In episode 669, Rob Walling chats with Rick Hymanson, founder of detamoov and previously Shugo. They discuss Rick’s exit from Shugo in 2018 in what Rob calls “ten years to overnight success”. Rick recounts an early pivot for the company in finding product market fit, building the business with a day job, the logistics of the exit, and why he’s excited to join TinySeed with detamoov. Episode Sponsor: Find your perfect developer or a team at Lemon.io/startups The competition for incredible engineers and developers has never been more fierce. Lemon.io helps you cut through the noise and find great talent through its network of engineers in Europe and Latin America. They take care of the vetting, interviewing, and testing of candidates to make sure that you are working with someone who can hit the ground running. When it comes to hiring, the time it takes to write your job description, list the position, review resumes, schedule interviews, and make an offer can take weeks, if not months. With Lemon.io, you can cut down on a lot of that time by tapping into their wide network of developers who can get started in as early as a week. And for subscribers of Startups For the Rest of Us, you can get 15% off your first 4 week contract with a developer by visiting lemon.io/startups Topics we cover:  1:59 – How Rick felt after exiting Shugo 5:10 – Deciding to start detamoov after the exit 7:09 – Creating a Shugo MVP and pivoting 11:15 – Building a SaaS product while working a day job 15:34 – Transitioning to full time and growing Shugo ARR 20:28 – Expanding the product feature set 22:11 – When did you know you had product-market fit? 23:28 – Finding an acquirer and navigating the process 27:38 – Starting and growing datamoov 31:12 – The value of relationship building 34:43 – IP ownership agreements Links from the Show:  Rick Hymanson | LinkedIn detamoov The SaaS Playbook TinySeed If you have questions about starting or scaling a software business that you’d like for us to cover, please submit your question for an upcoming episode. We’d love to hear from you! Subscribe & Review: iTunes | Spotify | Google

Startups For the Rest of Us

Episode 669 | 10 Years to Overnight Success: Bootstrapping to a Multi-Million Dollar Exit

In episode 668, Rob Walling and Arvid Kahl share nine key takeaways from MicroConf US 2023 in Denver. They cover topics ranging from founder mental health, shared motivations for bootstrapping, the value of in-person conferences, and the MicroConf experimentation that led to the “Chaos Lunch”. Topics we cover:  2:04 – MicroConf 2023 in Denver, building back after COVID 9:09 – Founders are sharing an experience of struggles and pivots 11:21 – Why nothing beats being in a room together 14:07 – Discussing mental health in a welcoming environment 17:07 – How experimentation on the MicroConf format led to “Chaos Lunch” 21:03  – Sharing strategies and tactics, Dev Basu’s talk on product marketing 24:28 – What motivations do founders have for running their SaaS businesses 27:27 – Arvid’s workshop encourages discussion of founder mental health   30:22 – MicroConf’s powerful Hallway track 32:45 – Patrick Campbell’s talk on mental frameworks and founder paths 36:47 – Upcoming MicroConf events 40:05 – The not-so-hidden track: Arvid’s Twitter growth and strategy Links from the Show:  MicroConf US 2024 | Atlanta, GA | April 21 - 23, 2024 MicroConf US Recordings Arvid Kahl (@arvidkahl) I Twitter Episode 492 | From Zero to $55k MRR to Exit (in 2 Years) with Feedback Panda thebootstrappedfounder.com Lianna Patch (@punchlinecopy) | Twitter Claire Suellentrop (@ClaireSuellen) | Twitter Dev Basu (@devbasu) | Twitter Patrick Campbell (@Patticus) Twitter John Ndege (@johnndege) | Twitter Comte Anthony Eden (@aeden) | Twitter Quiet Light (@quietlightinc) | Twitter Sherry Walling (@sherrywalling) | Twitter If you have questions about starting or scaling a software business that you’d like for us to cover, please submit your question for an upcoming episode. We’d love to hear from you! Subscribe & Review: iTunes | Spotify | 

Episode 668 | 9 Key Takeaways from MicroConf U.S. 2023 in Denver

In episode 667, Rob Walling speaks with John Warrillow, author of Built to Sell, about validating and launching his second SaaS business, VidGuide. They cover how Standard Operating Procedures can help your business, from leading toward better exits to easing your burden as a founder. Topics we cover:  2:59 – Why John decided to launch VidGuide 7:23 – Validating and positioning a “scratch-your-own-itch” SaaS idea 13:45 – Considerations for novel software solutions 18:27 – Success stories of others and their SOPs 22:42 – John’s early validation for VidGuide 26:13 – Following April Dunford’s methodology for positioning Links from the Show: John Warrillow (@JohnWarrillow) I Twitter Built To Sell by John Warrillow The Automatic Customer by John Warrillow The Art of Selling Your Business by John Warrillow The ValueBuilder System Built to Sell Radio VidGuide Episode 532 | The Art of Selling Your Business with John Warrillow Episode 603 | Bootstrapping HotJar to $40M ARR Using D2C Marketing Episode 492 | From Zero to $55k MRR to Exit (in 2 Years) with Feedback Panda Ten Year Career by Jodie Cook MicroConf Refresh Episode 60: How to Craft a Story that Sells with April Dunford If you have questions about starting or scaling a software business that you’d like for us to cover, please submit your question for an upcoming episode. We’d love to hear from you! Subscribe & Review: iTunes | Spotify | Stitcher

Episode 667 | Increase Your Exit Price by Decoupling Yourself from Your Business with John Warrillow

In episode 666, Rob Walling chats with fan favorite Derrick Reimer, the founder of SavvyCal, as they answer listener questions. They cover topics ranging from idea validation in competitive spaces to book recommendations to development strategies for non-technical founders. Episode Sponsor: Find your perfect developer or a team at Lemon.io/startups The competition for incredible engineers and developers has never been more fierce. Lemon.io helps you cut through the noise and find great talent through its network of engineers in Europe and Latin America. They take care of the vetting, interviewing, and testing of candidates to make sure that you are working with someone who can hit the ground running. When it comes to hiring, the time it takes to write your job description, list the position, review resumes, schedule interviews, and make an offer can take weeks, if not months. With Lemon.io, you can cut down on a lot of that time by tapping into their wide network of developers who can get started in as early as a week. And for subscribers of Startups For the Rest of Us, you can get 15% off your first 4 week contract with a developer by visiting lemon.io/startups Topics we cover:  1:05 – How to validate ideas in competitive markets 7:49 – How to manage stress when growing a small SaaS business 15:48 – Finding a technical co-founder vs. outsourcing development 28:24 – How to decide between doubling down on a current project or starting a new SaaS app 34:15 – Tools for tracking traffic, conversions, and A/B test results 40:21 – Recommended reading for SaaS startups Links from the Show: Derrick Reimer (@derrickreimer) I Twitter SavvyCal  The Mom Test by Rob Fitzpatrick Ruben Gamez (@earthlingworks) | Twitter Pieter Levels (@levelsio) | Twitter Danny Postma (@dannypostmaa) | Twitter Fathom Analytics, Mixpanel, Heap, Segmetrics.io, June Optimizely, VWO, Hotjar, Crazy Egg Obviously Awesome by April Dunford 

Episode 666 | Entering a Competitive Market, Books for SaaS Founders, and More Listener Questions with Derrick Reimer

In episode 665, Rob Walling chats with Georgiana Laudi, who is the co-author of the new book, Forget the Funnel. They dive deep into key concepts from the book, including specific Jobs-to-be-done interview examples and how to apply these insights to your marketing strategy. They also chat a bit about the process of writing a book. Topics we cover: 2:37 - Gia and Claire's intentional decision to keep the book under 200 pages 5:28 - What size SaaS companies will get the most value from Claire and Gia’s new book? 9:49 - The customer-led growth framework 11:29 - Why you shouldn’t think in terms of marketing funnels 15:51- Jobs-to-be done interviews 20:27- An approach for founders who are skeptical about customer research and JTBD interviews 25:15- How to use information gathered from customer interviews to inform your marketing strategy 29:47- What was the experience like recording the audiobook? Links from the Show: Claire Suellentrop @clairesuellen I Twitter Georgiana Laudi @ggiiaa) I Twitter Forget the Funnel: A Customer-Led Approach for Driving Predictable, Recurring Revenue  MicroConf Youtube Channel If you have questions about starting or scaling a software business that you’d like for us to cover, please submit your question for an upcoming episode. We’d love to hear from you. Subscribe & Review: iTunes | Spotify | Stitcher

Episode 665 | How to Find More "Best Fit" Customers for Your SaaS

In episode 664, join Rob Walling for a solo adventure where he answers more listener questions. These questions range from positioning a new SaaS product with many use cases to consumption vs. seat-based pricing and managing your time as a single parent. Episode Sponsor: Find your perfect developer or a team at Lemon.io/startups The competition for incredible engineers and developers has never been more fierce. Lemon.io helps you cut through the noise and find great talent through its network of engineers in Europe and Latin America. They take care of the vetting, interviewing, and testing of candidates to make sure that you are working with someone who can hit the ground running. When it comes to hiring, the time it takes to write your job description, list the position, review resumes, schedule interviews, and make an offer can take weeks, if not months. With Lemon.io, you can cut down on a lot of that time by tapping into their wide network of developers who can get started in as early as a week. And for subscribers of Startups For the Rest of Us, you can get 15% off your first 4 week contract with a developer by visiting lemon.io/startups Topics we cover: 2:07 - Positioning a new SaaS business with multiple use cases 9:22 - Consumption vs. seat-based pricing 13:00 - When to expand a SaaS business outside of the core problem it solves 19:07 - Building a marketing flywheel for a 2-sided marketplace 22:23- Managing your time as a single parent Links from the Show: Obviously Awesome: How to Nail Product Positioning so Customers Get It, Buy It, Love It  Start Small, Stay Small: A Developer’s Guide To Launching a Startup  The SaaS Playbook MicroConf Youtube Channel If you have questions about starting or scaling a software business that you’d like for us to cover, please submit your question for an upcoming episode. We’d love to hear from you. Subscribe & Review: iTunes | Spotify | Stitcher

Episode 664 | The Challenges of Horizontal SaaS, Adding Services to a SaaS, and More Listener Questions

In episode 663, Rob Walling and Einar Vollset share five insights SaaS founders should know about the state of AI. They offer a unique perspective by sharing a mental model around the four categories of AI and how to use this to think about the impact on your business. Topics we cover: 2:08 - Einar’s thoughts on the state of AI 7:11 - Why you shouldn’t ignore AI 9:33 - The 4 categories of AI 18:36 - AI is not a product differentiator 22:01- Should bootstrapped companies try to build their own LLMs? 24:41- Using AI internally in your company 30:03 - Is my business model a ticking time bomb? Links from the Show: Einar Vollset (@einarvollset) I Twitter MicroConf Europe MicroConf Youtube Channel If you have questions about starting or scaling a software business that you’d like for us to cover, please submit your question for an upcoming episode. We’d love to hear from you. Subscribe & Review: iTunes | Spotify | Stitcher

Episode 663 | 5 Insights SaaS Founders Should Know About A.I. (Ignore at Your Peril)

In episode 662, join Rob Walling for a solo listening adventure where he talks through the key factors to consider in an acquisition, whether to sell a business for five years of runway and knowing when to move on from a SaaS app you built. Topics we cover: 1:15 - Switching jobs while bootstrapping 7:36 - Key factors to consider for an acquisition 18:57 - Taking a job as a founding engineer vs. starting a lifestyle business? 23:49 - Selling a business for five years of runway 27:47- Knowing when it is time to move on from a SaaS app you’ve built Links from the Show: The Art of Selling Your Business: Winning Strategies & Secret Hacks For Exiting on Top Deploy Empathy: A Practical Guide to Interviewing Customers  The Mom Test: How to Talk to Customers & Learn If Your Business is a Good Idea When Everyone Is Lying To You  Episode 628 I The 5 P.M. Idea Validation Framework  MicroConf Europe MicroConf Youtube Channel If you have questions about starting or scaling a software business that you’d like for us to cover, please submit your question for an upcoming episode. We’d love to hear from you. Subscribe & Review: iTunes | Spotify | Stitcher

Episode 662 | Selling for Five Years of Runway, Profit vs. Revenue Multiples, and More Listener Questions (Rob Solo)

In episode 661, Rob Walling chats with Mike Perham, the founder of Sidekiq, who is a solo founder doing millions in revenue as a one-person business. If this isn’t unique enough, Sidekiq originally started as an open-source project before he later monetized it by selling features that aren't available in the core product. You'll also hear how it took him ten years to become "an overnight success" because of all the things Mike tried before launching Sidekiq. Episode Sponsor: Find your perfect developer or a team at Lemon.io/startups The competition for incredible engineers and developers has never been more fierce. Lemon.io helps you cut through the noise and find great talent through its network of engineers in Europe and Latin America. They take care of the vetting, interviewing, and testing of candidates to make sure that you are working with someone who can hit the ground running. When it comes to hiring, the time it takes to write your job description, list the position, review resumes, schedule interviews, and make an offer can take weeks, if not months. With Lemon.io, you can cut down on a lot of that time by tapping into their wide network of developers who can get started in as early as a week. And for subscribers of Startups For the Rest of Us, you can get 15% off your first 4 week contract with a developer by visiting lemon.io/startups Topics we cover: 2:51 - Sidekiq’s unique business model 5:24 - Running a multimillion-dollar software company with no employees 6:41 - How did Mike get here? 8:23 - Mike’s approach to monetizing Sidekiq 12:58- The 10-year overnight success story 14:13 - Did Mike ever have any doubts about this not working? 16:54- Mike’s thoughts around building on top of the Ruby ecosystem 19:26 - Why doesn't Mike hire any employees? 23:31- Mike’s approach to competitors 26:08 - Mike’s response to open-source purists on Hacker News Links from the Show: Mike Perham (@getajobmike) I Twitter Sidekiq Code Code Ship: Mike Perham Hacker News Discussion about Sidekiq MicroConf Youtube Channel If you have questions about starting or scaling a software business that you’d like for us to cover, please submit your question for an upcoming episode. We’d love to hear from you. Subscribe & Review: iTunes | Spotify | Stitcher

Episode 661 | Millions in Revenue As a One-Person Software Company

In episode 660, join Rob Walling for another solo listening adventure where he talks about the tradeoffs of hiring a team vs. contractors, when to raise funding as a bootstrapper, and the importance of knowing what you are bad at. Episode Sponsor: Find your perfect developer or a team at Lemon.io/startups The competition for incredible engineers and developers has never been more fierce. Lemon.io helps you cut through the noise and find great talent through its network of engineers in Europe and Latin America. They take care of the vetting, interviewing, and testing of candidates to make sure that you are working with someone who can hit the ground running. When it comes to hiring, the time it takes to write your job description, list the position, review resumes, schedule interviews, and make an offer can take weeks, if not months. With Lemon.io, you can cut down on a lot of that time by tapping into their wide network of developers who can get started in as early as a week. And for subscribers of Startups For the Rest of Us, you can get 15% off your first 4 week contract with a developer by visiting lemon.io/startups Topics we cover: 1:57 - Hiring full-time employees vs. contractors 6:12 - The danger of thinking your customers are just like you 11:19 - Buying souvenirs 14:34 - Raising funding if you are a bootstrapper 18:18- On career progression 21:51 - The importance of knowing what you are bad at Links from the Show: Comic Lab MicroConf Mastermind Matching MicroConf Youtube Channel If you have questions about starting or scaling a software business that you’d like for us to cover, please submit your question for an upcoming episode. We’d love to hear from you. Subscribe & Review: iTunes | Spotify | Stitcher

Episode 660 | Make Ever-Increasing and Manageably-Sized Mistakes (A Rob Solo Adventure)

In episode 659, Rob Walling speaks with Courtland Allen and Channing Allen, the co-founders of Indie Hackers, to talk about their newfound independence since they are no longer owned by Stripe. For the first half of the episode, they turn the tables and interview Rob about his new book, The SaaS Playbook. They also share a bunch of theories about entrepreneurship and investing. Topics we cover: 4:46 - About Rob’s new book - The SaaS Playbook 6:47 - Why did Rob hire a writing coach? 12:35 - Rob’s decision to launch a Kickstarter for his book 20:39- Rob’s thought process for what to include in his book 28:31 - Startup positioning 31:07 - Founder mindset 35:51 - Is it possible to find a business idea that both makes money and aligns with the things you enjoy doing? 42:38 - What motivates Rob these days? 48:18 - Courtland and Channing’s approach to going indie again with Indie Hackers 53:46 - Did Courtland and Channing have hesitations about going independent again? 57:44 - What does Rob want to see Courtland and Channing do next? 1:01:07 - Indie hackers investing in other indie hackers Links from the Show: Courtland Allen (@csallen) I Twitter Channing Allen (@channingallen) I Twitter Indie Hackers The Personal MBA: Master the Art of Business The War of Art Lifting the Veil: The Data Behind Successful Product Launches - Ryan Delk - MicroConf 2014 MicroConf Upcoming Events MicroConf Mastermind Matching MicroConf Youtube Channel If you have questions about starting or scaling a software business that you’d like for us to cover, please submit your question for an upcoming episode. We’d love to hear from you. Subscribe & Review: iTunes | Spotify | Stitcher

Episode 659 | Indie Hackers' Newfound Independence + The SaaS Playbook with Courtland and Channing

In episode 658, Rob Walling speaks with Geoff Roberts, co-founder of Outseta, about global sales tax compliance for SaaS founders. Geoff wrote a 4,400 article on the topic about when SaaS founders should care about sales tax not only within their own country but globally, along with the pros and cons of various solutions. We also dive into a bit of Geoff’s own story as the cofounder of Outseta. Topics we cover: 3:01 - Why should SaaS founders care about sales tax? 4:20 - At what revenue level does sales tax become important? 6:28 - Country-specific sales tax obligations 7:50 - The added tax complexities of running a membership platform 9:07 - What is a merchant of record? 14:28 - Why did Geoff write this 4,000-word post on sales tax compliance? 16:05 - The pros and cons of using a third-party merchant of record 17:39 - Alternative solutions where you are your own merchant of record 20:38 - How does a foreign government enforce tax requirements for an American small business? 21:48 - Mitigating sales tax risks if you take on funding or sell the company 23:34 - About Outseta 24:27 - The impact of the pandemic on Outseta 25:20 - The challenge of speaking to two very different audiences Links from the Show: Geoff Roberts @GeoffTRoberts I Twitter Outseta Global Sales Tax Compliance and Remittance  MicroConf Mastermind Matching MicroConf Youtube Channel If you have questions about starting or scaling a software business that you’d like for us to cover, please submit your question for an upcoming episode. We’d love to hear from you. Subscribe & Review: iTunes | Spotify | Stitcher

Episode 658 | As a SaaS Founder, When Should You Care About Sales Tax?

In episode 657, join Rob Walling as he answers more listener questions. Topics range from concierge onboarding to getting higher engagement rates on cold emails. He also covers how to think about balancing product improvements vs. marketing. Topics we cover: 1:00 - Concierge onboarding 7:34 - Branding tips for a new business 14:42 - Getting higher engagement rates on cold outreach emails 21:29 - Prioritizing product improvements vs. funnel-building 14:42 - Getting higher engagement rates on cold outreach emails 21:29 - Prioritizing product improvements vs. funnel-building Links from the Show: Fascinate, Revised and Updated: How to Make Your Brand Impossible to Resist TinySeed  MicroConf Youtube Channel If you have questions about starting or scaling a software business that you’d like for us to cover, please submit your question for an upcoming episode. We’d love to hear from you. Subscribe & Review: iTunes | Spotify | Stitcher

Episode 657 | Concierge Onboarding, Building a Great Brand, and More Listener Questions

In episode 656, join Rob Walling for another solo adventure, where he revisits a few topics from earlier episodes. These topics range from balancing having taste while shipping consistently to the only two keys to being remembered for something. Topics we cover: 1:39 - What founders need to know about the Section 174 tax change 5:03 - Balancing developing taste with shipping 10:47 - If you want to be remembered for something, you either have to be the first or the best. 17:13 - Lifestyle bootstrapper vs. ambitious bootstrapper vs. the billion-dollar entrepreneur and why you need to get clear on the path you aspire to take. Links from the Show: Small Software Business Coalition Letter To Congress  Episode 652 I Mixing No-code with Code, Developer Superpowers, $5k Angel Check, and More Listener Questions Obviously Awesome: How to Nail Product Positioning so Customers Get It, Buy It, Love It  The SaaS Playbook  TinySeed  MicroConf Youtube Channel If you have questions about starting or scaling a software business that you’d like for us to cover, please submit your question for an upcoming episode. We’d love to hear from you. Subscribe & Review: iTunes | Spotify | Stitcher

Episode 656 | Taste vs. Shipping + Being First vs. Being the Best (A Rob Solo Adventure)

It’s possible to build a multimillion dollar startup without venture capital. I know this, because I’ve done it myself and I’ve watched hundreds of other founders do the same. This podcast is all about the strategies and frameworks that can get you there too. Welcome to Startups For the Rest of Us, a podcast that’s focused on helping developers, designers and entrepreneurs build life-changing businesses without begging venture capitalists for money. You’re in the right place if you’re a bootstrapped or mostly bootstrapped SaaS founder who wants to build and grow your company faster. I’m your host, Rob Walling. I’m a serial entrepreneur with multiple exits, I’ve written 4 books about starting companies, and I’ve invested in more than 150 startups. For over 13 years, I’ve shown up here every Tuesday sharing my experience starting, growing, and mentoring startups, so you can avoid the mistakes others have made. When I first got started, I realized that most of the startup advice I could find online was aimed at companies focused on billion dollar exits, or founders looking to build a slide deck instead of a real business. I was constantly frustrated that no one was providing stories, strategies and tactics for founders who just want to build a real product for real customers who pay them real money. If you want to launch a startup, or grow your SaaS startup so it supports you full-time, OR you’re already making six or seven figures and want to grow your business faster, the stories, strategies, and tactics on this show will help you do just that. Go ahead and subscribe and I’ll be in your ears next Tuesday. Links from the Pod: Rob Walling | Twitter Startups For the Rest of Us | Twitter MicroConf YouTube Channel

Startups For The Rest Of Us Podcast Trailer

The original podcast for bootstrapped and mostly bootstrapped startups, this show follow the stories of founders as they start, acquire, and grow SaaS companies. Hear when they fail, struggle, succeed, and take you with them through the tumultuous life of a SaaS founder. If you like Mixergy, This Week in Startups, or SaaStr, you’ll enjoy Startup for the Rest of Us.

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Startups For the Rest of Us

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