KG: What do the terms ethics and integrity mean to you as you bring your expertise to the world?</li><li>DR. NIGEL: When I started my own company, I made three decisions which have been helped. The first decision was I would never work with people I didn't trust. The second decision was that I would not stick to doing the same old, same old, same old. I would develop and move forward and think it through. And the third was that I would try to help organizations become less toxic in whatever, by whatever, whatever route. And I've tried to do that. I've maybe failed a lot, but I've tried very hard to live by those values. And it's really an ethical approach.</li><li>DR. NIGEL: Integrity is very important to me. If I lose my integrity, I lose everything. If I lose a bit of money, I lose a bit of money. That's not the end of the world. I can get money back. I can't get my integrity back. So no one has ever tried to buy me or if they have, I've resisted it forcefully. And no one has tried to make me say things and no one has encouraged me to support bad treatment of staff or a bad culture. I'm trying to create a culture where people grow, learn, flourish and share.</li><li>DR. NIGEL: It's very important to me to have an ethical foundation and values. And I like organizations that have ethical foundations and values and they live by them. They don't just stick them on the wall, they actually live by them. So I think that's very important. I believe and nothing has ever shaken that belief that basically people are good and that people the vast majority want to do good work. </li><li>DR. NIGEL: I really genuinely believe that we can make work better, we can make work work, and we can have people who really enjoy going to work do fantastic work and increase productivity for the organization. Productivity and a decent workplace aren't contradictory, but some people think they are, and I don't understand. Because there's no evidence to show that they're right and I'm wrong. No evidence. There's more evidence to show that I'm right and they're wrong.</li><li>KG: Do you have any words of encouragement or advice for professionals who are not so powerful in those organizations, mid-level or early career?</li><li>DR. NIGEL: You can behave in your area with your team in a way that is noticeably different from the rest of the organization. So the fact that the organization behaves in a particular way doesn't stop you doing something different. And sometimes it's like a contagion that you set something up. You put a bit of bacteria in the organization, then it replicates, at some point it becomes unstoppable.</li><li>DR. NIGEL:  The minute you know consciously that this is not what you should be doing, walk away. Just walk away. However much they pay you, however much they say this is only temporary or whatever, because otherwise you'll get caught.</li><li>KG:  It occurs to me that social media and technology are rather skewed towards negative stories, the stories of hatred and fear tend to be more attractive and clickbait worthy. But in your extensive experience, would you say large organizations and professionals are more towards the spectrum of kindness and decency and creating psychological safety in workplaces. Would you say that's your observation?</li><li>DR. NIGEL: I think it's an increasing area of development in organizations. And it's not because they're just suddenly being do goody. We must do this to be good to people. They're doing it for very cynical, pragmatic reasons. If the more psychological safety, the more interaction, the more problem solving, the more creativity, the more productivity, it's all about getting the best out of people in the world.</li><li>DR. NIGEL: And if you're not comfortable, you know what to do. You walk away and don't let that slippery slope start occurring. We compromise a bit, compromise a bit more, compromise a bit more. And then suddenly you've crossed a line. So that line still exists. These decisions are being made every day all around the world in organizations. So you know what to do. You know what the right thing to do is. But if you can do it without damaging yourself, then that's the best thing.</li><li>DR. NIGEL: I don't believe in confrontation or holier than thou, in big moral high ground. I just believe in quietly walking away because that's the safest thing you can do. Disappearing basically.</li><li>KG: I think it is an excellent example of nonviolent communication and strategic conflict management because indeed it is counterproductive sometimes as professionals to be defiant and speak up in ways that burn bridges, you can certainly continue to do your work and speak up and establish a clean record for yourself while being polite.</li><li>KG: Do not bend your own principles. Make it clear what you will and will not accept, but continue to be polite and work while you might not see eye to eye with them on those activities, you're clearly outlining what you will and will not do. And therefore they know what to expect of you.</li><li>DR. NIGEL: People have to be conscious of the decisions they make and the impact. It's rather like Nonviolent Communication, that wonderful book that you've got to be conscious of the language you use and recognize the implications of the language you use. And it's learning something, that things that were invisible suddenly become visible. And I think that's what this is all about. It's making it visible and bring it to the fore of your consciousness, not stick it in the back of your consciousness so you don't notice it.</li><li>KG:  What are your observations on ethical dilemmas most relevant today? And what's your advice to leaders and professionals in these situations?</li><li>DR. NIGEL: I just think as a leader, a leader who does not behave ethically, corrupts the whole organization. So I think you have a special responsibility and you may be under the most pressure. And we all know about ways that organizations do things that are not incredibly wrong, but are on the edge. I think if I'm a leader, I've got to have a clear indicator of what I believe. And I make sure the whole organization knows what I believe as well, so that you don't get people further down the organization misbehaving. But if I misbehave, I have no justification whatsoever for stopping anyone else misbehaving. And you tend to find these things cascade. So weakness at the top, ends up weakness throughout the whole organization. Strength at the top, strength all the way through the organization. people need to be proud to work for you. And if they think you're a bit of a scumbag, that you've got very dubious ethics, not much in the way of morals, it's very hard to work your heart out and do your best for someone like that, always. And I always say to leaders, be aware, not of what you say. People say the right thing usually, but be aware that everyone notices what you do. And don't be naive and think that you can do what you like and no one notices. Everybody notices. Everybody notices. So by your actions, are you defined, not by your words, because there can be a massive gap between words and actions. And that's very, very important. And the more the gap between words and actions exists, the more people talk about it, the lower the organization will be pulled, I think.</li><li>KG: The integrity gap, that's such a powerful thing. That line, you're defined by your actions, not by your words.</li><li>KG: What is your favorite quote or book or advice that inspired you? Would you like to share that with the audience?</li><li>DR. NIGEL: Someone quoted Theodore Roosevelt and it's such a simple quote, but it really really affected me and it's a kind of the thing I live by and it said that “The fundamental role of our natural life or the rule which underlines all others is that on the whole and in the long run we shall go up or down together.”</li><li>DR. NIGEL: I love that idea that we are all in it together and I will be in an organization where as if the people at the top rise, everybody rises. If I rise, so does everyone else. That idea that we're connected, that we're part of a community and that we're not all on our own or I can disengage my success from everyone else's. So I can treat people brutally and be successful. I think that's a very short term view of the world. So I think it is a fundamental rule.</li><li>DR. NIGEL: GE used to have a quote in their leadership center in Cronenberg and it said, in a rising tide, all boats rise. I completely agree with that. You can be a massive ship or a little boat, little rowing boat. You all rise as the tide rises. And that's what you need to ensure, that you are building a rising tide and that you will ensure that all boats rise, all ships rise. So that quote really goes to the heart of what I believe.</li><li>KG:  How do you maintain the great quality of your writing and thought leadership?</li><li>DR. NIGEL: Don't write when I know something. I write when I don't know something. So therefore, I'm plagued by curiosity and doubt and worries. And that's what prompts my writing. So I want to answer a question. I've always got a question. someone said, I don't write when I understand. I write to understand. And that's exactly the same as me. There's always a dilemma at the heart of all of my books. And that's what drives me on. It's like an itch. I need to know, I need to understand that. And when I start researching it and I start to come up with ideas, I then have a compulsion to write them down. So I write a lot.</li><li>DR. NIGEL: Writing is a habit in a way. If I have to write something, I can just write it. I don't need to worry. I never worry that I can't write. But a lot of people say, but how do you get started? And the answer is you get started by writing. You start writing, that's how you get started. And you just put words on a page and if they're rubbish, I write myself into understanding. So sometimes I write and write and write and at the end of the day, I discard everything apart from the last paragraph because that's my starting point. And that's okay. You write to edit to discard. You don't write to make it perfect. I don't agonize over a single sentence. I just keep writing. And if my writing is terrible, I just throw it away and start again. Because some days your writing will be terrible and some days your writing will be really something you can be proud of. But you can't predict it. But the only thing you can predict is if you write, you will end up writing something. It's as simple as that. </li></ul> <h3>REFERENCES & LINKS:</h3> DR. NIGEL’s LinkedIN/Website page<a href="https://www.linkedin.com/in/nigelpaine/" rel="noopener noreferrer" target="_blank" style="color: rgb(89, 93, 112);">LINKEDIN</a><a href="https://www.nigelpaine.com/" rel="noopener noreferrer" target="_blank" style="color: rgb(89, 93, 112);">NIGELPAINE</a> DR. NIGEL’s Book/Suggested Article<a href="https://ldaccelerator.com/great-reset" rel="noopener noreferrer" target="_blank" style="color: rgb(89, 93, 112);">THE GREAT RESET</a><a href="https://www.amazon.com/Nonviolent-Communication-Language-Life-Changing-Relationships/dp/189200528X" rel="noopener noreferrer" target="_blank" style="color: rgb(89, 93, 112);">NONVIOLENT COMMUNICATION</a> The Human Conversation Podcast Channels<a href="https://podcasts.apple.com/us/podcast/the-human-conversation-podcast-on-leadership-and-ethics/id1736302989" rel="noopener noreferrer" target="_blank" style="color: rgb(89, 93, 112);">APPLE PODCASTS</a><a href="https://open.spotify.com/show/2DLMqNqgKZTKyB8zcw5MF0?si=a5c9d1e15b6e4ac3" rel="noopener noreferrer" target="_blank" style="color: rgb(89, 93, 112);">SPOTIFY</a>

Guest: Dr. Nigel Paine﻿Dr. Nigel Paine is a change-focused leader with a worldwide reputation and a unique grasp of media, learning and development in the public, private and academic sectors.He has extensive experience in leadership and consultancy with public service broadcasters, SMEs, global industry players, government and education institutions.Nigel focuses on the use of learning technologies, organisational development, leadership and creativity with a spotlight on maximising human potential, innovation and performance in the workplace. Nigel is a strategic thinker, able to motivate, lead and drive organisations forward to deliver business and training objectives.Nigel has been involved in corporate learning for over twenty years. He was appointed in April 2002 to head up the BBC’s Learning and Development operation. Under his leadership, the team developed a brand-new on-boarding experience, a comprehensive leadership development programme for over 6,000 staff, an award-winning intranet, and state of the art informal learning and knowledge sharing networks.He left the BBC in September 2006 to start his own company that is focused on building great workplaces by promoting creativity, innovation, values based-leadership and learning and the link between them.He speaks regularly at conferences around the world, and teaches on a doctoral programme at the University of Pennsylvania and for Chicago Booth Business School. His first book, The Learning Challenge: Dealing with Technology, Innovation and Change in Learning and Development was published in September 2014. His new book on Building Leadership Development Programmes That Work was published in November 2016. He is currently working on a new book re-examining learning organisations and learning culture. He recently co-authored an eBook introduction to Neuroscience for Learning.He has a Professorship from Napier University in Edinburgh, and is a Fellow of the CIPD, LPI, the RSA and a Masie Learning Fellow in the USA. He presents a monthly TV programme (Learning Now TV), shares a weekly podcast (with Martin Couzins) called From Scratch, and regularly writes articles for magazines and journals about development, technology and leadership.Nigel has written articles and white papers published on subjects as diverse as ‘Creativity in the Workplace’, ‘Building Corporate Heroes’ and ‘The Future of E-Learning’. HIGHLIGHTS & TAKEAWAYS:DR. NIGEL: One of the things that I've come more and more and more to believe is that I value decency and kindness. And I think organizations are far too harsh and toxic and do not value decency and kindness. And the research from the book really indicated that if you do not value decency and kindness, you will never get the best from your staff. You can flog them, you can force them, you can cajole them, but if you really want motivated staff, they need to have unsolicited, unconditional effort, and that comes from decency and kindness. Increasingly, that's my belief, and I don't care what anyone thinks. I'm promoting that, and I will continue to promote it.DR. NIGEL: Even though some people think I'm being naive, I actually think I'm being realistic. Because the kind of world that we live in is so volatile, you can't get the best out of people by mistreating them and then saying, but give me your ideas, give me extra commitment. It doesn't happen. It doesn't happen.KG: What do the terms ethics and integrity mean to you as you bring your expertise to the world?DR. NIGEL: When I started my own company, I made three decisions which have been helped. The first decision was I would never work with people I didn't trust. The second decision was that I would not stick to doing the same old, same old, same old. I would develop and move forward and think it through. And the third was that I would try to help organizations become less toxic in whatever, by whatever, whatever route. And I've tried to do that. I've maybe failed a lot, but I've tried very hard to live by those values. And it's really an ethical approach.DR. NIGEL: Integrity is very important to me. If I lose my integrity, I lose everything. If I lose a bit of money, I lose a bit of money. That's not the end of the world. I can get money back. I can't get my integrity back. So no one has ever tried to buy me or if they have, I've resisted it forcefully. And no one has tried to make me say things and no one has encouraged me to support bad treatment of staff or a bad culture. I'm trying to create a culture where people grow, learn, flourish and share.DR. NIGEL: It's very important to me to have an ethical foundation and values. And I like organizations that have ethical foundations and values and they live by them. They don't just stick them on the wall, they actually live by them. So I think that's very important. I believe and nothing has ever shaken that belief that basically people are good and that people the vast majority want to do good work. DR. NIGEL: I really genuinely believe that we can make work better, we can make work work, and we can have people who really enjoy going to work do fantastic work and increase productivity for the organization. Productivity and a decent workplace aren't contradictory, but some people think they are, and I don't understand. Because there's no evidence to show that they're right and I'm wrong. No evidence. There's more evidence to show that I'm right and they're wrong.KG: Do you have any words of encouragement or advice for professionals who are not so powerful in those organizations, mid-level or early career?DR. NIGEL: You can behave in your area with your team in a way that is noticeably different from the rest of the organization. So the fact that the organization behaves in a particular way doesn't stop you doing something different. And sometimes it's like a contagion that you set something up. You put a bit of bacteria in the organization, then it replicates, at some point it becomes unstoppable.DR. NIGEL:  The minute you know consciously that this is not what you should be doing, walk away. Just walk away. However much they pay you, however much they say this is only temporary or whatever, because otherwise you'll get caught.KG:  It occurs to me that social media and technology are rather skewed towards negative stories, the stories of hatred and fear tend to be more attractive and clickbait worthy. But in your extensive experience, would you say large organizations and professionals are more towards the spectrum of kindness and decency and creating psychological safety in workplaces. Would you say that's your observation?DR. NIGEL: I think it's an increasing area of development in organizations. And it's not because they're just suddenly being do goody. We must do this to be good to people. They're doing it for very cynical, pragmatic reasons. If the more psychological safety, the more interaction, the more problem solving, the more creativity, the more productivity, it's all about getting the best out of people in the world.DR. NIGEL: And if you're not comfortable, you know what to do. You walk away and don't let that slippery slope start occurring. We compromise a bit, compromise a bit more, compromise a bit more. And then suddenly you've crossed a line. So that line still exists. These decisions are being made every day all around the world in organizations. So you know what to do. You know what the right thing to do is. But if you can do it without damaging yourself, then that's the best thing.DR. NIGEL: I don't believe in confrontation or holier than thou, in big moral high ground. I just believe in quietly walking away because that's the safest thing you can do. Disappearing basically.KG: I think it is an excellent example of nonviolent communication and strategic conflict management because indeed it is counterproductive sometimes as professionals to be defiant and speak up in ways that burn bridges, you can certainly continue to do your work and speak up and establish a clean record for yourself while being polite.KG: Do not bend your own principles. Make it clear what you will and will not accept, but continue to be polite and work while you might not see eye to eye with them on those activities, you're clearly outlining what you will and will not do. And therefore they know what to expect of you.DR. NIGEL: People have to be conscious of the decisions they make and the impact. It's rather like Nonviolent Communication, that wonderful book that you've got to be conscious of the language you use and recognize the implications of the language you use. And it's learning something, that things that were invisible suddenly become visible. And I think that's what this is all about. It's making it visible and bring it to the fore of your consciousness, not stick it in the back of your consciousness so you don't notice it.KG:  What are your observations on ethical dilemmas most relevant today? And what's your advice to leaders and professionals in these situations?DR. NIGEL: I just think as a leader, a leader who does not behave ethically, corrupts the whole organization. So I think you have a special responsibility and you may be under the most pressure. And we all know about ways that organizations do things that are not incredibly wrong, but are on the edge. I think if I'm a leader, I've got to have a clear indicator of what I believe. And I make sure the whole organization knows what I believe as well, so that you don't get people further down the organization misbehaving. But if I misbehave, I have no justification whatsoever for stopping anyone else misbehaving. And you tend to find these things cascade. So weakness at the top, ends up weakness throughout the whole organization. Strength at the top, strength all the way through the organization. people need to be proud to work for you. And if they think you're a bit of a scumbag, that you've got very dubious ethics, not much in the way of morals, it's very hard to work your heart out and do your best for someone like that, always. And I always say to leaders, be aware, not of what you say. People say the right thing usually, but be aware that everyone notices what you do. And don't be naive and think that you can do what you like and no one notices. Everybody notices. Everybody notices. So by your actions, are you defined, not by your words, because there can be a massive gap between words and actions. And that's very, very important. And the more the gap between words and actions exists, the more people talk about it, the lower the organization will be pulled, I think.KG: The integrity gap, that's such a powerful thing. That line, you're defined by your actions, not by your words.KG: What is your favorite quote or book or advice that inspired you? Would you like to share that with the audience?DR. NIGEL: Someone quoted Theodore Roosevelt and it's such a simple quote, but it really really affected me and it's a kind of the thing I live by and it said that “The fundamental role of our natural life or the rule which underlines all others is that on the whole and in the long run we shall go up or down together.”DR. NIGEL: I love that idea that we are all in it together and I will be in an organization where as if the people at the top rise, everybody rises. If I rise, so does everyone else. That idea that we're connected, that we're part of a community and that we're not all on our own or I can disengage my success from everyone else's. So I can treat people brutally and be successful. I think that's a very short term view of the world. So I think it is a fundamental rule.DR. NIGEL: GE used to have a quote in their leadership center in Cronenberg and it said, in a rising tide, all boats rise. I completely agree with that. You can be a massive ship or a little boat, little rowing boat. You all rise as the tide rises. And that's what you need to ensure, that you are building a rising tide and that you will ensure that all boats rise, all ships rise. So that quote really goes to the heart of what I believe.KG:  How do you maintain the great quality of your writing and thought leadership?DR. NIGEL: Don't write when I know something. I write when I don't know something. So therefore, I'm plagued by curiosity and doubt and worries. And that's what prompts my writing. So I want to answer a question. I've always got a question. someone said, I don't write when I understand. I write to understand. And that's exactly the same as me. There's always a dilemma at the heart of all of my books. And that's what drives me on. It's like an itch. I need to know, I need to understand that. And when I start researching it and I start to come up with ideas, I then have a compulsion to write them down. So I write a lot.DR. NIGEL: Writing is a habit in a way. If I have to write something, I can just write it. I don't need to worry. I never worry that I can't write. But a lot of people say, but how do you get started? And the answer is you get started by writing. You start writing, that's how you get started. And you just put words on a page and if they're rubbish, I write myself into understanding. So sometimes I write and write and write and at the end of the day, I discard everything apart from the last paragraph because that's my starting point. And that's okay. You write to edit to discard. You don't write to make it perfect. I don't agonize over a single sentence. I just keep writing. And if my writing is terrible, I just throw it away and start again. Because some days your writing will be terrible and some days your writing will be really something you can be proud of. But you can't predict it. But the only thing you can predict is if you write, you will end up writing something. It's as simple as that. REFERENCES & LINKS:DR. NIGEL’s LinkedIN/Website pageLINKEDINNIGELPAINEDR. NIGEL’s Book/Suggested ArticleTHE GREAT RESETNONVIOLENT COMMUNICATIONThe Human Conversation Podcast ChannelsAPPLE PODCASTSSPOTIFY

The Human Conversation with Dr. Nigel Paine

How do today's leaders navigate complex ethical dilemmas while inspiring teams, creating trust, and driving results?Welcome to The Human Conversation Podcast on Leadership and Ethics, a podcast exploring the intersection of leadership, ethics, and organizational culture. Join host Kaumudi Goda as she engages visionary executives, thought leaders, and changemakers in candid conversations about integrity and purpose-driven leadership. You’ll hear perspectives from diverse fields, including business, government, advocacy, academia, and the arts.<ul><li>What guiding principles shape a leader’s approach to ethical challenges?</li><li>How can we foster ethical cultures amid competing priorities?</li><li>Can ethics and profit coexist?</li></ul> Tune in as we tackle these compelling questions and examine leadership case studies from the latest headlines.

How do today's leaders navigate complex ethical dilemmas while inspiring teams, creating trust, and driving results?Welcome to The Human Conversation Podcast on Leadership and Ethics, a podcast exploring the intersection of leadership, ethics, and organizational culture.Join host Kaumudi Goda as she engages visionary executives, thought leaders, and changemakers in candid conversations about integrity and purpose-driven leadership.You’ll hear perspectives from diverse fields, including business, government, advocacy, academia, and the arts.What guiding principles shape a leader’s approach to ethical challenges?How can we foster ethical cultures amid competing priorities?Can ethics and profit coexist?Tune in as we tackle these compelling questions and examine leadership case studies from the latest headlines.

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The Human Conversation Podcast on Leadership and Ethics

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