This week we talk about divisiveness at work. Divisive opinions at work are an example of divisiveness in the world ... people seem to be on one side or the other of so many issues, and we can’t remember a time when people have been so polarized. We love the saying “Let’s agree to disagree." -- thank you David Campt for going deeper on that with us in Episode 52 (https://realjobtalk.com/52-coming-together-to-end-2020-with-david-campt) -- and we try to use it whenever possible. By diviseness, we’re talking about when there are different camps who don’t come together - or people who like to make work political. We agree that good leaders help build alignment and cohesiveness. Building respect around the mission -- and a leader who demands respectful interaction -- helps to bring people together to work towards common goals. Taking a time out can also work. When you’re feeling emotional, take a time out and find a time to talk it through at another time. Some roles that these dividers can take at work: The Whisperer. You know them: the person who goes cube to cube whispering (but they don't go to SOME people’s cubes) or is calling ⅔ of the team members. This person who promotes exclusivity and in- vs out-groups. This person might recommend you say something in a meeting, but when you stick your neck out, they don’t back you up. The Exhausted person. When we’re fried, we’re not as resilient, and we’re not our best selves ... so sometimes stress and lack of resilience brings out bad behavior. The Bully. They need boundaries or they will run over everyone, so you need to push back or they’ll get out of control. Shout out to Sarah Noll Wilson in Episode 26 (https://realjobtalk.com/26-leadership-training-neurodiversity-sarah-noll-wilson) and her call to leadership to go deeper and see their people as HUMANS and to teammates who acknowledge stress and offer to help/cover and work together to take a minute. If your team is divided, you can talk with your leadership privately to tell them what you’re seeing and ask for help in bringing people together. How do you work with a divisive person? Try to talk 1:1, document divisive behavior, try to align with everyone in the group in hopes that others won’t exclude you. Raise your hand to show that you’re capable and want to work with others. Humor is a great way to diffuse a tough work situation. Making people laugh can really bring stress levels down. When nothing is working, talk with your boss and ask for suggestions of how we can work together. Sometimes things get heated, and it’s ok to take some time off and come back when you’re calm. Write the emotional email as a journal entry, and then write another that’s kind, compassionate, and helpful with the goal towards working together.

Real Job Talk

Episode 72: Divisiveness at work

We have a letter from a listener who doesn’t think they reacted properly when a colleague quit. They reacted with a big “Really? Why? I thought you liked it here!?!” and then felt like a bad colleague when the person looked visibly uncomfortable and showed them that they’d overstepped. For the colleague, we referenced Episode 55 “The Art of Quitting”. We discussed why the person might have quit that had nothing to do with the workplace or were reasons they didn’t want to share. Things like a personal illness or illness of a family member, or maybe the person is being quietly harassed and wants to get away. Whatever the reason, it’s that person’s to tell and not ours to ask. So when a colleague quits, your response is, “Wow - I’ve really enjoyed working together, and I will miss having you on the team.” Use the opportunity to share words of appreciation and gratitude for how the person has supported you. Wish them well and offer to help with the transition. It’s 100% up to the person who is quitting to share why they quit, where they are going, and how they came to the decision. No questions. No matter how curious you are. Ultimately, it’s none of your business. AND, if it is a work issue that you don’t know about, the knowledge could impact your work experience. What if it was a breakup, and they’re sad about it and want to get away, but they never let anyone know they were dating a colleague? Being kind and supportive around your relationship with them is #1. They’ve given notice and made the decision, so it’s not the time to convince them to stay. You want to help them move forward. Note to the quitters - have your story ready to go because people ARE going to ask, so you want to have an answer in order to minimize the drama. Our job as colleagues is to help someone exit gracefully and be a supportive colleague, figure out how to maintain the relationship and make it easy.

Episode 71: When a Colleague Quits

Welcome to Real Job Talk, Whitney Casares- the author of the Working Mom Blueprint, pediatrician, mom, and supporter of moms in the workplace through her community at www.modernmommydoc.com. We invited Whitney to join us to talk about the realities of being a working mom, and also to discuss how managers, teams, and companies can support working parents. The pandemic has shed a light on the experience of being a working mom, and has given us a behind-the-scenes look at all of the things parents are juggling while also showing up at work. Whitney is the type of person who leans into everything she does- including being a pediatrician and a leader of her pediatric group. When Whitney became a mom she realized how hard it was to balance everything and felt like she was losing it in all areas. She started asking herself what she wanted her working mom life to look like, what gave her purpose, and she talked with other working moms about the inner conflict she was feeling. She coaches women on thinking about what their center vision is and what they want to define their life. Whitney’s 5 center points are: * Connection with her kids * Personal wellness * Contribution to other women in a meaningful way * Financial freedom * Travel/adventure/new experiences She decluttered her physical space and schedule so that when making decisions she has freedom to put up boundaries against things that don’t serve her center vision. That vision and those boundaries really come down to values- such as thinking about her children as being attached but independent. It’s hard to break the pattern of being a pleaser and putting others in front of ourselves. It takes work (Whitney worked with a therapist and others). Surrounding yourself with like-minded people who are supportive of you is key to being true to yourself and your goals. As a working parent, choosing your volunteering wisely is a key to preserving sanity and energy. Whitney knows that the example she shows her daughters of being a CEO and managing with empathy teaches them the value of hard work, the ability of women to succeed without running ourselves into the ground, showing the value of rest and rejuvenation. We ask Whitney her thoughts on how society doesn’t support working parents (not being open off-hours, asking parents to help in the classroom etc), and how companies can support parents. Whitney mentions Mary-Beth Ferrante of Work 360 talking about Parenting Out Loud, which means having people at all levels of the organization feel comfortable talking about themselves as parents. If the CEO is talking about having to leave work to take their kid to the orthodontist, the accountant will feel free to do the same. Whitney talks about asking what you need as support as a parent, but she talks about mapping out solutions that meet all of the requirements of the job that needs to be done. It allows people to show up to work as themselves and identifying the problem and the solution. You can’t expect your employer to solve your problem, and when you create the solution you have more control over it. We asked Whitney about Lean In and the message to working moms. Whitney feels like Sheryl Sandberg’s book represented a huge pendulum swing, and now we’ve moved things back towards the middle which now will move things forward. She also criticizes the original Lean In messaging that women need to be more masculine, especially since our emotional acuity is what makes us better at work. Hiding our femininity does not service our teams or ourselves. We talk about not giving 100% and giving 70% in order to have reserves for ourselves, and Whitney discusses selective mediocrity. Some things require 100% of our attention, but others we can phone it in. We asked Whitney what she wishes everyone working w parents, esp moms, knew, and she said to be aware of the depth of our conflict, and the desire to do it all and be it all. How we carry the mental load and a constant checklist of what our families need. Also to look at people as having moments and being able to take care of themselves during life changes and they will be more invested in the organization over time and thinking about what they can contribute over time. Seeing people as people and supporting them through change helps with retention. How do we support people as parents to make sure we have parents on our teams? Having representation at the highest levels of leadership is critical in order to make sure people’s needs are represented. AND if you’re the representative, you stand up for the people you represent. To make change, it’s ok to start small. We talked about the great resignation and how over 3M women have left the workplace, and Whitney asks women to try and keep 1 foot in the door, but also for other people to mentor them back. People will come back to places that allow transparency and acknowledge the balance between parenting and work. Book: The Working Mom Blueprint (https://www.amazon.com/Working-Mom-Blueprint-Parenting-Yourself/dp/1610024869) Website: ModernMommyDoc.com (https://www.modernmommydoc.com/) Facebook: Modern Mommy Doc (https://www.facebook.com/modernmommydoc) Linkedin: Whitney Casares (https://www.linkedin.com/in/whitney-casares-m-d-m-p-h-f-a-a-p-445b19115/) Twitter: @modernmommydoc (https://twitter.com/modernmommydoc) Instagram: @modernmommydoc (https://www.instagram.com/modernmommydoc/)

Episode 70: Realities of working parents with Whitney Casares

Welcome, Don Khouri! Don is a PhD in Human and Organization Systems who works with leaders and individual contributors to build their presence, improve communication, and be more productive. It’s this last area where we’ve asked Don to join us and talk about his book, When to Say YES (https://donkhouri.com/book/), to help our listeners learn more about being productive, especially in the workplace. Don held a number of roles in the corporate world, mostly at Fidelity Investments, and for the last 12 years he’s been coaching leaders around productivity and leadership skills. Don’s definition of productivity is “to be laser focused on your goals, making progress on your goals, and that feeling that comes along with it.” Not to be confused with being busy or overwhelmed. We asked how to differentiate the little things that need to be done vs productivity. As knowledge workers, the requests for our time exceeds the time we have. We need to know when to say yes or no, and if we can decide up front what to say no to, our plate can be more manageable. A lot of companies, especially big companies, request a lot of people’s time for meetings. People say yes too often, according to Don’s research, and don’t like to say no, so they waste time in meetings. If the meeting’s agenda isn’t clearly defined with action items, and if you’re being invited as an FYI, do you have to be there? Don’s methodology is research-based from conversations with c-level executives around how to evaluate requests for their time. He recommends asking 4 questions before saying yes to something. They are: Does this align with my roadmap? (you need to have one of those...see Real Job Talk episode 27 on setting career/work goals (-https://realjobtalk.com/27-setting-career-and-work-related-goals) and episode 54 with L’areal Lipkins (https://realjobtalk.com/54-envisioning-2021-with-lareal-lipkins).) Who is asking? (boss, customer….) Be clear on the relationship hierarchy. Is it a quality request? Has it been thought through and do you need to be there? There are times when you have to decide to support others on their roadmap so they’ll support you on yours. Maybe you get time back by cutting the amount of time (25 mins vs 30) or having someone else go? Before you go, make sure the agenda is clear and the time will be spent well. A nice way to say no is “not now” if the request doesn’t align with your goals right now. Don says that in a smaller company, it’s important to focus on the essentials and the company roadmap. We asked Don how a jobseeker can uncover if a company is productive in the interview process. He said to ask, “How do you know if someone is productive?” We chimed in to ask if the interview process is productive or drawn out. We also brainstormed to ask the hows around a job, and how many meetings people in the same role have each day. Calendars. They manage us. How do you manage more efficiently? Don’s a fan of time blocking and using color coding to see where you’re spending your time. He has “client time”, “travel time”, “speaking time”, and “catch up”. “Eliminate your free time” says Don. WHAT??? What he means is to block your personal time just like you do your work time. “There is no personal time. There is no professional time. There’s just living.”- According to Richard Branson, there is no difference and we should plan our rest and our work. We have to know when to say no to preserve ourselves. And, when we work for others, it can be tough. To help with transparency, you can ask your boss to help you prioritize and make time to work on a new task. The word priority used to be single, meaning to do one thing at a time. How do you set yourself up for success while saying no? There’s a planning fallacy: We think we can get more done than we can do, and we usually underestimate our time. When feeling like you’re not sure how much time it will take, ask someone else to look at it. The best performing teams have guiding principles to hold each other accountable to getting the work done. You can go to the stakeholder and ask them for help in getting productivity back. Praise publicly, critique privately. Don shares his favorite productivity tools: Action Tracking: Trello Notes: OneNote Teaming: Slack The thing to keep in mind is that tools like email and Slack can ruin productivity. You sometimes need to turn them off to focus. Don recommends turning off all notifications. Facebook: https://www.facebook.com/donkhouri Instagram: https://www.linkedin.com/in/donkhouri/ Twitter: https://twitter.com/donkhouri Linkedin: https://www.linkedin.com/in/donkhouri/ Website: https://donkhouri.com/ Don's book, When to Say YES: The 5 steps to protect your time: https://donkhouri.com/book/

Episode 69: Getting Productive with Don Khouri

This episode is discussing the complex question of going back into the office as companies are beginning to open up their offices and asking workers to return. We talk about options around going back to work, questions to ask, obstacles, and how to communicate with your team around your availability. The emotions around back to work are complicated. Talk with your manager before making a decision around what to do around back-to-office, no matter how uncomfortable that may be. You need to do what you have to do to keep yourself and your loved ones safe. Assuming that, before you keep your sweats on forever, we want to remind you of the GOOD parts about coming back to the office. Things such as: Being able to see everyone around a table -- no cameras, nobody with their cameras turned off -- so that everyone can sense body language and communicate better Impromptu conversations Meeting people outside your role and your group and networking naturally Off-the-cuff learning and mentoring The casual interactions that happen in the office, even when they're not about work, can help us process the little things that happen in our days. Having a second to connect with an officemate over a broken shower or weird smell during your commute helps us process and get past the little things in life. We’ve found that training is SO much better in person. There is something lost in the online training, conferences, and learning online where folks are multi-tasking vs being in a room together. Being able to ask a question without having to feel like you’re bothering someone is excellent. And being brought into impromptu conversations, meetings, and seeing other people’s work is so helpful in building skills that will help in your career. Working from home can be isolating and can also make people feel more alone. The number of people reporting depression is up, and some people are suffering from the lack of social connection that they get from being in the office. A lot of people want and need more separation between their "home self" and their "work self." Parents really enjoy the flexibility of working from home because of the constant demands of schools for our presence. We can come and go without our colleagues noticing. The WFH decision as a parent is different, so when working with parents, having compassion and understanding around people’s different needs. The focus needs to be on how well someone is doing their job -- no matter their circumstances -- vs face time in the office. Before you quit, listen to what your company is thinking around back to work. Try it!

Episode 68: Going Back to the Office

Fear and doubt come in so many forms, including imposter syndrome, self-deprecation, and holding yourself back in other ways. We’re here to talk about how to overcome these things in the workplace. Kat comes from a position of normalizing fear and doubt and accepting them as a part of the human experience. How do we recognize fear and doubt? Awareness and acceptance. It’s about “oh -- I recognize this! It's fear and doubt!” and then allowing ourselves to address and combat those thoughts to take away the power we give to them. We have to normalize the human experience and be prepared to move forward despite fear and doubt. Fear can be a good thing, a warning sign to watch out. If everyone is optimistic all the time, sometimes we miss the warning signs that a devil’s advocate or pessimist may bring. Hearing our fears allows us to see what could get in our way, so that we can deal with it. Our responses to fear and doubt are personalized. Some people thrive on stress and others hide in corners. If you’re avoiding your fears at all costs, what’s that doing to your career? Some people use adrenaline to fuel their work, and others work systematically to avoid that last-minute stress. Today we’re sharing several coping strategies for fear and doubt. The best one we know is first to calm down -- to step away and take a 5-minute break, or at least a few breaths to set your head right. We talk about box breathing (inhale for 4 seconds, hold for 4, exhale for 4, wait for 4), and other breathing techniques. Remember, feelings aren’t permanent, and acknowledging them takes their power. We also tend to tell ourselves stories that aren’t always true. Ask yourself what you know, acknowledge that you’re feeling fear and doubt and WHY you’re feeling it, and take that power back to help yourself move through it. Liz likes to ask, “Can I control this?” If the answer is no, you can’t engage with the fear because you have no control over it (e.g., if your company gets acquired), but you can think of best-case scenarios instead of worst-case. Sometimes fear is an indicator of excitement. Ask yourself, “Am I afraid or am I excited?” Often new and/or growth opportunities bring up fear and doubt, but when you can acknowledge that you’re excited about the growth that they will produce, you can lean into those feelings and push yourself towards learning. When something feels huge and scary, break it down into pieces to make it more manageable and plan out how to make it happen. Do your best, understand your resources, and know that if you aren’t 100% successful, it’s ok. Mistakes are learning opportunities, and when we learn from mistakes we’re actually stronger than if we’re always successful. Think of batting averages or VC wins/losses….nobody hits home runs 100% of the time. When you combat fear and doubt and take risks, REWARD YOURSELF. Give yourself the acknowledgment of getting to the other side. Not necessarily with a designer wardrobe, but maybe an ice cream or a mocha. Make sure to reward yourself with a job well done. Whatever works, do more of it. When you’re in a state of stress, it’s important to sleep, eat well, and take care of yourself. By taking care of yourself, you’ll set yourself up for success. Decisions need to be aligned to values and what’s close to your heart. Using your must-have list and values to make decisions will help guide you towards opportunities. Liz introduced a term: name it to tame it. When you can identify the feeling, it loses some of its power. And if you can name it, understand it, and then talk yourself through it, you’re able to move past the fear towards a goal. Liz gave an example of sending her kids to camp vs hiding them in their rooms after an anti-Semitic incident. Women disproportionately succumb to fear and doubt, feeling like they can’t go for opportunities. Ask yourself, “what do I need to do now?” or “how can I make this happen?” For every 100 men promoted to manager, 80 women are promoted, according to a study by the consulting firm McKinsey. We’re here to encourage you to move yourself forward. Sometimes we worry about current job performance and the ability to be successful in something new. Often people, especially women, won’t raise their hands if they don’t feel 100% able to take something on. If you’re feeling it 70%, GO FOR IT! We think about L’areal Lipkins and her vision boards from Episode 54 (https://realjobtalk.com/54-envisioning-2021-with-lareal-lipkins), what excuses you’re making, and what you can do to make those excuses go away. Make sure your people, your friends, and the colleagues you hang with are positive, helping, and encouraging. Surrounding yourself with people you admire can help you try new things and having role models helps you to aspire to grow. Liz and Kat use each other as sounding boards to evaluate new decisions. Sometimes trying new things takes practice; find what tools work for you. Remember, the most successful people have overcome Imposter Syndrome. For proof listen to our episodes with Amy Lewis (https://realjobtalk.com/12-imposter-syndrome-with-amy-lewis) and Joep Piscaer (https://realjobtalk.com/51-imposter-syndrome-joep-piscaer)). Kat is also an incredible coach through fear and doubt. We’re here to you support you in not letting fear and doubt hold you back. You can do hard things!

Episode 67: Overcoming Fear and Doubt in your Career

Welcome to Real Job Talk, Kat Cosgrove, Staff Developer Advocate from Pulumi. We invited Kat to join us to talk about her experience as a technical woman in the technology industry. After a conference, Kat tweeted about being hit on in the virtual hallways, and Liz and Kat Troyer talked about how people really need to be more aware of appropriate behavior in professional settings. Kat started as an engineer, taught at a bootcamp, and then found her way to being a Developer Advocate for the last 2 years. Kat tells us how she’s always asked to talk about the nice parts of being a woman in tech, but was excited to talk with us and pull back the curtain on the ugly parts. The parts we want to change. Now. First we asked Kat to talk about the differences she experienced as a developer vs working in a more public role. She said that as an engineer, the sexism was quieter; she was underpaid, underappreciated, overworked, and often talked over. She had to really stand up for her ideas and make sure she was listened to. As a Developer Advocate with 20,000 Twitter followers, she gets inappropriate attention and even hit on a lot, and when she doesn’t respond positively, men have done so far as to threaten her job. Once, after a conferrence, someone messaged Kat on the conference platform to try to hire her because he wanted to hire a "female." Kat turned him down, and also asked him not to refer to her as female because she found it insulting. He flew off the handle, yelled at her, and when she posted redacted screenshots of the interaction, he filed a code of conduct violation with the conference and said she and her followers had threatened him and his family. He also approached her company's HR department. In this case, both the conference and Kat's HR department saw that the hiring manager was inappropriate, and that Kat hadn't done anything wrong. We asked Kat what she thinks the aggression she sees is about, and she feels like it might be about how women are conditioned to be docile (she’s not) and men machismo. Kat hears advice for women in tech that they need to be assertive, loud, mean, and aggressive, and we all agreed that’s BS. Why can’t people be themselves? AND why in 2021 are we talking about objectifying people at work? It amazed us that Kat’s DMs are “a cesspit” and people feel free to send her inappropriate pictures, comments etc. Would they send those to their boss??? We asked about people like us, who aren’t as technical as Kat. She believes that men who are sending these inappropriate messages believe all women aren’t technical, and that they always assume that she’s less technical than she is, so she’s constantly proving her value as an engineer, showing both her critical thinking skills while using her soft skills to understand the customers/users of her products and work as a part of a healthy team. People's behaviors can be different in the office with your team vs at a conference with strangers and acquaintances. Kat feels lucky to have been on great teams that have supported her and stood by her if people are disrespecting her. Conferences are social, and Kat has to be “on” for her role, which is different from the office. At this point, she’s quick to file a Code of Conduct violation to do her part in stopping inappropriate behavior. At conferences, Kat limits herself to 2 drinks to stay sober and make sure that she stays safe. Kat said that when she calls people out for being inappropriate, she gets told that she’s limiting the places that people can meet potential partners. Not true! If you are interested in someone professionally, get to know them….SLOWLY. Go to lunch. Find out their favorite pastimes. And if there’s chemistry -- AND CONSENT -- you can take things to the next level. It isn't ok to come out of the gate with “I want you. Let’s sleep together.” Kat’s married, but her husband is private, so he doesn’t come up a lot on her social media. She find that many men ONLY back off once she mentions her husband, NOT when she says no. Think about that. One time, Kat had booth duty and someone asked for an engineer. She said she was an engineer, and then he proceeded to ask if she knew what a DNS server was, and then explained to her how the internet works. Nobody does that to her male colleagues. Twitter’s a weird place. How do you become a friend without being a stalker? Kat’s met friends on the internet, and even her husband on the internet! Kat breaks down her hierarchy of Twitter acquaintances vs actually having her phone number. The screwed up thing is that after she said it, she was afraid people would try to find her number (good luck -- she doesn’t answer it). She has 2 Instagrams: a private one that's described as just for friends and one where she sends strangers that ask inappropriately with a big "No" sign on it. She feels that people think that she has lewd pictures on the private account, but it's just so she can share things with friends and away from inappropriate internet strangers . We all talked about making sure people we work with know we’re married in order to draw a line. Being professional means making people feel comfortable in your presence. How does Kat assess new roles for her career? When Kat is looking at a new job, she asks about conflict resolution. It tells a lot about management and the company’s HR. She also asks about politics at work. She feels that companies who won’t discuss politics at work also won’t stand up for critical issues, and that's a sign that women should run.

Episode 66: Being a Woman in Tech with Kat Cosgrove

Check out our new tagline!!! We’re evolving, and while we loved our water cooler, it’s been sitting dormant since March, 2020. Real Job Talk is the podcast for mid-career professionals looking for practical career guidance. Today we’re talking about vulnerability and telling our stories, inspired by some training Liz has been doing. A great way to get to know someone and to hear how other people have found success is to ask “How did you get to where you are today?” Many people believe that careers happen to people vs people managing their own careers. We’re here to dispel the myth of the career fairy and to find out how people have figure out where to take their career. How does someone with a marketing degree get to sales operations? What moves did they make? Showing how others have helped us and how we want to help others can open us up to mentorships and making our own career journey real. Being appropriately vulnerable (read Dare to Lead if you want to learn more) helps us to reflect and help others learn from us. If your company has ERGs (employee resource groups), JOIN THEM! You can learn from these other people and their stories - after all they'll have at least 2 things in common with you: the area/theme of the group as well as the fact you’re at the same company. ERGs are great places to meet mentors and role models and to learn your colleagues’ stories, to share yours, can to help you better understand and get ideas about your own career. Sharing how you navigated something can help others -- both career stories and life stories -- and can build mutual respect and bonds. Showing how you got through a tough time shows your coping skills, problem solving, adaptivity, and resiliency.

Episode 65: Telling Your Story

Today’s episode is about building and deepening professional relationships at work, and small changes that can have a big impact on your work relationships, personal brand, and people’s experience working with you. Tip #1. No ghosting. We discuss the person, who we never know if they are going to show up to our meetings, and therefore we wonder how much they respect our time. The key here is to look at your calendar regularly to avoid double bookings and no-shows, and to let someone know AHEAD OF TIME (vs after the fact) when you won’t make the meeting. Giving someone time back = good. Leaving them staring at a blank screen = not good. Sending the “are you going to make this meeting?” email stinks. That said, we know no-shows happen, and we apologize and move on. That said, “Sorry I missed our meeting, I was in the car.” is BS -- you KNEW you were getting in the car, and you KNEW you had a meeting... you know better, and we’re encouraging yourself to do better. *Tip #2. Be on time. *Liz worked with SignalFx for years, and a core value of the company was to respect people’s time, so meetings started on time, and calls happened on time. If someone was going to be late, they would send an email, text, or Slack. Nobody was ever left waiting and it was GLORIOUS. *Tip #3. Keep people posted on your progress. *When you’re assigned a project, the people you work with are going to assume you’re going to meet your deadline. Send an update half way through, let your colleagues know if you forsee any delays, and help people know they can rely on you to update them and meet your deliverables. Yes, it may be uncomfortable to send an update, especially if you’re going to miss a deliverable, but setting expectations is key to building trust at work. Tip #4. Be kind. Thank the IT person who fixes your computer. Say hi when you see someone in the kitchen. Don’t leave a mess for the janitor. Being kind makes you pleasant to work with. If people like working with you, they’re going to give you opportunities. How you behave has a ripple effect in your career. Savvy interviewers are looking for how people treat others around them- it’s important to be kind. Tip #5. Don’t overshare. Giving the gory details of your latest virus or of your breakup is completely unnecessary. Big picture, “I’m sick and can’t come to work” - yes. Every detail of fever, headache, vomit, and malaise - no. Tip #6. Follow Up. Don’t ghost. If someone takes the time to talk with you, reaches out with an idea, and especially if you say something like “I want to work with you” or “I’m going to follow up by this date.” Yes, it may feel uncomfortable to tell someone that you’ve changed your mind, but it’s about respecting someone’s time enough to follow up when you say you will. Kat and Liz agree that they both will bend over backwards for people who show them respect, whereas they put less time and effort into people who don’t show appreciation for our efforts. If you’re respectful to the people who you are working with, they’ll be respectful to you, and you will build more robust professional relationships.

Episode 64: Build Solid Professional Relationships

Welcome to Real Job Talk, Jordan Babineaux! Jordan was an NFL player for 10 years, is a sports broadcaster, runs serveral businesses, is receiving his MBA, and is a true entrepreneur. Jordan joins us to talk about his new book, Pivot to Win, and we ask him all about pivoting towards both success and happiness. Jordan defines leadership as being a facilitator: how do I bring the best out of other people and get different people aligned to the same goal? Jordan sees routine as a key to his success and it helps him to focus and avoid distractions. He sets goals each day in order to move things forward. Jordan thinks a lot about how he starts and ends his day. He starts his day by reading, working out, and praying, yoga, or meditation. He encourages people to start with baby steps of focusing on self, and doing 5 minutes of mindfulness a day. For his wind down, depending on activities with his kids, he leaves behind his tech and gadgets and spends uninterrupted time with his family, and he makes sure to turn off his phone an hour before bed. Change can mean a shift in identity. You need to recognize it and start getting ready to pivot before you do it, as you can. Jordan started commentating before his 10th season in the NFL. Pivots happen daily between work and home, from one meeting to another…. Jordan creates a quick buffer zone between different activities in order to leave one behind and focus on the next as his best self. Jordan’s pivoting model has 5 steps: 1. Recognize change (planned or unplanned) and how you can leverage your skills to achieve what you want. 2. Declare where you’re going. 3. Ground zero: see where you are. 4. Courage: fight imposter syndrome as you move through the change. 5. Transform: act in your purpose. Jordan likes Susan Scott’s book called Fierce Conversations about tackling tough challenges and enriching relationships through them. Growth mindset is a highly valued skill in the workplace, and Jordan teaches us about having a growth mindset in order to build your career, and how a fixed mindset can hold you back. We asked Jordan about preparing to pivot. We talk about being uncomfortable and wanting to leave a place better than you found it. Jordan asks himself these questions: Did I do something for myself? Did I do something for others? Did I do something for the community? These questions ground him in his higher purpose and keep him focused on his goals. Like Brene Brown, Jordan Babineaux believes leaders should be vulnerable and share their powerful thoughts on vulnerability. That's a key piece of leadership, even though it’s scary. He encourages leaders to step out, be their real self ,and ask their team for help when they need it. All relationships should have reciprocity, and by trusting your people you build a reciprocal relationship. Why did Jordan write the book? Because he saw how he was able to grow through change and how his self-awareness helped him through change, and he wanted to share with others. If you mix accountability with self-awareness, you’re more powerful. Jordan knew his football self was an "alpha male," but he went to therapy, learned his triggers, and became a better self to be better in business. Thanks to Jordan Babineaux for joining us on Real Job Talk! Book : (Pivot to Win:Make The Big Plays In Life, Sports & Business)[https://www.amazon.com/Pivot-Win-Plays-Sports-Business-ebook/dp/B08TB7MZBD Book website: (www.pivottowin.com)[https://www.pivottowin.com] Twitter: (@jordanbabineaux)[https://twitter.com/jordanbabineaux] Instagram: (@jordanbabineaux)[https://www.instagram.com/jordanbabineaux/]

Episode 63: Pivot to Win with Jordan Babineaux

May is mental health awareness month, and we want to tell you to take care of yourself. Yes, you hear us talk about self care, but we also want you to know that you’re not alone and that your employer may have resources for you. Today we’re talking about toxicity and how to tell if a work environment is healthy or toxic. Liz has a coaching client who is looking for a new role after leaving a toxic culture, and she wants to make sure she ends up in a better place. Of course, the branding on the old company’s website makes it look like a safe and happy place, when in reality, it’s a pretty terrible environment. We dive into how you can explore to see if a company’s environment will be a good place for you. Review our job search learning track: https://realjobtalk.com/resources What is a toxic work environment? It’s different for everyone. A big question to ask yourself, “Do you feel safe at work?” Kat works with clients to build constructive (aka more effective) cultures. They can be: * Achievement-focused goals: work together, but see individual contribution is important. * Self-Actualizing: high levels of integrity and reflective * Humanistic/encouraging: involves others in their decision making process (vs being a dictatorship) * Affiliative: cooperative, friendly, puts others at ease What gets in the way of having a constructive culture? Lack of safety. When people don’t feel safe, they are sometimes passive defensive (avoiding tough conversations, protecting themselves, people pleasing/approval seeking, avoiding putting their neck out to protect themselves), aggressive defensive (disagreeing to prove a point, competitive over collaborative), or perfectionistic. If you don’t feel safe in some way, it’s toxic for you. How do you get over a toxic situation? Talk with someone who knows you and learn what triggers you and what you’re not looking for when you make a move. What am I avoiding and what do I need to know to avoid it in the future? Questions to ask to figure out if a place is toxic (during in-person interview process): * How are decisions make here? * What’s the process when this team starts new projects? * How do people on this team share ideas? * What is the manager’s style? * What problems will I be figuring out on my own? * Peer question: How involved in your day-to-day work is the manager?? * What made you join/stay at Company XYZ? FYI: employment branding is marketing! Companies pay people to write values and make their companies look like great places to work. Ask questions around the values. You say your company values learning, so what are some classes you’ve taken in the last year? If someone is shutting down or not answering, probing won’t help. YOU own your career and need to ask the questions that will determine if it’s the right place for you. It’s your job to peel back the employment branding work to see what the real work environment is like and is it going to be a good fit for you. Assess items off your must-have list and values to determine fit. How does this change in a remote setting? Ask questions like: * How will I get to know people on the team or in other groups? * What does onboarding look like? * What was the culture like before and how has it changed? * What are you hoping changes/happens in the “new normal”?

Episode 62: How can you tell if your workplace is toxic?

Welcome to Real Job Talk, Mary Abbajay! Mary is a speaker, consultant, and trainer who works with managers and teams to create productive workplaces. She also teaches at the university and post-graduate level, speaks at numerous conferences, and is an active volunteer. Mary is the CEO of the Careerstone Group, and the author of Managing Up: How to Move Up, Win at Work, and Succeed with Any Type of Boss (https://www.amazon.com/dp/B07BB4QFDF/ref=dp-kindle-redirect?_encoding=UTF8&btkr=1). Mary wants to make the world a better place by making the workplace a better place. We asked Mary what the biggest challenge has been in the workplace over the last year, and she talks about how teams, managers, and companies weren’t prepared for remote work. Many people figured out how to manage up when they were in the office, but were lost when everything went remote. Bosses changed their approaches and life became complicated. In the beginning of the pandemic, Mary taught managers some skills about remote work such as learning how to manage with results and staying connected. She saw that managers didn’t know how to juggle everything and also manage remotely, and she reminds us to have empathy for our managers too. Managing up isn’t about sucking up and licking boots. It’s about managing that relationship and making sure it’s working well for you, your boss, and your organization. Keys to managing up: understanding the manager has influence over our career, and we can’t change them. People who manage up well understand that adapting how we react to others is an empowering skill. You know The Golden Rule - treat others how you want to be treated. For managing up, try The Platinum Rule -- learn how others like to be treated and then do that. When you give others what they need, it builds trust. Read your boss and how they communicate in order to figure out what will work best for them. Things to look for in your boss: are they focused on tasks or the big picture, do they have a fast-paced or slower work style, and do they like sharing a lot of info or just the highlights. Once you’ve assessed their style, you need to decide how you can and want to adjust. Mary has a conversational template for preferences, priorities and pet peeves….it’s your job to have it with them to build a shared framework for how the relationship will work. LCLD Manage Up HO_2020 You can have a check-in with them using this doc individually or as a team. Learning about them will change the dynamic of how you work together. How do you get better at managing up? First, have the conversation. Train yourself. See who is successful with the boss, and observe them ask them what works. A little of self-awareness, responsibility, and be willing to share new things grows this skill like any other. Mary tells a great story about a micromanager boss and how she changed their dynamic by reading her and how to best work with her Never assume that your boss knows what you’ve accomplished, are working on, or how valuable you are. It’s on YOU to show them how fabulous you are. Keep them in the loop and stay on their radar. Give until they tell you they don’t want it. Big rule: use that cc unless your boss doesn’t like it. The power of the cc is to have your boss know what you’re up to, but also to keep them in the loop so they aren’t caught unaware. Talk about work boundaries, your environment, and if and how you need help with flexibility. There are different types of bosses with keys to each: The “Normal” Boss. This category covers most poeple, whether they are introverts or extroverts, and across different management styles, like advancers, harmonizers, and energizers. The keys to an normal but introverted boss are to be proactive, stay on their calendar, tell them what you want to talk about, and give them time to speak. Manage your chatting….it drives them nuts! The key to an normal "evaluator" boss: they love details and accuracy. Learn to love the details and have the facts when you meet with them. “Difficult” bosses come in different styles, like micromanagers, impulsive boss, seagull boss, ghost-boss, work-a-holic, and “friend boss.” The key to micromanagers is to over-communicate and show them that you will do things the way they want you to. They need to get what they need. “Toxic” basses are those who humiliate, debase, abuse, bully, or are narcissists. Bad people who create toxic work environments. The main key to a toxic boss is to: 1. Get out! You can’t change an asshole, a narcissist, or a bully. Get out. If you find yourself working for a narcissist, you do need to be a kiss ass until you get out, but you have to determine how long you can do that and you protect your professional image. Remember they will raise themselves by pulling you down. In general, managing up is about finding the right strategy that will work with “this boss.” Mary has a great talk on YouTube about successfully working remotely (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YZDKYyYOLC0). She advises to stay on the radar, invite your boss for a virtual, meaningful coffee. Ask your boss their preferred communication channel, and USE IT. Ask for feedback on what’s working well and not well, and ask if they’d like to see you change something, and tell them what you think would help. Stay positive and show some concern for your boss. Stay away from negativity and complaints without actions or suggestions Being a complainer is a drain and will do nothing for your career. We asked about working with someone who is fundamentally different from us (e.g., an extrovert working with an introvert). Mary's advice: bring your best authentic self that the situation calls for and build the muscles that will push you to work with others. As always, you need to manage yourself first before you manage others You are the CEO of your career. The book: Managing Up: How to Move up, Win at Work, and Succeed with Any Type of Boss (https://www.amazon.com/dp/B07BB4QFDF/ref=dp-kindle-redirect?_encoding=UTF8&btkr=1) LinkedIn Course: Managing Up as an Employee (https://www.linkedin.com/feed/update/urn:li:activity:6727341929207496704/) Twitter: https://twitter.com/maryabbajay Linkedin: https://www.linkedin.com/in/mary-abbajay-managingup/ Instagram: https://www.instagram.com/maryabbajay/ Facebook: https://www.facebook.com/maryabbajay Company: Careerstone Group (https://careerstonegroup.com/)

Episode 61: Managing up with Mary Abbajay

Welcome to Real Job Talk to NYU Professors Raúl Sánchez and Dan Bullock. Raúl and Dan teach a the Center for International Studies and write for the Wall Street Journey while also conducting training on international communication for organizations such as The UN and International Student group. Dan and Raúl wrote the book How to Communicate Effectively with Anyone, Anywhere to help people communicate better across geographical, language, and cultural boundaries. How did the book come up? Well, one night over Arby’s, Raúl, Dan, and Raúl’s twin (and book artist) Rod were talking about astronomy, stories, and the overview effect looking at communication when thinking of the planet as a whole vs. as separate places and cultures. Many people are working in global teams, and this book came about from the need for Global English, which takes out idioms, slang, and anything that doesn’t translate. Dan and Raúl encourage us to think about how we use language, and how hard it would be to understand something like “it blew my mind” to a second language learner. Classically, there are 3 ways to make an argument: appeal to logic, to emotion, and to credibility. These are important to include in a presentation designed to persuide a spectrum of different audiences. You have to think about culture too; 70% of the world operates in a "high-context" culture, one which is more collectivist , where people in a group are assumed to understand implicit information and context shared by the culture. On a global stage, appealing to people in these kinds of cultures, respect is important, as are knowing how to build trust and to disagree. You have to balance your implicit and explicit audiences and lead your audience on a journey through storytelling that will make the audience the hero of the story. We have schemata, or blueprints, for certain words, but our experiences and preferences shape how we experience words and stories. When we help people connect our words to our frameworks, our messages are clearer throughout. Speaking is done to persuade, entertain, or inform. Diction is important, as is making sure you’re connecting with your whole audience. You have to 1. Know your audience 2. Know your purpose 3. Know your message and 4. Know the value of your message. Carrying the value throughout will keep people engaged. In their book, Dan and Raúl talk about mirroring, and we ask about mirroring without losing yourself. It’s really about building natural rapport and connection. It’s about creating a spark that will move ideas and collaboration forwared, as well as fulfillment and service to each other. We move on to networking globally. We talk about building a network in your space, seeking out people across the globe, and then building ideas as you build out your network one person at a time. Carry out networking for discovery more than results. This helps build richer ideas and a truly global outlook. When you network for discovery, it leads to opportunities. What about when you screw up? Take the blame! Say things like, “I wasn’t clear.” Ask questions, look at body language, and know that the responsibility is on the communicator. Being direct, fact-based, and looking for connection are key to global communication. Other tips are to be explicity, not to imply; and to be aware in all communication around what we are implying. The goal is to clarify and make sure it’s a win-win for everyone in the conversation. This is an important book because it teaches us basic conversation skills that help us communicate globally and build relationships. Raúl's and Dan's book: How to Communicate Effectively With Anyone, Anywhere: Your Passport to Connecting Globally * Twitter: https://twitter.com/GlobalCommNYC * Instagram: https://www.instagram.com/connecting_globally/ * Website: www.globallycommunicate.com * Raúl Sánchez (co-author): https://www.linkedin.com/in/raul-h-sanchez/ * Dan Bullock (co-author): https://www.linkedin.com/in/danielbullock1/ * Rod Sánchez (illustrator): https://www.linkedin.com/in/rodasanchez/

Episode 60: Communicating Globally with Raúl Sánchez and Dan Bullock

Welcome back, Chris Gaither! Chris is a leadership coach, writer, and "career pivoter extraordinaire." Chis is somebody who listens to his own energy to make career decisions. Chris has tailored his coaching practice to work with sustainability leaders, an area where he is knowledgable, passionate, and impactful. We are talking with Chris about listening to and following our personal energy in both career decisions and life. Welcome, Chris! Since visiting us over a year ago, Chris feels like he took the craziness of 2020 to reflect and build a coaching/leadership practice that he loves. He has divorced, re-partnered, embraced single parenting, written, meditated, exercised, and processed all that the pandemic brought. We asked about Chris’s definition of personal energy. He realized that people would talk about wanting to follow a passion, but didn’t know what their passion was. In studying people, Chris realized that energy was a better gauge to follow. Early in his coaching career, someone asked Chris what makes a successful coaching session. He came up with an answer, although one he now recognizes was BS. She came back with advice for him to listen to his inner reaction to the session. If he ended the conversation with extra energy, it probably meant his client was jazzed as well. In order to follow the energy, we need to tune into it and connect our energy levels to our activities. Chris has clients do an energy audit of their calendar, printing out a calendar and drawing either up, neutral, or down arrows around each activity to see which activities bring energy and which are depleting. We all have to do some draining activities because we’re adults, but the goal is to do more that fills our energy and less that drains it. The funny thing is that what drains my energy might fill yours, so surround yourself with people who have complementary skills to keep everyone’s energies high. We asked Chris what he says to people who are depleted just by the nature of what's going on in their lives. Chris distinguishes managing energy vs following it in terms of managing and preventing burnout. Paying attention to the signals from your body; that's important to taking care of yourself. Taking things off your plate, outsourcing, asking for help, and seeing what is going well are also key. Reflecting on energy is helpful in identifying patterns, but how do you make changes once you see what gives you energy? Look at your ratios and add one thing that gives you energy. Try to get to parity and take small steps. We are wired to pick up on other people’s energy or moods. We carry it with us. Leaders’ energy affects their entire organization. Chris noticed that when he was working with sustainability leaders who felt frustrated, he started feeling the same way. When we show up with negative energy, others feel it and push back against it. To give your best, how are you showing up? Are you curious? Empathetic? Passionate? If you come in with positive energy, others will pick up on it and feel connected to you and your mission. We ask Chris what he tells people who are chronically frustrated. His response is to listen and ask what they are missing, what values they want to honor, and dig into what is making them unhappy. If you can structure your day so that you can reward yourself with the “good stuff,”,you can help bring in positivity. How do you assess a new role to see if the position will be fulfilling? Step 1: be clear on what you’re looking for. Step 2: look for roles that allow you to bring your strengths forward in terms of your goals. When people follow their energy, it’s contagious and they bring it with them wherever they go. (See https://www.greenbiz.com/article/we-recognize-our-purpose-our-thousand-watt-grins (Chris’s article on the "thousand-watt grin" from GreenBiz)). Chris tells us about his coaching journey and building his practice to focus on sustainability leaders. When he started coaching, he found himself helping people to deal with toxic cultures; this was hard because he couldn’t have an impact on actually improving those cultures. Chris followed the energy to work on his clients’ overall organizational health, working with teams on building healthier environments. Chris also looked at which of the people in his coaching brought him the most energy and saw that they all had sustainability in common. He enjoys working with people whose “why” is tied to the overall health of our world. In his journey, Chris was told that “purpose isn’t an exact address, it’s a neighborhood.” You don’t need to name it, you just need to work towards a moving target that changes with our knowledge and experience. Lastly, we tap into "values discovery." Brene Brown’s list of values is a great place to start exploring what is most important to us. It’s good to know who we are, and then to explore a company’s written and unwritten values, and how they hold themselves accountable to their values. If their values prevent you from living your values, it’s just not a fit. Make sure you can show up as your authentic self.

Episode 59: Follow Your Energy with Chris Gaither

Welcome to our first podcast guests who are a father-son duo, Bob and Nick Slater, authors of the new book Look Out Above!This book is aimed at helping people enter the job market, pivot in their careers, and make the most out of the first few years of their careers. Bob is a professor from UNC & Duke, and his son, Nick, is an entrepreneur. We ask Bob and Nick about critical workplace skills that they teach; these are actually soft skills, not something that you’re taught in school. The book is aimed at teaching you how to contribute and stand out in the workforce, and Bob and Nick talk about the importance of the soft skills of writing, public speaking, leading, advocating, and presenting; and how these soft skills are the key to professional success. We talk about contributing as a key to showing and adding value at an organization. You want to produce and do well in any job you do, even the first jobs in your career path. We talk about the importance of listening and learning, but also contributing when you can add value. We debate learning vs contributing right away, and agree that when you can add a unique contribution, you should do so to show your value to the organization. Ask your boss about their preferences to help you understand the unwritten rules around contribution. If you’re quiet in a meeting, you can always follow up with your manager and tell them what you are learning and ask what their expectations are. Put the burden on yourself to know what is expected of you so that you can meet those expectations. Ask questions, show you were listening, talk about where you could contribute, and reiterate your excitement to be there. Where can people practice the five key workforce skills? The first place is in summer jobs, internships and non-conventional jobs where you can figure things out. Look for places where you can practice practical business writing; even taking online courses. Join a group like Toastmasters for public speaking, and participate in sports and organizations to acquire leadership skills in addition to taking classes. But classes are also useful. If you can, take classes in public speaking, communication, and writing. With any major, if you can find classes on personal finance, pitching ideas, and practical business skills, they will help no matter what your major is. Bob and Nick talk about the ability to pitch ideas, which seems a little “early” for new grads. Young professionals are being asked to do more sooner and junior people are expected to interact with clients and other employees, so being able to comfortably speak to groups and pitch ideas are huge differentiators. Demonstrating leadership skills are critical if you want to advance. When you’re the CEO of your own career, you find ways to differentiate, and soft leadership skills are the way to do it. Career change and growth during Covid has changed a bit. Nick says that Covid shows us that work can change in an instant. It’s critical to be ready for any change or to have the transferable skills to get a new job. He recommends using extra time for networking or building skills through online learning. We talk about the humanness of working from home, and helping to use communication skills in the WFH environment. Bob gave some really good advice around long term fit and paying attention to make sure you’re at a company where you want to spend time and can add value. He talks about unwritten rules of a company, observing who gets respect and why, and what differentiates people who are succeeding in the environment from those who aren’t. If you aren’t aligned with the attributes that make people at your company successful, it’s time to find a place where you are aligned. When you’re looking at a job, don’t forget that you are interviewing the company as much as they are interviewing you. After school, pick a job that sounds interesting to you and try it out. If it doesn’t work for you, you can pivot and start over. Don’t get stuck in the first few years of your career; instead, intentionally make a change! Have the courage to explore. Bob and Nick Slater * The Book: (Look Out Above!)[https://bobandnickslater.com] * Twitter: (@lookoutabove)[https://twitter.com/lookoutabove] * Instagram (@lookoutabove.book)[https://www.instagram.com/lookoutabove.book] * Facebook: (@lookoutabovebook)[https://www.facebook.com/lookoutabovebook]

Episode 58: Look out for your career as you get started with Bob and Nick Slater

Seasoned HR and recruiting consultants Liz and Kat help you navigate your career and get through your work day. Go beyond the employee manual for some real job talk!

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Real Job Talk

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