Episode 19 Psychology professor and author Dr. Mary-Frances O’Connor explains how our expectations encoded in the brain impact our grief when we lose someone we love (through death, divorce, or estrangement). She also illustrates why our brains have to learn over and over that someone is truly gone and why some people experience more intense, persistent and prolonged grief.Dr. Mary-Frances O’Connor is an Associate Professor at the University of Arizona Department of Psychology, where she directs the Grief, Loss, and Social Stress Lab. Her research focuses on the wide-ranging emotional responses to bereavement. Dr. O’Connor also studies difficulties adapting following the death of a loved one, termed prolonged grief. She believes that a clinical science approach toward the experience and physiology of grief can improve psychological treatment. Dr. O’Connor’s recent book, The Grieving Brain: The Surprising Science of How We Learn from Love and Loss has garnered praise from peers and literary critics alike.  Connect with Mary-Frances through her website In this episode, (in order) we talked about…*The impact of time and experiences on the intensity of longing*The grief metaphor of the missing table in a familiar room*Why our brains continue to account for our predictions not being true anymore*Why people avoid spaces after the loss of a loved one or a break-up*The “Gone But Everlasting” theory: why it’s so difficult to learn that our loved ones are gone*How our brains are encoded when we have a bonded relationship with someone*How “Continuing Bonds” work after we’ve lost a loved one (dead or alive)*Prolonged grief: why some people continue to revisit memories of lost loved ones* The difference between wanting and liking and why someone might be more drawn to one feeling over the other*The use of “Yearning in Situations of Loss” scale for those who experience bereavement, a break-up or homesickness*The need for grief education among psychologists, psychiatrists and the general public Quotes“The real world and our internal map of the real world sometimes don’t match up….There are tons of times when you walk into a room and your loved one should be there. The internal map of your world says, ‘My loved one will be there.’ But when they’re not and that expectation is so strong, we often have a very visceral reaction. “I’m not suggesting learning means forgetting….Having new experiences does not mean you are going to forget that close and important relationship you had in those places.”“That encoding, that everlasting belief, is critical when our loved one is alive. That’s what keeps us returning to them. That’s what keeps us seeking them out…When our loved one dies, our brain still believes for a long time that they’re out there somewhere. It’s still reaching for them because it has a solution. And that solution is, ‘Go get them!’ But after a death or a divorce or estrangement, that’s not a solution anymore.”“It is normal many years later to continue to talk about the person and have waves of grief. What is challenging is when those waves of grief (make you feel) like your current life has no purpose without this person. Or you don’t know who you are without this person. Or you feel estranged from the people around you because you feel bitter they haven’t had a loss and you have.”   “Our attachment relationships are as important to our survival as food and water…If someone hasn’t had water for a long time, they’re going to be incredibly thirsty and thinking about water all the time, but you’d never describe them as addicted to water."  

The Longing Lab

Psychologist & grief expert Mary-Frances O'Connor on how our brains learn from love and loss

Episode 18 Psychologist and author Dr. Alexandra Solomon explains how our current low accountability dating culture fosters a collective attachment disorder which individuals sometimes mistake as a personal disorder. She provides practical actions individuals can take to foster a healthy relationship with others and themselves. Solomon also discusses how longing (or limerence) can be a defense mechanism in a culture with a low tolerance for frustration and high expectations for perfection.  Dr. Solomon is a licensed clinical psychologist at The Family Institute at Northwestern University, and she is on faculty in the School of Education and Social Policy at Northwestern University where she teaches the internationally renowned course, Building Loving and Lasting Relationships: Marriage 101. Relational Self-Awareness is the through line in all of her work, particularly her hit podcast, Reimagining Love. In addition to writing articles and chapters for leading academic journals and books in the field of marriage and family, she is the award-winning author of three books, Loving Bravely, Taking Sexy Back, and her latest Love Every Day. Connect with Alexandra through her website In this episode, (in order) we talked about…*How our current high ambiguity & low accountability dating culture is a collective attachment disorder *Self-abandonment that occurs during hookup*Gut checks: questions you could ask yourself before hooking up*The tendency to cut and run at the first sign of trouble: A theme she often sees in clients talking  about relationships*Limerence as a defense mechanism *How social media impacts our expectations in relationships*How our partner is a reflection of us and vice versa*Relational self-awareness*Three things that were present in your family growing up that you want to carry on & three things you don’t want to carry on*How to calm the fear of settling Quotes“I worry about people personalizing that which is systemic. Is it fair to say I’m anxiously attached when what I’m wanting is clarity and consistency in a connection with someone. Is that a disorder on my part, or is that a normative striving?"“Low accountability dating culture is a collective attachment disorder. It’s a lot of people acting as if they could take you or leave you. There’s quite a bit of emotional gymnastics that one has to do to act like I don’t care when I really do, or I don’t need clarity when I really do. Because all of us need some measure of clarity of who am I to you? What are the boundaries and expectations?"Re: hookups: “Acting as if it was meaningless or acting as if I can do this and not think twice about it is a kind of self-abandonment that I worry about.”“If you pull someone near enough to you, they will disappoint you. But if you keep them at arm’s length, then they can stay perfect, and you can stay safe.”“Someone isn’t a better lover because they have six-pack abs. Someone is a better lover because they are present and attentive.”“The heart of a healthy relationship is an ongoing curious and compassionate relationship we have with ourselves so that we are noticing our own reactions.”“I think often times somebody who is longing for a perfect relationship or perfect love, it is a defense against a fear of getting hurt….And by moving away from the longing and actually being willing to engage in a messy human-to-human relationship, I am telling myself that I’m pretty brave and strong and able to handle things that come my way.”“Some of us fall in love and some of us step really freaking carefully into love…there are a lot of us who will never be swept off our feet…There are not better and worse ways to fall in love. There’s 

Psychologist Alexandra Solomon on how our current low accountability dating culture fosters a collective attachment disorder

Episode 17 Sociology professor Dr. Lisa Wade takes a deep dive into the history and results of hookup culture on American college campuses based on her research. She reveals the unspoken rules of hookup culture and how the stalled sexual revolution contributed to hookup culture (and in turn young adults having less sex than their parents). Dr. Lisa Wade is an Associate Professor of Sociology at Tulane University. Dr. Wade&apos;s publication record includes work on college hookup culture, the sociology of the body, and U.S. discourse about female genital cutting. In 2017, she published American Hookup: The New Culture of Sex on Campus based on her research derived from 101 college students’ journals where they wrote about sex and romance on campus.  In the book, Wade maps out a punishing emotional landscape marked by unequal pleasures, competition for status, and sexual violence. She discovers that privileged students tend to enjoy hookup culture the most, and considers its effects on racial and sexual minorities, students who “opt out,” and those who participate ambivalently. Connect with Lisa through her website In this episode, (in order) we talked about…*The pain, danger, freedom, and selfishness involved in hookup culture*The rules of hookup culture*How by the sexual revolution never succeeding in convincing society to value feminine traits it contributed to the creation of the hookup culture*Why hookup culture is distinctly American *How the erotic marketplace and differences in religiosity and economics play a role in who can participate freely in and who is invited and valued into hookup culture *Why being called desperate is worse than being called a prude or a slut*Virginity on campus*What college students are longing for: genuine options Quotes“Most of them (college students hooking up) have this desire for connection, for meaningfulness, for sex that feels  emotionally intimate—those feelings are thwarted by hookup culture and the lack of accountability and ambiguousness is sustained by everyone pretending not to care about each other or actively not caring about each other.”"In America fun and being carefree is really tightly connected in our imaginations. But, in order to have sex where nothing you do can come back upon you and require you to take care of others, you have to have it be careless as well as carefree. This is a tricky thing to accomplish given that we know sex is often extremely emotional.""You can flirt and be friendly before a hookup, but during a hookup sex should be hot but not warm. Extended eye contact, caressing, and slow kissing (traits considered feminine) is off script in hookup culture. Sex is supposed to be great but not sweet. “By far the most heartsick people in my research were a couple guys, a straight guy and a gay guy, who really desired to have emotional experiences and struggled to find them.”“Students hookup less and have more criticism of hookup culture as they go through their college experience.” "When the daughters of the women who were young adults in the 60s and 70s got to college in the mid-1990s, they applied the logic that women’s liberation is the right to do anything men do. You apply that to sexuality and you get hookup culture." “There really isn’t a pathway for a relationship that doesn’t go through this hookup period."  “Hookup culture isn’t about hooking up with someone you like. It’s about hooking up with someone your friends are going to be impressed by. It’s about status.”“If you have to jump into the deep end to have sex at all, then it makes sense that people are having less sex than before because it’s scarier.”

Sociology professor Lisa Wade on the rules of hookup culture and how it stemmed from a stalled sexual revolution

Episode 16 Purity culture recovery coach Linda Kay Klein explains how difficult it is to shed the teachings of purity culture. Using her personal experience and those of the many women she interviewed for her book, Linda discusses how purity culture encouraged longing for a perfect mate, how repression of emotions manifests in our bodies, and how to develop an endoskeleton of sexual ethics.Linda Kay Klein is author of Pure: Inside the Evangelical Movement that Shamed a Generation of Young Women and How I Broke Free. Today, she is a purity culture recovery coach, and the founder and president Break Free Together, a not-for-profit organization serving individuals recovering from gender- and sexuality-based religious trauma. Linda has spoken around the world from various TEDx stages to The Apollo’s Women of the World Festival. Her work has been featured by over 150 outlets, including the New York Times, NPR, CBS, NBC, and Elle Magazine. Linda is a trained Our Whole Lives (OWL) sexuality education facilitator, and holds an interdisciplinary Masters degree in gender, sexuality and religion from New York University. Linda has one daughter in diapers and another in college. She is married to a writer and social change agent who inspires her every day.  Connect with Linda through her websiteIn this episode, (in order) we talked about…*Ways in which purity culture encouraged longing for an ideal partner*How “Letters to My Future Husband” set women up for disappointment*What is virginity and what is sex (what we count and what we don’t)*How even after leaving the evangelical church, she couldn&apos;t escape purity culture*How purity culture encouraged perfect performance for reward*To be wanted but not savored*Why and how she wrote her book Pure*How she developed a formula to help others heal from purity culture*How repression of her emotions manifested in her body *An exoskeleton versus an endoskeleton model of sexual ethics*Forms of purity culture (not just Christian)Quotes“I had very specific expectations for what sex meant based on having grown up in purity culture…Not only was it penis and vagina, it was sex that was spiritual, deeply loving, and wildly pleasurable…with that man I’d been longing for—that perfect man, that forever man, that destined man.” "The whole time I was in purity culture, I was called a stumbling clock, a thing over which men and boys could trip. I felt like there were eyes on me all around assessing me, and I came up short."“I would try to have sexual exploration with my long-term boyfriend, and I would break into tears. My eczema would come out from the stress, and I would be scratching until I bled. As we started to get anywhere close to having sex, I started taking pregnancy tests out of fear…”"I no longer walk around with shame, fear, and anxiety…but it still lies there dormant waiting for it to be triggered." "As I’ve worked more on recovery work, I see it all the time: lots of back issues, lots of stomach issues, and other physical issues associated with repression of our emotions, choices and selves...those internal muscles tightening, saying, “Don’t let yourself come out!” "In order to have an endoskeleton sexual ethic, we need to have actual thought processes around our sexual decisions….and safe supportive places to talk about it with people who aren’t so ashamed they can’t look it square in the face." Resources mentioned:When the Body Says No by Gabor Mate and The Body Keeps the Score by Bessel van der Kolk

Break Free Together founder Linda Kay Klein on the damage caused by purity culture and what recovery involves

Episode 15 Author Laura Carney reflects on how years of longing to belong restricted her, but learning to say, “yes,” to completing her late father’s bucket list, set her free from a false narrative. In this intimate interview, Carney discusses luck, spirituality, grief, true love, and trust. When author Laura Carney discovered her father’s bucket list 13 years after he’d been killed by a distracted teen driver, she decided she’d complete the list to honor him. What she didn’t understand was in doing so she’d learn to honor herself. The story became her recently published book, My Father’s List: How Living My Dad’s Dreams Set Me Free. Laura is a journalist and copy editor in New York. She&apos;s been published by the Washington Post, the Associated Press, The Hill, Runner&apos;s World, People magazine, Guideposts, Good Housekeeping, The Fix, Upworthy, and Maria Shriver’s Sunday Paper. Her work as a copy editor has been primarily in magazines, for 20 years. Connect with Laura through her website bylauracarney.comIn this episode, (in order) we talked about…*How she became an advocate for spreading the word on distracted driving*How and why she “faked normal” while grieving her father’s death*What the movie Back to the Future has to do with redefining the truth about our family and ourselves*The timeline from when her father died to when she learned of the list to when she completed it*Why her father’s absence at her wedding triggered grief all over again*Why both positions (up or down) of horseshoes are different perspectives of luck*Ways in which she felt she was being primed to complete the list years prior to learning it existed*Why becoming a runner was one of the best things she ever did*How committing to saying “yes” freed her*The items on the list of 60 that were the most difficult to accomplish*How her father’s list changed her sense of spirituality *How she kept meeting strangers who distinctly reminded her of her dad *How she relied on signs (often from strangers) *Her writing ritual and how the writing process went the way she needed it to go not the way she expected *Advice she has for people who want to accomplish a loved one’s last wishes  Quotes“I developed a difficult relationship with uncertainty, so I narrowed in on perfectionism.”“The desire to be seen as normal, that was really all I wanted—all the time. I thought if you weren’t seen as normal, you weren’t safe. It was a longing to belong.”“When I said yes to the list, my soul was saying yes, yes, yes. I saw my dad’s face in the back of my mind nodding and smiling.  I hadn’t had that kind of connection before.”“I was avoiding the story I needed to tell because it was too difficult to tell. Saying yes to the list was the first step... As I learned to say yes, over and over again, I was letting go of the need to be accepted by other people—that longing...”“If we have any part of our parents that we feel we can’t trust, it becomes more difficult for us to learn how to trust ourselves, especially when we’re in their shoes.”“The person (my husband) fell in love with was the girl inside of me who is the real me, not the woman who had so many layers of insecurity, who had become conditioned by the patriarchy to become desirable, like I had no worth as a woman unless I was wanted.”"There’s a difference between longing for something you don’t have because you want to fill an emptiness-- wanting that because it will make you feel better about yourself—that’s an ego pursuit. But feeling called to do something is different because that’s your heart calling you…When you trust your heart fully, you can’t get lost.

My Father's List author Laura Carney on how completing her late father's bucket list set her free from longing to belong

Episode 14: Known in New York City circles as "The Wedding Doctor," Dr. Jocelyn Charnas describes how she helps clients navigate wedding planning and maintain the focus on their relationship/marriage while wading through decision fatigue, feelings of loss, and the unrealistic expectations set forth by social media.Dr. Jocelyn Charnas is a clinical psychologist in private practice in New York City. She treats adults with depression, anxiety, interpersonal difficulties, relationship and adjustment problems, phase-of-life issues, and maladaptive behaviors. She works both with individuals and with couples at a variety of relationship phases including dating, engagement, marriage, divorce contemplation, post-marriage, and co-parenting. Dr. Charnas’ work has been published in several journals including Training and Education in Professional Psychology, GROUP, International Journal of Testing, and Psychotherapy Theory, Research, Practice, Training. She has been interviewed for The New York Times, Women&apos;s Health, Elle, Glamour, The Huffington Post, CBS.com, TheKnot.com, and Weddings Illustrated. Connect with Dr. Charnas through her LinkedIn profileIn this episode, (in order) we talked about…*How and why she started her business catering to brides and engaged couples*The pitfalls of idealization that come with Pinterest and Instagram when wedding planning*Normalizing the idea of disappointment and the inevitable letdown after the wedding*How to keep the focus on the relationship and marriage during wedding planning *How to deal with decision fatigue and all the cooks in the kitchen during wedding planning*How she teaches her clients to be critical thinkers and not get sucked in by marketing*The mix of emotions at a wedding, an event that naturally involves lossQuotes: “The attainable part (of longing) is what’s interesting to me because it makes longing an endless loop.” “This idea of perfection is baked into even the most fundamental primary concept of a wedding that it’s supposed to be the best day of your life. Even just that notion puts unrealistic expectations on it”“It (social media) makes us feel that if we don’t achieve that beauty or perfection, not only are we failing, but we aren’t as good as everyone else who seems to be achieving it.”“We have to throw out the idea that it’s possible to avoid disappointment…Feeling it is ok. It’s normal to feel deflation after any important milestone in our lives that we’re dedicating a tremendous amount of energy and emotion and time to.”“This concept of the wedding as the goal or the end—think about how many fairy tales, Disney movies and rom-coms end with the wedding…when that’s such a distortion. The wedding is the beginning of a marriage and life together. I spend a lot of time with my patients trying to reframe it that way.”“It’s impossible to please everyone, but when we zoom in and think about the things that please ourselves and please our partners and satisfy our needs it’s a smaller scope. It’s such good practice for marriage.”"I spend a lot of time with couples to uncover and tune into what about the wedding is a representation of you two. That seems to help with decision fatigue."“They (the industries that fuel the wedding industry) have a vested interest in keeping us longing.”"The pandemic shrunk people’s world...It gave an interesting window into what happens when we have less access to the outside world, and we are more tuned into what we feel inside and what’s important to us.” “Any life transition, any phase of life change, any milestone always has an associated element of loss…because we are leaving something behind.”

"The Wedding Doctor," psychologist Jocelyn Charnas on how longing for the "perfect day" prevents focusing on the relationship

Episode 13: Award-winning neuroscientist Zoe Donaldson explains her research on how romantic bonds in prairie voles are encoded in the brain. She specifically looks at what happens the moment a prairie vole decides to reunite with its partner over another.Dr. Zoe Donaldson is an Associate Professor of Neuroscience at the University of Colorado Boulder where she is the recipient of the NIH New Innovator and the NSF CAREER awards, among others. She joined the faculty after completing a Ph.D. in Neuroscience from Emory University and pursuing post-doctoral training at Columbia University. She studies how close social bonds, such as those that mediate friendships and romantic love, are encoded in the brain. In order to understand the cells and molecules that make bonding possible, her lab uses monogamous prairie voles. Unlike rats and mice, these rodents forms lifelong pair bonds between mates akin to human romantic partnerships. By examining the neurobiology underlying these bonds and what happens when they are lost, she hopes to identify novel treatments for psychiatric and neurodevelopmental disorders. This interview takes place in her office (apologies in advance for less than ideal sound quality) following a tour of her lab. Learn more about Dr. Donaldson through her lab or hereIn this episode, (in order) we talked about…*Desire versus motivation *The role of the nucleus accumbens (part of the brain involved in choices) in longing*Why prairie voles are used for their ability to create lifelong bonds with their mating partners*Why her lab compares friendships to romantic partner bonds in voles*What’s happening in the brain when a prairie vole decides to run to reunite with its partner over a different vole*One scientist studying the genetics of cheating prairie voles vs faithful ones*How her 1st opportunity to design her own experiment contributed to her interest in studying motivation in the brain*What happens in the voles’ brain when they aren’t given access to their partner*The debate on pathologizing grief*What if we could train our brain to adapt better to grief just as we can to overcome phobias Quotes:“Longing is the motivation to have something what you want you can’t have immediately.”“The stronger the bond, the more cells that are active as they are making that decision to approach their partner.” “Instead of asking, &apos;Is it stressful to lose your partner?&apos; because the answer is yes, let’s focus on what makes grief different that any other stressful or traumatic experience."“The National Institute of Health defines loss as a state of deprivation from a motivationally significant person or thing.”“We can grieve things we never had.”“Yearning is the core feature of grief….And we know that biologically, there is something specifically different about yearning because the behavioral therapies and pharmacotherapies that are efficacious in treating major depression don’t do anything to touch yearning related symptoms and grief. "“Yearning is a state of frustration that emerges from having a desire that is unfulfilled.”“They start to get dopamine released when they press the lever, in anticipation of the reward they are about to get. They get more dopamine released when they reunite with their partner than they do with the novel vole. So, there’s some part of the brain that says, your partner is really rewarding, you get extra dopamine when you try to reunite with them.”“I don’t think love addiction is a medically relevant term, but there are instances when attachments can become unhealthy.” 

Neuroscientist Zoe Donaldson on romantic pair bonds & what yearning looks like in the brain

Episode 12: Center for Prolonged Grief founder, Dr. Katherine Shear untangles the differences between prolonged grief disorder and more typical integrated grief. She explains why longing is at the heart of grief and the importance in accepting a changed relationship with the lost loved one. Dr. M. Katherine Shear is the Marion E. Kenworthy Professor of Psychiatry and the founding Director of the Center for Prolonged Grief at Columbia University School of Social Work. Dr. Shear is a clinical researcher who first worked in anxiety and depression. For the past 25 years, she has focused on understanding and treating people who experience persistent, intense grief, which is now an official diagnosis called Prolonged Grief Disorder in the ICD-11 and DSM-5. She developed and tested Prolonged Grief Disorder Therapy, a short-term, strength-based intervention that helps foster adaptation to loss and confirmed its efficacy in three large National Institute of Mental Health-funded studies. She’s developed several widely used assessment instruments and a Prolonged Grief Disorder Treatment instruction manual.Learn more about Dr. Shear at https://socialwork.columbia.edu/faculty-research/faculty/full-time/m-katherine-shear/In this episode, (in order) we talked about…*The difference between desire and longing*The difference between usual continuing grief (or integrated grief) and prolonged grief disorder*The six healing milestones in adapting to loss through therapy she developed*Why the terms for the disorder she has researched changed over time from unresolved grief to traumatic grief to complicated grief to prolonged grief*How you learn to long for a lost loved one without it becoming debilitating*What she learned about how grief impacts the body from studying maternal-infant separation *The long-term impact her first experience with grief  had on her*Why the therapy she developed encourages people to speak to dead loved ones*How prolonged grief disorder can show up with any meaningful loss (death, divorce, natural disaster)*The relationship between our brain’s nucleus accumbens and the emotion of longing Quotes:“Longing is the heart of grief. It’s the presence of absence and the absence of presence.”“Prolonged grief is when acute grief dominates our mind and our life. “When we lose someone close there are measurable changes in our cardiovascular and neuro-endocrine systems.”“Our close relationships are literally mapped in our brains in the form of all different kinds of memories (explicit and implicit).” “Grief is like a snowflake: no two experiences are exactly the same.” “I had been very afraid of death most of my life. But after my cousin died, shortly after I started doing this work, I thought, I don’t have to be afraid of dying…because she is there. So, wherever she is, it’s ok, because I’ll be with her...This changed relationship was interesting in that it didn’t require her to be physically present therefore it didn’t require me to be physically present, so it was easy to imagine it continuing into eternity.”“When it (longing) takes up too much space in your mind and it interferes with your ability to restore your capacity to thrive or accept the reality you’re in, it’s like someone’s got you by the heels—you can’t move forward, you can’t connect with other people, you can’t connect with even yourself ...because you are preoccupied with something that’s gone.”“Longing is a paradoxical emotion that contains presence and absence, and it also contains pleasure and pain.” Resources: Prolonged grief assessments and tools on the Center for Prolonged Grief website

Psychiatrist and prolonged grief expert Dr. Katherine Shear on how longing is the heart of grief

Episode 11: Award-winning science journalist & author Florence Williams shares insights she learned during her journey through the heartbreak of her divorce and writing a memoir about it. She discusses the physical impacts heartbreak has on our bodies and how our openness to beauty aids in our recovery.  When her 25-year marriage ended, Florence Williams said she felt “axed in the heart” and like her body had been “plugged into an electrical socket.” Her latest award-winning book, Heartbreak: A Personal and Scientific Journey, chronicles the exploration of her own heartbreak and that of others. Florence’s writing has appeared in the New York Times, National Geographic, Outside, and numerous other outlets. She’s also the author of The Nature Fix: How Nature Makes Us Happier, Healthier, and More Creative.  Florence is a certified forest-therapy guide and leads retreats focused on building a nurturing and reciprocal relationship with nature. Connect with Florence on Instagram @florence99 or learn more about her on her website http://www.florencewilliams.com/In this episode, (in order) we talked about…*Different kinds of heartbreak: personal, geographical and collective*How our cells listen for loneliness and other ways our bodies respond to heartbreak *Why people who go through divorce have an increased risk for several diseases*The difference between how her body reacted to her mom’s death & her divorce*How long it takes to recover from heartbreak *Why it’s important to spend enough time healing after trauma like heartbreak*The Museum of Broken Relationships & ritualizing our breakups *How our openness to beauty makes us more resilient and how to micro-dose on awe*The process of writing her book as she was grappling with her heartbreak   Quotes: “If you feel lonely and unsupported, your nervous system is going to respond to that by pumping out more inflammation….Our bodies know we are more at risk for threat when we feel lonely.” “There was no one thing that made me feel instantly better. Research shows on average it takes four years for people who are divorced to return to baseline health…And for some people it’s going to take longer…There’s no one way to grieve.” “One of the myths I bust in the book is that you shouldn’t start another relationship too soon or that you need to heal before you go back out there in the dating world. I don’t think that’s true. You never really get to a point where you are fully healed, so you might as well do that healing with someone else if you can find someone else who is going to be supportive.”“The beauty in life is in the growth that happens after trauma. When we can open our hearts back up, then we can realize our full humanity." “We know from brain imaging studies that people who are more prone to awe also have more connections in different parts of their brains. There’s some ability they have to take their own personal pain and put it in perspective. That really does help them get through the suffering.” “People who are parts of our lives, they’re always going to be parts of our lives. You don’t just hit a switch and they’re gone.”Order Florence’s book, Heartbreak: A Personal & Scientific Journey hereLearn more about the Museum of Broken Relationships hereLet&apos;s connect: www.amandajmccracken.com   

Journalist Florence Williams on the science of heartbreak and healing nature of awe

Episode 10: Cassie Fulmer Brown discusses longing in relationship to her five-year battle with breast cancer and why it’s important to “Go small and go now!”Five years ago, Cassie Fulmer Brown got her first mammogram at age 40 despite having no signs or symptoms of cancer. She was diagnosed with ERPR-positive and HER2-negative breast cancer. Following the diagnosis, Cassie and her husband David drastically changed their lifestyles (quitting their jobs and selling their house) to fight the cancer. Cassie left her high-stress market researcher position in the consumer-packaged goods industry. Now, she and her husband travel around the country and share their adventures on their YouTube channel Cissy and Bud. When Cassie isn’t dealing with cancer treatments or traveling, she’s boating, reading, doing yoga, or busy being a stepmom. She is a promoter of and speaker for Pink Ribbon Girls. Connect with Cassie on Instagram @cissyandbud In this episode, (in order) we talked about…*Cassie’s journey with cancer from the first diagnosis  to the second diagnosis and the actions she’s taken (surgeries, drugs, chemo, radiation) *How both she and her husband changed their lifestyles to decrease stress once diagnosed*How cancer has strengthened her relationship with her husband and family *Her approach to sharing her story on social media *Advice she has for someone going through a cancer diagnosis *The “Tara List” that grew into the “Cassie List” *What you can do to support a friend going through breast cancer  *How her genetic testing results prompted her to do the double mastectomy  *The photo shoot she did before the mastectomy*The importance of self-breast exams despite varying medical opinions *The good and the bad in going through cancer treatment the second time around *How she now makes small adventures out of everything Quotes:  “When I think about the life before cancer, I wish I could fall asleep without worrying if the cancer is going to spread or come back....The biggest thing (I long for) would be my body pre-cancer, before the surgeries and chemo and other drugs I take. But I try not to stay there too long because I know I can’t get that back.” “We both quit our jobs. He wanted to be able to go to every appointment with me. He likes to call it a sabbatical to fight cancer.” “I’ve also had two people get mammograms because of my diagnosis who were then diagnosed as well. So, they were happy they went and got an early diagnosis. I like when people reach out to me like that because it helps me to have something positive come from such a negative experience.”“If you know anyone going through cancer, or anything hard in life, say something. Say anything. The only caveat I would say would be try not to tell them a story of someone who died from cancer…. even if it’s a different kind of cancer. Just keep that one to yourself.” “Don’t say anything to a breast cancer patient on getting a boob job. It’s not what it is. It’s a major surgery…It’s not like you’re going to have this new set that’s going to look fabulous. It’s definitely emotional.” “Wear it now, do it now. I have this necklace that David gave to me on my wedding day I used to never wear. Now I barely even take it off. I don’t know what I was saving it for.” “I’m constantly scanning my body. So I’m more aware of my body because I have to be.”Resources mentioned in this episode: Cassie’s favorite post-surgery pajama top: Soma Cool Nights The book that made Cassie go vegan: How Not to Die by Michael Greger M.D. Great caps for when you&apos;re bald:  www.chemobeanies.com  Let&apos;s connect: www.amandajmccracken.com

Breast Cancer Survivor Cassie Fulmer Brown on longing, living, and loving

Episode 9: In this Valentine’s Day special, Dave speaks with Amanda about how their relationship developed from meeting to getting married, the pivotal moments during their 11-month-courtship, and the importance of seeing a couple’s therapist.  Dave  Butler is my husband, life partner, and the father of our child Moorea. He is also an environmental scientist, project manager, and geologist. Originally from Long Island, Dave was a drummer in a NYC-based band called Nuclear Cream Cheese. He is an ultra mountain trail runner, a New York Yankees fan, and a reformed Catholic.  In this episode, (in order) we talked about…*How longing transpires in our lives*How we met each other before we really met each other*The questionable rebound zone*Our first date and our first kiss (his firsts in 20 years)*His “freedom tour" plan following his divorce*Communicating versus playing games in relationships (work or personal)*How he first met my parents and grandma in Ohio without me*His first response to learning I was a 40-year-old virgin*Visiting our respective therapists together in the first two months of dating*Our four-day trip to Paris*The moments we revealed our love for each other in spoken and written word*Our response to having sex for the first time together*The marriage proposal*Why we see a therapist once a month*Dangers and benefits in comparing past relationships *Advice he’ll give our daughter on love and relationships  Let&apos;s connect: www.amandajmccracken.com

Valentine Special: My husband Dave Butler on relationships, intimacy, and vulnerability

Episode 8: Hillary Allen explains how longing, through the lens of perfectionism, can positively fuel athletes or destroy them.Hillary Allen is a professional ultra trail runner for Brooks and a gravel cyclist for Scuderia Pinarello. Hillary has raced all over the world excelling in a discipline known as Skyrunning. She earned the nickname "Hillygoat" for her ability to run fast on steep and technical terrain. Over the course of her career she has racked wins and course records from the 50km distance all the way to 100 mile trail races. However, in 2017 Hillary had a life-threatening accident where she fell 150 feet off of a ridge-line during a race in Tromsø, Norway, breaking 14 bones and being told she would never run again. After an intense recovery period, she not only returned to running but she’s back on the podium again! Hillary  has her masters in neuroscience and physiology. Connect with Hillary at www.hillaryallen.comIn this episode, (in order) we talked about…*The relationship between longing and endurance sports*Her life-threatening 150-foot fall at a race where she was ranked number one*How the accident changed her relationship with perfectionism*How talk therapy helps rewire our brains *Her struggle in college with an eating disorder*Techniques to personify characteristics like fear and perfectionism*The hardest part of her recovery: comparing herself to her former self*Falling in love with the process, not just focusing on the goal*“Death before DNF”*How longing has motivated her training and racing*The importance of perpetually being in the present moment Quotes: “As an ultra trail runner and gravel cyclist, I have this insatiable curiosity to determine the limits of my potential as it relates to travel on foot in these 100-mile races through the mountains or on two wheels through the gravel roads...” “With one step the ground gave way beneath my feet and the horizon was spinning upside down….I remember the world slowing down….I remember hitting the side of the mountain several times before I passed out along the way.”“I remember longing to know if I was ok. I knew I was moving my legs, so I wasn’t paralyzed. But I’d never seen that look of fear in faces I knew before. I was convinced I was dying. I remember asking in the helicopter if I was going to be ok…There was an unbearable since of urgency.”“I want to be excellent. I was faced with the reality that that might not happen ever again.”“(Perfectionism) can be my biggest asset and my worst enemy.”“I was holding myself up to a standard that wasn’t realistic, in particular for my body, and for anyone in general. I was able to realize it was unhealthy. It was exhausting to live inside my mind.”“We are in this world where we are defined by our last best result….Something that has helped me (as a goal oriented person) is to fall in love with the process. Each day is an opportunity to be my best.” “I’m asked the question, ‘Is it really worth killing yourself, literally or figuratively, to go after a goal?’…To me that’s an invitation to ask, ‘WHY do you want to do something? Is it for interval validation or external validation? How far are you willing to sacrifice parts of yourself to reach the goal?’”“Knowing that, regardless whether you finish or not, you’re still a worthwhile person, is very difficult….It&apos;s the ultimate wisdom and freedom to be able to walk away from something knowing you’re not a worse person for not finishing said task." Hillary&apos;s timeless mantra: "Believe in the best athletic days ahead of you." Let&apos;s connect: www.amandajmccracken.com

Professional Ultra Runner Hillary Allen on finding value in yourself beyond performance

Episode 7: Nika Kabiri speaks about the role longing plays in decision-making in both healthy and unhealthy ways, how to deal with anticipatory regret, and when to address inaction inertia.  Nika Kabiri has spent over 20 years studying how people make decisions in a variety of contexts, from relationships to business to politics. She is an author and speaker who’s written for The Hill, been featured in Fast Company and Yahoo!, and quoted in The Washington Post. Her website, yournextdecision.com, offers practical advice to people seeking to make better decisions for a better life. Nika has a PhD in Sociology, with a focus on choice theory, as well as a JD. Connect with Nika at: https://www.yournextdecision.com/In this episode, (in order) we talked about…*How emotions impact decision making*The role of the gut in decision making, and when to strictly rely on your gut*Decisions with a high or a low tolerance for error*Decision fatigue in relation to the pandemic and why we relied on conspiracy theories*Setting boundaries around decisions to protect your mental health*The connection between longing and the scarcity trap*How to overcome the fear of regret *How culture tricks us into believing we are in control of outcomes*How to respond to those who tell you you’re an overthinker*Why we should look for information, not advice, from our friends*How inaction inertia keeps us from changing our decision-making patterns*The difference between a decision-making scientist and a therapistQuotes: “Longing is an emotional reaction to experiencing a gap between where you crave to be and where you are. It’s the emotional experience you feel when that gap seems insurmountable.”“I like to think of longing as a data point. One bit of information you need to consider as you decide how to move through your life. If you experience a longing, you have to pay attention to it.” “When people say, ‘I have to live my best me,’ and ‘I have to follow my bliss,’---it drives me up a wall. It’s insensitive. The reality is people rely on you to survive in a way, and you can’t ignore that.”“When we are in a situation of uncertainty, that’s when we start to use heuristics (mental shortcuts) rather than relying on information.”“Longing can be a very comfortable place to be (when there are unknowns). We tend to fear regrets and risks. We get stuck in longing because we don’t know what decisions to make along the way."“For a long time I longed for a particular house. Now I have it. I longed for a particular type of career. Now I have it. It feels worse to not have that longing for it. I want to long for something else now. It’s made me realize that longing may be part of that human experience. To be satisfied, to me anyways, doesn’t feel as great as feeling hungry.” “The perfect outcome is probably unattainable. Your goal should be to maximize your chances. That’s about the process and not the outcomes. It’s about, ‘What can I do in the process of making a decision to make the (desired) outcome as likely as possible?’”“Blame is an answer to, &apos;Why did something happen?&apos; We think we need answers because the more we feel we understand, the more we feel we have control over the future decisions we make…If you constantly think about YOUR next decision, then you don’t have to be mired in all the blame, shame and meaning making.”“If you find yourself making a certain decision over and over again, the likelihood of making that same decision is more likely in the future….The question is how much do you want to override that tendency for a better life.” Let’s connect: www.amandajmccracken.com

Decision Scientist Nika Kabiri on how longing influences our decisions

Episode 6: Veterinarian Bob Irmiger talks about mourning a sick pet before they&apos;re even gone, the agonizing decision to euthanize a pet, the process of euthanasia, and how you know when it’s time to let go.  Dr. Bob Irmiger intimately knows the longing pet owners experience before and after euthanizing a loved one. I know from personal experience. Last May, Dr. Bob came to our home to help us release our Shih Tzu&apos;s spirit from her ailing body. For over 40 years, Dr. Bob has been caring for pets throughout their life spans. After graduating with honors from Michigan State University’s College of Veterinary Medicine, he accepted an intern position in small animal medicine and surgery at the University of Illinois. Upon completion of his internship, Dr. Irmiger moved to Boulder, Colorado in 1982. He has practiced in the Denver/Boulder area for 40 years. He is currently semi-retired and operating a house-call service. Irmiger has been married for 44 years to his wife, Sally Irmiger. Together they have two children, three grandchildren, two border collies and two shelter dogs.  In this episode, we talked about…*Worrying you’ve decided to euthanize your pet too soon or too late*The insensitive things friends unintentionally say*How you know when it’s time to say goodbye*How some dogs will hide their pain to hang on longer*The process of euthanizing a pet and the body’s natural responses *How sometimes people just need to be given permission to let go*Dogs’ spirits leaving their bodies prior to medically passing*How longing can impact your decision to keep your pet alive longer than, perhaps, you should*Why you shouldn’t worry about making your vet comfortable during euthanasia*How losing a pet can be more traumatic than losing a parent or spouse*Advice for euthanizing a pet with kids around*Resources for dealing with the grief of losing a petQuotes: “I’ve had people six months or even a year later check in to see if they’d made the right decision…In most cases, they aren’t doing it too soon.” “Some dogs are worn out. Those are the ones that are difficult to know if it’s time.”“Losing the cat was more difficult than losing her husband. She had time to adjust to her husband dying of cancer… the cat’s death was sudden.”“Twenty percent of people call and say they aren’t ready after they’ve made an appt for euthanasia and then they apologize for bothering me. Don’t worry about me.”“I have had people who haven’t been able to pet their dog in weeks because the pet has been in so much pain. With the sedative they’re able to pet them. So, people get time to be with their pet.” “I am more likely to wait too long than any of my clients I take care of. The day before I had to treat her [his own dog] with medication, she was hiding from me because she was sick of me trying to keep her alive.”“Most vets get kinda stupid when it’s their own pet. It’s easy to give people advice when it’s not your pet.”“I’ve learned a lot from hospice nurses. In vet school we weren’t taught how to put a pet to sleep—in terms of how to help people with the loss.” Resources: https://vet.osu.edu/vmc/companion/our-services/honoring-bond-support-resources-pet-ownersLet’s connect: www.amandajmccracken.com 

Veterinarian Bob Irmiger on deciding to euthanize a pet & how longing impacts this decision

Episode 5: Writer Tawny Lara speaks about her own sobriety journey, how she became known as the Sober Sexpert, and the benefits to booze-free sex, dating and relationships.  With the help of yoga, meditation, therapy, and writing, Tawny Lara quit drinking in 2015 right before her 30th birthday.  But she says she found that she didn’t know how to date without alcohol. The now 36-year-old NYC-based millennial known as The Sober Sexpert is writing a book called Dry Humping: a Guide to Booze-Free Sex, Dating, and Relationships (Quirk, Summer 2023), a guide book, she says she needed when got sober. Her work is featured in Playboy, Men&apos;s Health, Huffington Post, and two essay collections: Sex and the Single Woman (Harper Perennial 2022) and The Addiction Diaries (LaunchPad 2020). She is the co-host of Recovery Rocks podcast and story developer for the Webby-award winning podcast, F*cking Sober.Connect with Tawny at: www.tawnylara.com In this episode, we talked about… The biphasic effect of alcoholThe social and physical benefits of booze-free sex, dating, and relationships Tawny’s journey to sobriety How being a bartender impacted who and how she datedThe false notion of liquid courageWhy you shouldn’t use alcohol to power through sex or mask your sexual identityHow alcohol encourages false longings and numbs true longingsDisassociation during sexWhy it’s important to know what you like and do not like sexually while soberWhy alcohol neurologically makes it hard to truly connect with someoneSober dating ideas (hint: add movement)Quotes: "Binge drinking, that’s just what you do when you are a bar tender.  I was the weird girl bringing shots to a table of people who just wanted to have a glass of wine. ""I didn’t have sober hook ups. And even if I was sober when sleeping with my partners, we were probably hung over or going out for drinks later that night.""When I’m talking about sober sex and dating, it’s not just removing alcohol from the equation but examining the role alcohol plays in your sex, dating, and love life." "Alcohol can numb your longing and also give you a false longing. You might want something drunk that you don’t want when you’re sober.""When I removed myself from the bar scene, I quickly learned who were my friends and who were my drinking buddies.""I am bisexual and I embraced my bisexuality in sobriety. I had several queer friends who have come out in sobriety. It’s common.""The most important part of sober dating is spending time dating yourself, figure out who you are without alcohol, what you like and don’t like.""I woke up one day and realized that my drinking was standing in the way of me working on my writing. TV and film make it seem like you have to lose everything before you quit drinking. I saw where my life was going and didn’t want to go there, so I got ahead of it."Resources: Sober Dating 101: A Guide to Romance and Sex to the Newly SoberLet&apos;s Connect: www.amandajmccracken.com

Sober Sexpert Writer Tawny Lara on the benefits of booze-free sex & dating

Do you ever find yourself so fixated on longing that you can’t enjoy the present? Longing for a lover, an exotic destination, a lost loved one, or a past time in your life? The Longing Lab takes a deeper look at the science of longing and the culture that drives us to long for what we don’t have. You can expect insightful conversations with individuals uniquely qualified to talk about longing. Host, Amanda McCracken, has written or spoken about her own addiction to longing in national publications like the New York Times, Washington Post, & the BBC. The goal of the Longing Lab is to inspire individuals to make positive changes in their lives.

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The Longing Lab

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