Hi John, welcome to saunatimes. I thought I’d start by having you share how and when you first got started with the WHM and cold water exposure. Most of my life I’ve had a terrible relationship to the cold. I hated cold water and if it dropped below 60F I would bundle up like I was preparing for an Arctic adventure. In 2013, when a friend let me know about a Wim Hof workshop that was being held in Austin, all I saw was a picture of Wim sitting in a barrel of ice and though “No way!! Why would I pay money to go sit in ice water?!” My resistance was strong enough, however, that it made me curious, and I signed up. Those first two ice baths with Wim that weekend were miserable, but life-changing. The big issue with living in central Texas – a sub-tropical climate – is that cold water is not readily available. It wasn’t until 3 years later after experiencing two years of brutal insomnia that I found the amazing benefits of a regular cold water practice. After spending thousands of dollars on various insomnia treatments from many different kinds of approaches and modalities – none of which provided any lasting benefit – a friend who is a Wim Hof Method instructor suggested that I try cold water immersion before bed. I bought a hundred pound of ice, filled up my bathtub, and got the best night’s sleep I’d had in two years. I did that three more times before realizing that hauling ice was going to get expensive and take a lot of time. That’s what motivated me to look into other ways to get cold water. What did your early cold plunge set up look like? My cold plunge has been through a number of evolutions through the years. The very first thing I did after ice baths was buy a Whirlpool 15 cubic foot chest freezer and fill it with water. That was great until three days later I opened it up and discovered a few rivers of rust pouring out of the seams.  The ice chest freezer for cold plunge, why is it such a “winner” for DIY cold plunge enthusiasts? People love DIY for a few different reasons. For many who don’t have the budget to buy a commercially made cold plunge, the DIY route is financially motivated.  A basic setup with a used chest freezer can be created for less than a few hundred dollars. Even a very well equipped high-end chest freezer setup can cost less – in some cases *way* less, than half of the commercially made models.    Let’s talk about your Chest Freezer Cold Plunge book, how did that come about?  After having a number of problems and issues with my chest freezer cold plunge experiments and finally getting it dialed in, I wanted to start a group where we could talk about various issues and brainstorm ideas. It only took a month or two before I noticed many people asking the same basic questions. So I wrote a FAQ. That expanded pretty quickly to 13 pages, and I still felt like it wasn’t detailed enough, so I decided to write a book. Editor’s note: Link to John’s book is here. You have helped many others adapt their chest freezer for cold plunge, including the starting of your Facebook group. How did that start and how is that going? When I started learning about converting a chest freezer into a cold plunge, there were maybe 30,000 people in the Wim Hof Method Facebook group, but only a few posts about chest freezers. And most of those posts were “Hey I did this!” but lacking “How I did this.” The posts were also hard to keep track of and follow with all of the other content being posted. I had a sense that a separate group to discuss making a cold plunge from a chest freezer would be helpful. I asked one of the Wim Hof group admins if he would be OK with me starting a separate group. He said yes, and let me post a couple of messages about it. It grew from there. “Contrast therapy” is a big thing. Please comment on sauna AND cold plunge, as peanut butter and jelly, or 1+1=3? I love hot tubs and saunas. As I mentioned, I hated the cold for most of my life. When I was looking for apartments, my # 1 criteria after location was “Does it have a hot tub!” The last apartment I lived in for four years had a sauna, and I thought I was in heaven. I don’t have one where I live now, but have experienced contrast therapy at a few resorts, spas, and natural springs that I have been to over the years. One of my goals is to add a sauna at home. I’ve read some of the research and know that the benefits are awesome. Contrast therapy provides a huge metabolic workout. I suspect that it is not a matter of either hot or cold, rather one of both hot and cold. I know cold by itself has tremendous benefits. Adding a sauna to that practice seems to have an exponential benefit. After reading Dr. Rhonda Patrick’s papers on heat shock and cold shock, I’m a believer in the value of both. Editor’s note: further reading: with cold plunge and sauna, 1+1=3.

Sauna Talk

John Richter: Chest Freezer Cold Plunge Writer, Promoter, Evangelist

I’m pleased to present my second Sauna Talk podcast interview with Daryl Lamppa. Who is Daryl Lamppa? A third generation sauna stove builder, born and bread in Tower, Minnesota. 100% Finn, and married to a Finn, Cheryl. After marriage, as a young man, Daryl and his father in law built their newlywed house, and milled lumber for the build from Norway pines on their property. Daryl and Cheryl have lived in this house their entire lives. She a former schoolteacher in town, and he a welder of the Vapor Fire wood burning home furnace and Kuuma wood burning sauna stove. I am pretty sure that Daryl is one of the leading living experts in wood burning technology. And I will put money on it, that nobody alive has spent more time researching and analyzing wood burning technology than Daryl Lamppa. First time I met Daryl Lamppa Over thirty years, recently moved to the area. Interested in building my first sauna, to replicate the awesome experience I had rebuilding a cottage on the Baltic Archipelago. Birch and Flounder, peel and boil potatoes. Walked into his shop, did all is own welding back then. I got into into sauna building in large part part because of the Kuuma stove. Thanks to the Kuuma I was able to finally experience the quality of heat that I knew so well from my time on the Baltic. Fast forward to our second Sauna Talk podcast interview. Meeting up with Daryl Lamppa There I was in my fishing boat, heading for my visit with my friend and wood burning sauna devotee Daryl Lamppa. About midway across Big Bay, the irony of the moment hit me. Here in the Northland of Minnesota, it has been an unseasonably hot and dry summer. Forest fires in Canada and super warm calm weather had created a gloomy hazy hot atmosphere for my boat ride. The smell of smoke was strong., and here I was, heading to meet one of the world’s premier experts on clean burning wood. As I tied up to Daryl’s dock, I couldn’t help but take notice of his custom dock frame. Nobody builds a dock like this, I thought. The welds were uniform and clean. The dock frame design was criss crossed and laid out perfectly spaced. This was a hand made dock of shiny stainless steel. The dock could have been five years old or 55 years old. Nobody builds docks like this. Well nobody except Daryl Lamppa. Daryl’s sauna and homestead Daryl greets me from his back door, and we head over to his sauna. Part of the purpose of my visit is to develop a plan for fixing up the Lamppa homestead sauna. The Cobbler’s kid’s shoes syndrome is in full effect as the sauna is a neglected relic from the 1930s, maybe earlier. Toys for the grandkids are stored in the cool down room. “This was the sauna for the resort that used to be here that was part of this land when we bought it.” We talk through our plan on how to remove the old hand built beast of a stove, and what to do about the original wall paneling and benches. “We can take apart the benches and just flip over the boards. Maybe sand them a bit.” We turn our attention to his house. I’m pretty sure it’s the house he and his wife Cheryl moved into when they were married. Daryl and his father in law built the house, by hand, using lumber milled from the trees taken from the property. And we are talking big Norways and White Pine. Daryl is all Finnish. All matter of fact. Simple short sentences that tell a story. “He was a tree cutter. We took down these trees ourselves. We had lumber milled from these big trees. It was a lot of work.” Next I’m drawn to his woodpile, two woodpiles, actually. One neat stack left and right, guarding his driveway. Each pile is stacked perfectly. “That’s 5 cords each. We heat our house all winter with 5 cords. Pointing to the left: “I’ll bring all this down to the basement in the fall. And this over here, well, i just stacked this pile a few weeks ago. These are for next winter.” “Birch is the best.” He tells me, and of course, I’m nodding in agreement. “I want about 20% moisture. The heat is in the gasses. Wood that’s too dry doesn’t produce as much heat.” Off to the old factory We hop in Daryl’s pickup truck. “Nice truck” I say. “It’s from 2003, and has 23,000 miles on it. I only drive it to the shop and back, and maybe church, that’s about it.” I ask him if his truck has ever been to Minneapolis: “No.” The original Lamppa Manufacturing building sits in a residential neighborhood just a couple blocks off Main Street, Tower, Minnesota. (Population 500). Daryl’s Father ran the family milk distribution company out of this building originally. Then it moved over to full time sauna stove building in 1974. The building sits virtually empty now, as the entire operation has moved across town. The items in the building today are very few. There’s a clock on the wall (circa 1974), and an old radio (circa 1974) that Daryl turns on by plugging it in. Two chairs are positioned about 6 feet away from Daryl’s most recent Kuuma, and he has been working in secret and solitude on improving the burning efficiency and method of his Kuuma sauna stove. This one looks like any other other Kuuma, but Daryl is deep into the testing of this one. He takes only a couple sentences to warm up to me, knowing how much I love Sauna Talk, and wood burning technology, particularly. And Daryl is comfortable here, in his old factory, where he has spent most his life welding, cutting, and constructing thousands of Kuumas. I know most who own a Kuuma would get a chuckle on “how could you make a Kuuma any better?” But that’s Daryl. A life long dedication to his craft. I am overjoyed to call Daryl Lamppa my friend. And before I turn it over to this interview, three things. First, Daryl’s son Garrett has recently left his post as Hospitality Director at the area casino resort in town to come over as Director of Operations, full time, as fourth generation sauna stove builder. You’ll hear what Daryl thinks of his son’s transition to the family business (a very Finnish answer!). For me, I am overjoyed that Lamppa Manufacturing is in great position to remain 100% family owned and operated. A big credit for helping shore up Lamppa Manufacturing is Operations Manager Dale Horahan. Dale, as good fate would have it, moved to the area with his wife about 10 years ago, with an idea of retirement. At that time, Garrett showed not much interest in the business, and Dale was thinking of selling out. The company just couldn’t make money, and, frankly, the hard manual business of making stoves was taking its toll on Daryl’s knees and spirit. Dale has spent his career in manufacturing and building businesses. Dale and Daryl met a few times with an idea towards Dale taking over Lamppa Manufacturing. Dale, though, had higher aspirations and, like me, felt a higher spirit towards Lamppa Manufacturing. Dale’s list of contributions to helping Lamppa Manufacturing are too long to list here. He helped transition the company from the old building to a new building, streamlined operations, hired more quality help, and countless other critical contributions, without which Lamppa Manufacturing may not have made it to the solid enterprise that it is today. The second piece I’d like to share is that, in full disclosure, I am a reseller of the Kuuma stove. My title for the company is Director of Sales. It is not a full time position, nor do I want it to be. I don’t want to tax the company with a salary or expense. Like Dale, my devotion is to help grow Lamppa Manufacturing as a healthy, family owned company. A good employer in the community, and the producer of the most kick ass sauna stove in the world. In that spirit, the third thing I’d like to share, to send off this introduction, are a few comments from a recent Facebook post.

Sauna Talk: Daryl Lamppa, Third Generation Sauna Stove Builder

Today on Sauna Talk, we’re pleased to welcome Lassi A. Liikkanen, author of “The Secrets of Finnish Sauna Design”. The book is just now being released, end of April 2021. We start our conversation in a good place, with Lassi’s early beginnings of sauna (before he could walk). And we transition into the definition of sauna, which for listeners new to sauna, is a great place for understanding. We layout what is a sauna from a design perspective. For example, the sauna heater is usually visible, and a center point of the sauna. We talk about how in this time of remote work, many are using their home saunas as offices. There is usually a sauna in most apartments in Finland, and traditionally, saunas in apartments and homes are one room usually operated as primary function, just a couple hours a few times a week. The rest of the time it is sitting still. They have natural bench systems, ideal for sitting and home offices. The small integrated sauna. In apartments. Nothing under 30 square feet. We discuss the 50 square foot sauna, either 7×7 or 8×6 as a “good size” for most use case. During our Sauna Talk: Lassi A. Liikkanen, author of “The Secrets of Finnish Sauna Design”, divides his book into four sections. He calls it: The Four-Leaf Clover Model of Great Sauna Design: 1. heat 2. air quality 3. interior design 4. culture & company The Secrets of Finnish Sauna Design The unified definition of sauna. It would be great if those things that aren’t sauna could be called something different than sauna, to help clear up misconceptions about the practice as well as the reported health benefits.

Sauna Talk: Lassi A. Liikkanen

Let’s welcome Eero Kipi to Sauna Talk! President of North American Sauna Society. The time we are living is very exciting. More and more people are becoming interested in and aware of the authentic sauna practice. In this episode, we get an understanding from Eero about his upbringing with sauna. And this experience is most likely not much different from most all Finns. A country of “more saunas than cars” and a country where many start taking saunas before they are old enough to start walking. Eero understands good sauna. The North America Sauna Society was founded in 2004. Sauna bathing is a very well regulated process with no regulation.

Sauna Talk: Eero Kipi, North American Sauna Society

Sauna Talk global series continues. Today we welcome Sauna Sherpa to Sauna Talk. His real name is Kimmo Raitio, but he’s known around many of the many saunas in Finland as Sauna Sherpa. He is a Sauna Sherpa guide to Finnish sauna. Like many Finns, (all Finns?) Kimmo grew up with sauna. Like many Finns (all Finns?) Kimmo takes good heat seriously, and welcomes those interested in learning more about sauna with a clear and open mind and discussion. And this is what you will hear in this episode. More and more tourists and business travelers were coming to Finland with a keen interest to experience the Finnish sauna. And so Kimmo began taking people around to different saunas in his homeland. This was how the concept of Sauna Sherpa came about. The global pandemic has put a hold on Sauna Sherpa, but the love for an appreciation of good sauna is still very much deep in his bones. Sauna Sherpa guide to Finnish sauna In this episode, we hear interesting antidotes of the Finnish sauna. When asked about what makes a good sauna, Kimmo, answers in succinctly Finnish style (very few words). Ventilation Heat Steam (humidity).We touch upon the nudity in sauna subject, and how it is in Finland, compared to Germany, Great Britain, and the United States. We discuss the rebound of the public sauna, as it is in Finland paralleling many parts of the World. The connection between Japan and Finland. Drinking beer, and the ethos of being healthy and happy with sauna.

Sauna Talk: Sauna Sherpa Guides People Into The World Of The Finnish Sauna

On this episode of Sauna Talk, we are able to visit with Dr. Zestcott about a current study under way regarding sauna mental health studies for the Sauna Research Institute. This is a survey based study analyzing the mental health benefits to sauna. The link to the sauna mental health studies work is here. It’s particularly interesting to learn how Colin has a keen experience and understanding of what we know of as “good sauna.” The real sauna with good heat and proper cool downs which can include a range of coldness including a lake swim, cold plunge, snow angels, a bucket of water over ones’ head. Colin is reporting in from Duluth Minnesota where he teaches at the College of St. Scholastica, a place where a high of one degree above zero Fahrenheit is not uncommon. research surrounding sauna mental health studies We learn about the budding tree of scientific mental health studies. How survey based work follows certain protocols. We discuss how sauna can potentially be applied to help people in areas such as anxiety and PTSD. We draw upon some work that has taken place with the Native American Sweatlodge and veterans. Much more can be done with global in broad ranging collaboration. I’m doing my best to get the word out on this study as the more participants involved means more sound data to build upon for the study as well as next phase of research. So, I hope you are able to respond to the request for participants for this study. The email address is saunastudy@gmail.com . Please welcome to Sauna Talk Dr. Colin Zestcott.

Sauna Talk: Dr. Colin Zestcott Leading Research On Sauna Mental Health Studies

The Sauna Talk global cross continent series continues We are pleased to welcome Mika Meskanen and his partner Wendy Liu to this joint podcast. We are publishing this episode on Sauna Talk as well as on their new podcast. Mika and Wendy are fresh on the beginnings of their enterprise entitled: Saunawave where they look to be “hosting meetings with remarkable heat seekers and embark on secret journeys to explore the new wave of global sauna culture”. As a designer and an architect they are also keen to craft sauna experiences that are both innovative and true to tradition. This conversation happened via tele computer, late 2020. Glenn close to his Minneapolis backyard sauna and Mika and Wendy from their London home. A great visit, where Mika and Wendy were inquisitive about the American sauna culture and environment. Here, we talk about the Sauna Belt in the US, which compares only to the bible belt, rust belt, and other belts mentioned by Mika, only in comparative context that they are belts. We discuss how the best saunas are the ones that get used Mika is founder of the British Sauna Society. He and Wendy are a couple who have helped bring a growing and enthusiastic group of British sauna enthusiasts together. Mika by all rights should fill out a waiver form. As he is a Finn living in Great Britain, he has an inside track as to what good sauna means as it is surely in his DNA. Yet who better to lead the charge of the British Sauna Society. Wendy is a fearless and open-minded sauna explorer as well as a front-page ice free diver. Mika and Wendy are kind and thoughtful. They are kindred spirits. They understand and value the depth sauna. The soul of sauna, the goodness behind good sauna, and the sanctity of sauna. Authentic sauna.

Sauna Talk: Mika And Wendy From Great Britain

The Sauna Talk global cross continent series continues. We are pleased to welcome Mika Meskanen and partner Wendy to this joint podcast. Mika and Wendy are fresh on the beginnings of their enterprise entitled: …..,,,,,, where they look to be.. .. This conversation happened via tele computer, late 2020. Glenn close to his Minneapolis backyard sauna and Mika and Wendy from their London flat. A great visit, where Mike and Wendy were inquisitive about the American sauna culture and environment.

We are pleased to welcome Travis Skinner to Sauna Talk! We’ve been following Travis’ work since 2017, starting with his Snail Shell sauna project. This sauna build project is a creative nod to the Fibonacci Sequence, one of the most famous formulas in mathematics. In this episode you’ll hear from Travis about the origins of this sauna, using a yurt frame as a foundation for building this sauna. And let’s not forget the Steam Roller sauna. Here is a link that describes and illustrates the Steam Roller sauna build project. A really unique shape. A canted wall that helps draw and roll the steam in the hot room. Then, it’s on to the Angler Fish sauna project. We wrote this sauna build project in 2018. And now we get to hear from the creator, designer and builder: Travis Skinner. We’ll learn about the “stacking function of sauna.” Where sauna can be multi function, multi purpose. Travis has a key interest in collaboration. Coming together with other artisans to craft as much as possible with their hands. “Working with hand tools allow us to feel the materials we work with” explains Travis. On a side note, my interview with Travis reminded me of some of the most resonating aspects to sauna design and building. The right brain conceptualizing. Travis stays far away from what could be called “tradesmen dogma”. There is no “you should do this” or “don’t do that” with Travis and sauna building. Rules, rigidity, and fear are not a part of Travis’ mindset. Travis’ approach was so timely and refreshing to me. As I look to help others with their own sauna building projects, many are easy tripped up and entangled with fear based push backs from tradesmen: thermal bridging, moisture trapping, off gassing and other terms hidden as “advice”. You’d like to think that professional builders are really out to help people, but often they appear to want to pound their chests to the casual amateur sauna builder. Is it fear, insecurity, stubbornness? Who knows, but what we do know is that Travis exudes none of this. Travis is an artist in all the best sense of the word. He is as happy working with metal as he is with wood. He respects the origins of his material and is hyper conscious throughout his entire plan and build process. We catch up with Travis outside of his tiny house in Bellingham Bay, close to Canada in Washington State.To keep up with Travis and his creations, please visit him at www.100handed.org. Instagram @pairoducks

Sauna Talk: Travis Skinner Reminds Us That Sauna Building Can Be Art

Season 4 of Sauna Talk in the time of corona has been produced, like most all podcasts, via Zoom and teleconferencing. Yet this episode breaks that mold, where two people are gathered, once again, on the sauna bench to, er… sauna talk. Both Max and Glenn have been under pretty strict distancing: Glenn returning from 5 months on his island in Northeast Minnesota and Max running a tight ship, with his wife due in December with their third child. (eg. no messing around). So, this episode is a return to Sauna Talk on the bench Max comes to sauna, banya as its called back in his native land of Belarus, through a life long tradition and experience. “When I say 95 out of 100 of Belarusians go to sauna – I mean 95% of my friends and family that I know in Belarus go to sauna regularly.” This is the culture of sweat bathing in Belarus. Баня (Banya) is the Russian word for sauna; Лазьня (Laznya) is the Belarusian word for sauna, but most of the people who live in Belarus use word banya since they speak Russian as their first language.  Banya in Belarus is a way to get clean. Belarus is a country where the government shuts off hot water from time to time. Belarus is a country with not as developed plumbing infrastructure. Belarus is a country that is fucked up right now. Bad politics. Belarus is a country where people are beaten for protesting the system. People lose their jobs for speaking out. People disappear, and are never heard from again. Belarus is a country of great people, with a fucked up Government Max is committed to help support people in his homeland. Max is committed to build a mobile banya to help get people together. Mainly people from his country who have emigrated to Minnesota. Max and a lot of his friends who live in the US buy groceries for people in Belarus who lost their jobs due to their pro-democratic political beliefs and raise money to help people in Belarus in need.  Saunatimes is helping Max. This podcast introduces you to the wonderfulness of banya as something positive and galvanizing. In the wake of a lot of bullshit at home, Max stays positive and hopeful, thanks to his positive outlook and supported by the endorphin rushing through the authentic sauna/banya experience.

Sauna Talk: Max Valadzko from the Backyard Belarus Banya Bench

As we celebrate the 10 year anniversary of sauna book “The Opposite of Cold”, we are pleased to visit with author Mike Nordskog, Mike was close to between sauna rounds at his home in Southwest Wisconsin. Glenn was Zoomed up from his island lake cabin in Northeast Minnesota.The sauna building journey vs. destination The iterative process of sauna building allows us to create a sauna that works for us, individually. The story behind “the Opposite of Cold” A resurgence and interest in authentic sauna, particularly in the Upper Midwest. DIY Finnish carpentry to do the details – window molding and attention to detail. Finnish immigrants, more saunas per mile than in Finland, Cotton, or Toivola, Carlton County. What is authentic sauna? Water in the hot room. Not just on the rocks, but ideally a room that you can bathe in there. Ritual aspect that take time. Common sense design principles, eg. two tiers of benches where the upper bench is close to the ceiling, otherwise you are leaving a lot of heat on the table. The law of löyly – sitting on the upper bench, your feet are at the height of the sauna rocks. Perfect Sweat A symposium of sauna enthusiasts at Archimedes Banya. Invited by Mikkel Aaland. Authors and journalists, people from all over the world joining together in San Francisco in 2014. Sauna is a pretty intimate thing. “you guys go over and use it for a couple rounds.” An intimate space where you are close to people. Sweating, your body is going through a stressor and inducing a discharge. Sauna is a resurgence but in places like Northern Minnesota, it was never lost. The rhythm of sauna The opposite of cold. The building allows you to counteract the harshness of winter. The counterpoint of cold. Savusauna has their own peril. The smoke sauna is hard to maintain and keep active. In the evening to prime your appetite and set up a good night’s sleep. Harnessing the courage for the cold plunge. Completely perfectly in the moment during the equilibrium moment after cold plunge. What is most misunderstood about sauna? You can use at your own level of comfort. The intent of the book: to get the authenticities of sauna on record.

Sauna Talk: Mike Nordskog, Author Of “The Opposite Of Cold”

Cold & Heat It’s interesting how many come to appreciate sauna from the cold, and conversely how many come to appreciate the cold from sauna. Whichever the point of introduction, Jesse and I agree that with cold plunge and sauna, 1+1=3. You’ll hear from Jesse why this is. We will hear about his personal journey towards the powerful goodness of breath work and cold exposure. For most all Finns and sauna owners in Nordic regions of Europe and similar climates in North America, we refer to a few sauna round and a jump into a nICE cold lake just something you do. The practice is built into the rhythm of the day. “I’m going to cut the grass then go sauna.” Or “the sauna will be hot around 5pm, come on by.” Contrast Therapy Yet for athletes looking for an edge, or folks stressed out, or others with a varied list of mental and physical problems, we are seeing some serious positivity with “contrast therapy.” Jesse’s Bio Jesse Coomer is an author, professional breathworker, cold training expert, certified Wim Hof Method instructor, personal trainer and a Professor of English at Vincennes University, Indiana. He’s also a voice of practicality in the world of breathwork and cold exposure on his YouTube channel, Midwestern Method.  On a personal note, Jesse and I share a timeline. We each first learned about Wim Hof back in 2015. We each followed our own path into the Wim Hof Method and all its goodness. You can hear my interview with Wim on this same Sauna Talk podcast. Jesse was one of the first handful of certified Wim Hof instructors in the US. His passion for living well through breath work and cold exposure comes through in this interview. Jesse has two ebooks available: A Practical Guide to Breath Work, And A Practical Guide to Cold Training. Well worth it for those of us interested in diving deeper into the cold and goodness. So, let’s welcome Jesse Coomer to Sauna Talk!

Sauna Talk: Jesse Coomer Wrote The Books On Cold Exposure And Breath Work

Anyone lucky enough to have a hard copy of Mikkel Aaland’s 1978 book Sweat can page through his journey into the various sweat bathing practices and traditions from all over the World. Throughout his book, we enter with Mikkel into a Mayan Temescal, a Russian Banya, a Japanese Mushu-buru, a Native American Sweatlodge, and of course a Finnish sauna, amongst other cultural sweat tradition practices. Throughout his global journey, Mikkel gained an understanding of the common human experience. The communal experience and the experience of getting clean, and in my words, the ability to feel and say “aaaahhh” when water is tossed on hot rocks to create steam. As a young world traveler, Mikkel put it all together. He was able to connect the dots of these different “sweat” practices, and has helped us come to the realization that we, as humans, share a special bond of sweat practices, and we aren’t really all that different as a species. Fast forward to 2019, and Mikkel was deep into another form of world travel. He and film crew began revisiting these places and sweat traditions around the world for his documentary called Perfect Sweat. The documentary is currently in edit mode and has been halted by corona with a couple episodes still to go. We have the pleasure to visit with Mikkel in his homeland, Norway, at his homestead, outside on his deck, overlooking a majestic river and source of his cold plunges between sauna rounds. Though Mikkel and family live in San Francisco, he has had the good fortune of being able to spend his summers in Norway. During this “crazy year of 2020” he was able to squeeze his way out of the US and over to Norway, once again. We will hear about how being in lockdown at home during corona was a safety hazard. We’ll hear about Mikkel’s daily routine, which includes healing, hiking and sauna. Only someone of Mikkel’s background and perspective is able to share a very clear picture where we are at relative to the current pandemic and how it relates to gathering and sweating on a sauna bench. There is something in our history that is quite relevant, and I’m pleased to be able to share with you Mikkel’s observations and parallels during this interview. Mikkel Aaland is our first returning guest to Sauna Talk. We have had “the iceman” Wim Hof on Sauna Talk. We’ve had the seminal sauna researcher Jari Laukkanen on Sauna Talk. We’ve had author Scott Carney and the backyard acrobat Steve Freidricks on Sauna Talk. And now, for the second time, I am pleased to introduce Mikkel Aaland, our guest for this episode of Sauna Talk.

Sauna Talk: Mikkel Aaland, Author Of Sweat And The Perfect Sweat Documentary, Offers Us Six Decades Of Global Insight

Today on the bench, we hear from kindred spirits from across the big pond: Jake and Max Newport. As testament to our mutual love of authentic sauna, though this episode has been in the works for month, it was put together within minutes. I sent Jake an email, heard back right away, and we jumped on a Zoom call. We got right into the chatter, as mutual lovers of good sauna tend to do, and so it was easy to hit record and just make it happen. Doers vs. dreamers We hear the origins of Finnmark Sauna, from their first experience of Finnish sauna, to building a wood fired sauna in their family backyard, to the origins of their sauna business, Finnmark Sauna. Jake and Max are busy guys, helping customers all over Great Britain with their desire to own their own saunas. Dr. Mathew Walker Why We Sleep Could infrared cabin marketing hucksters be committing a cultural crime? Sauna is an experience to be enjoyed. There is an ethos in Great Britain that “the medicine should taste foul” and with exercise, “it must be painful to be good.” But with sauna, when we listen to our body, we tap into what wellness is all about. And really great sauna feels awesome. Sauna is not about forcing pain upon yourself.

Sauna Talk: The Sauna Twins From Finnmark Sauna In Great Britain

I first learned of Scott Carney as he was writing his 2016 book, What Doesn’t Kill Us, the story of Scott being commissioned by Playboy Magazine to write an article debunking the cold water deep breathing “iceman” Wim Hof. Scott went to Wim’s training center in Poland. His intention was to get into the depths of Wim’s cold water immersion therapy and deep breathing methods, to reveal the cracks and fallacies of the practice. And this was Scott’s specialty. He was on the heels of his 2015 book The Enlightenment Trap, (then entitled under the title A Death on Diamond Mountain). The book explores the cult like practices of adaptive, Americanized versions of Eastern religions. How guru’s in the US try to capitalize on “enlightenment” for their own finances and fame. For Scott Carney, a journalist and anthropologist who lived in India for six years, debunking myths is his specialty. Debunking Wim Hof So, back to those days at the Wim Hof training center in Poland, I can imagine Scott’s bullshit detector on high. He immersed himself with other guests who were paying money to learn the Wim Hof Method, under the direction and guidance of Wim himself. Deep breathing sessions followed by cold water immersions, and hiking up the nearby mountain wearing minimal clothing. Yet during Scott’s time with Wim, sitting with Wim on his sauna bench, something unexpected and remarkable took place. Scott became a convert to the practice and the benefits of the Wim Hof Method. Not a “hmm, this is interesting” type benefit, but some deep profound improvement in mental clarity, physical endurance, and overall a “getting high on his own supply” as Wim says. Happy, Healthy, Strong. So, Scott’s Playboy Assignment morphed into the book “What Doesn’t Kill Us.” The critic became the convert. And the Foreward to the book is written by Wim himself. I started doing the Wim Hof Method myself, back around that time, in 2015. It is such a natural extension to what we love: sauna and then cold plunging. It all just made sense to me. For decades, I would do push ups on my dock in the morning, then dive deep and long into our cool Northern Minnesota lake, finding great meditative calm along the bottom of the lake, often just suspended down along the depths, as a big fish would do, in no hurry to come to the surface. This was my own Wim Hof Method before I heard of Wim Hof. Close encounters with Wim Hof What Doesn’t Kill Us treats us to intimate one on one connections with Wim, the crazy mastermind with several endurance world records yet arguably best known for beating back the flu like effects from being injected with an endotoxin, at a research hospital in Holland, all through power of the mind: deep breathing exercises that help us control our autonomic nervous system, a feat that up until then, medical science insisted could not be possible. What’s even more significant is that after the scientists wrote off the feat as Wim being a freak of nature, Wim himself trained a group of people not familiar with his method for only a few days. Then, this group was also injected with the endotoxin, and they all beat back the flu symptoms, just like Wim himself. This study was remarkable. As Wim says, “it has changed modern science forever” and you can read more about it in Scott Carney’s book. Also, the book ends with Scott hiking Mount Kilimanjaro, the tallest peak in Africa, with Wim and others. I won’t spoil it except to say that Scott and Wim make it to the top. It is a crazy adventure, extremely well written and funny. Scott’s recent work Then, I recently heard Scott being interviewed by my friend Mindstrong Harvey on his podcast. Scott is great to listen to. He’s got such a depth of knowledge and tells really clear, interesting stories to support his knowledge, without sounding pedantic or cocky in any way. He is interesting and interested. As a journalist, he is naturally curious. Needless to say, I’d like to hang out more with Scott Carney. Scott is happy to talk about his new book The Wedge and in this episode we dive deep into parts of his new book. The wedge, simply defined, is the space between stimulus and response. We sauna lovers know all about the Wedge. When we toss water on the rocks and feel that heavy blast of löyly, we don’t rush for the sauna door but we close our eyes and take it in. In Finland, it is polite to shut up during this time. Actually, in Finland, it’s probably polite to shut up most times, but when we create a wedge between stimulus – the blast of steam, and response – rushing out of the room, as we know, this is when magic happens. And same for the cool down. When we exit the hot room and immerse ourself in ice cold water, the conditioned response is to yelp like a cocker spaniel and resist the cold. But we sauna enthusiasts have reprogrammed ourselves to embrace this feeling. We listen to our core, not our skin. “Thank you brain for telling me to get out of this cold water. We understand that we, as humans, are conditioned to resist and activate a flight response when we feel ice cold water, but we are on a different path now. We are embracing this cold water as part of the wonderfulness of sauna therapy.” The Wedge Instead of all this chatter, now we have a simple word for this internal monologue: The Wedge. We talk about the chapter in his book called “Red Line” where he and his wife go to Latvia for a long sauna ritual, and we talk about other examples in the book that help us understand the power of the Wedge. Scott is one of us. He owns his own sauna, and is often found chilling out between rounds outside his own backyard sauna retreat. If you’re like me, you’ll be nodding your head up and down page after page while reading the Wedge. Scott has a way of saying what we feel, and have felt for a long time. When we become under stress is when we are most human. Regarding hot/cold therapy: It’s like lifting weights for our vascular system. Especially nice to hear Scott’s impressions of what is most misunderstood about sauna. Often, sauna is viewed as a post work out regimen. A sense of community is what is missing. We don’t have to take sauna so seriously. We can have fun with sauna. I am super pleased to bring you this episode of Sauna Talk. Please welcome Scott Carney.

Sauna Talk: Scott Carney, investigative journalist

Sauna Talk is a show about the authentic sauna experience. Recorded (often) on the sauna bench, we talk with interesting guests about sauna including such aspects as building sauna, enjoying sauna, and health and wellness benefits to sauna. The rising sauna tide is lifting many boats and we look forward to some left turns that we hope to keep listeners on and off the more enjoyable and less trampled authentic sauna trail.

hubhopper

Sauna Talk

hubhopper