Over the past decade, we’ve been honored to hear numerous queer folks describing their individual challenges of exploring sexuality and celebrating their orientation in religious contexts. We are thrilled to have Bernie and Chris share their relational story in this podcast episode. They discuss the null curriculum of sex education in the church, how churches encourage queer identities without encouraging being full sexual people, and how couples can collaborate around sexual evolution. Let's heal togethe

Sexvangelicals

Bernie and Chris' Story: Community, Transcendence, and Queer Relationships

Linda Kay Klein, author of the 2018 book Pure, has created numerous spaces to bring folks together to share their stories about repression, bravery, and ultimately freedom. We talk with Linda about ways that purity culture is both appealing and damaging to teens, the grief and anger that accompanied Linda's writing process, the impact of motherhood on sexuality, and some of the challenges and confusion in finding freedom. We hope you enjoy this episode!

Linda’s Story: Purity Culture, Freedom, and the Power of Narrative

Regardless of your story, the pandemic has been especially brutal on bodies and relationships. From their perspectives as couples and sex therapists, Julia and Jeremiah discuss the impact of COVID-19 on relational and sexual health, including the unhelpfulness of comparing pain, rule following and morality tales, the multiple losses of self and impact on sexuality, and the increase of desire discrepancy among couples. Plus, we give tips for improving your sexual communication! You're so lucky!

Our Story: Sexuality, Relationships, and the Pandemic

Healing doesn't happen in isolation; for Jeremiah and Julia, one major source of healing has been their sex therapy supervisor, Joe Winn. Joe describes ways that sexual repression doubles as covert sexual abuse, using his observations of the queer community’s response to the rigid gender norms and HIV during the 80s and his reminders that religious conservatism’s commitment to heteronormativity strips critical thought out of sex. He also shares how sex is about resistance, revolution, and healing.

Joe's Story: Catholicism, Queerness, and Liberation

When we’ve interviewed women to describe their sexual journeys in the first dozen episodes of Sexvangelicals, many of our guests have talked about how they learned to censor their bodies and navigate the double standards of female sexuality (be sexy, but not too sexy, for example), centered around the word “Don’t”. The past 50 years has provided more conversation about female sexuality; however, even “progressive fields” (read: sex therapy) have couched descriptions of female sexuality around two flawed assumptions within sociological and sexological research. Dr. Wednesday Martin, author of Untrue: Why Nearly Everything We Believe About Women, Lust, and Infidelity Is Wrong and How the New Science Can Set Us Free , identifies these “sacred cows” as (15:00): Women are less sexual than men. Women are “wired” for monogamy in ways that men are not. “We built an entire civilization around the idea that women are less sexual,” Wednesday explains. Dr. Wednesday Martin is a social scientist, storyteller, and #1 NYT bestselling author. For the last 6+ years, she has studied the newest data on female sexuality, with a focus on female non-monogamy across cultures and species. Her book Untrue has been called “revolutionary” by The Atlantic and “indispensable” by Kirkus reviews. Wednesday writes, in her aptly named introduction, “Meet the Adultress”: “Untrue is a book with a point of view—namely that whatever else we might think of them, women who reject monogamy are brave, and their experiences and possible motivations are instructive. Not only because female infidelity is far from uncommon but also because the fact of it and our reactions to it are useful metrics of female autonomy, and the price women continue to pay for seizing privileges that have historically belonged to men.” Wednesday talks with Julia and Jeremiah about her interdisciplinary approach to studying female sexual desire, autonomy, and the practice of nonmonogamy across cultures and species, including: Her personal experience growing up with atheist parents in Grand Rapids, Michigan, a city that boasts the highest number of churches per square mile in the world. Wednesday states, “I grew up believing that I was going to Hell and sex had something to do with it.” (5:00) What made Wednesday the most angry while conducting her research. Wednesday describes that many doctors, even “sex-positive” ones, have little to no understanding of the female erectile network; as a result, many women have experienced significant damage both physically and emotionally, leading Wednesday to assert that this discrepancy is indicative of the ways that our society does not care about female sexual pleasure. (20:00) A word about nomenclature. Wednesday explains why phrases like “cheating”, “infidelity”, and “consensual/ethical nonmonogamy” are problematic, and her preference for using phrases like “disclosed and undisclosed nonmonogamy". Julia and Jeremiah are convinced to change their language when working with clients. (33:00) The trajectory of female sexual desire. Contrary to the cultural zeitgeist, research suggests that monogamy is more difficult on female libido than male libido. Wednesday suggests that accurate research will give women and their partners options to address this unique part of female sexuality, rather than blaming and shaming women for what is a normal part of their experience. (55:00) The bravery of women who explore their sexuality. Wednesday shares, “I wanted to cross over and better understand all the insights of who women are sexually. I wanted to understand in a non-judgmental way.” Also, in one of the funnier moments of our podcast, Wednesday reacts hilariously to the disclosure of our own affair. We are honored that Wednesday sees the telling of our story as an important and brave step for advancing sexual health for women (and all people). (1:06:00). Wednesday summarizes her position: “It is way beyond time that we stopped using loaded terms to describe a simple fact: Nonmonogamy is a normal, healthy part of the repertoire of females of many species, including female humans. It’s very important that we open the door to that conversation.” Check out Wednesday’s website, which includes her other books, professional articles, and two Amazon Original Stories, and her fantastic Instagram page. An enormous thanks to Wednesday for taking the time to share her story and wisdom with us. Let’s heal together!

Wednesday's Story: Autonomy, "Infidelity", and Reclaiming Female Sexuality

Jennifer Wiessner, the first certified sex therapist in Maine, joins Jeremiah and Julia to talk about two sex education programs, Raising Sexually Healthy Children and Girls on Fire, designed to create healthy dialogue between parents and children. They discuss the importance of sex therapists doing their own therapeutic work, the PLISSIT model (a sex therapy staple), and the limitations of men seeking female sex therapists. They also laugh about obsessions with Maine, grocery shopping, and Jane Austen.

Jennifer's Story: Pleasure, Parenting and Sex Education

Lauren shares her history within the Mormon Church. She describes the ways that her faith is continuing to evolve as she trains and practices as a sex therapist. You will hear in her voice and her stories how complicated her relationship is with religion and sexuality. We appreciate her vulnerability, wisdom, authenticity, and humor as she struggles with these concepts. We talk about the metaphor of our bodies as temples, heavy petting, the intersection of motherhood and sexuality, and more!

Lauren's Story: Family, Sexuality, and the Mormon Church

Two of the significant structures in Julia's life that “prepared” her for marriage and her career were the Christian church and the mental health field. Surprisingly, the church and the mental health field share some shocking similarities, including the ways that they set her up to “fail” and then shamed her for it. Julia and Jeremiah talk about the shame cycle of purity culture, the limitations of "the two shall become one", and how the mental health field reinforces poor relational patterns, among others.

Julia's Story: Church, the Mental Health Field, and a Recipe for Divorce

"There's no nuance, no subtlety in the ways that we talk about sex. That's what creates secrecy and people being harmed," explains Deesha Philyaw, author of the 2020 National Book Award Finalist The Secret Lives of Church Ladies. Deesha discusses how Black women can explore empowered sexuality, how fiction writing gives audiences a unique access to sexual exploration, ways that the Black church can better advocate for Black women, and personal reflections about The Secret Lives with Jeremiah and Julia.

Deesha's Story: Black Sexuality and the Secret Lives of Church Ladies

Jeremiah followed the expectations of Christianity well into his mid-30s. His sister? Not so much. Juliana talks about how stepping away from Christianity as a child contributed led to criticism and guilt-trips from parents dedicated an Evangelical worldview, shame around her body, queerness, and fashion decisions, and a rupture in the sibling relationship. Poignant, blunt, and extremely brave, Juliana shines a light on the relationships Evangelicalism builds with folks who don't follow their expectations.

Juliana's Story: A Sibling Relationship and Rebellion in a Christian Family

Reverend Beverly Dale, founder of the Incarnation Institute for Sex and Faith and the co-author of Advancing Sexual Health for the Christian Client: Data and Dogma, joins Jeremiah and Julia to talk about the importance of building relationships between theologians and sexual health professionals. Dale describes her journey of exploring her sexuality and identity, and her vision for creating healing for Christian folks through identifying dogmatic processes and reclaiming sexual pleasure.

Connecting Theologians and Sexual Health Professionals with Rev. Dr. Beverly Dale

"Marriage is a rite of passage into adulthood," explains Jeremiah. Conservative Christianity puts additional pressure on early marriage, as straight marriage is the only permissible setting for sexual expression. While Jeremiah was in a 10-year marriage, he explains that the relationship was set up to fail from the very beginning due to sexual repression and the ensuing cycle of shame and anxiety around sexuality. A post-mortem to a significant part of his adulthood, Jeremiah grieves the parts of himself that he lost in an attempt to fulfill both the church's standards of successful adulthood: rigid expectations of masculinity, and the longevity of a marriage.

Jeremiah's Story: Marriage and the Systems That Set It Up to Fail

A follow-up to episode 6, Julia and Jeremiah talk about the time that they blew up their lives...by having an affair. Yikes. On the one hand, Christian culture demonizes infidelity as the worst thing one can do. On the other hand, movies (read: chick flicks) tend to dismiss or glamorize affairs. Even though their story may read like a Nora Ephron screenplay, Julia and Jeremiah address the strange combination of anxiety, isolation, joy, and shame connected with the beginning of their relationship.

The Story of Jeremiah  and Julia: That Time We Blew Up Our Lives (Part 2 of 2)

Julia and Jeremiah talk about what many couples and sex therapists tend to avoid: infidelity. Oof. They describe their own relationship to identify common themes that are a part of infidelity: avoidance, secrecy, and a lack of accountability. As Julia says, "If we don't humanize infidelity, we risk reinforcing the patterns that contribute to infidelity while adding shame to a person's experience." Shame prevents relationships from flourishing by neglecting the necessity of self-reflection from all partners.

The Story of Jeremiah and Julia: A Complicated Origin (Part 1 of 2)

Julia is shocked when she attends her religious college, meets a Christian Democrat, and engages in dialogue around race and sexuality for the first time. During her time in the social work department, Julia both lost and regained a sense of faith, despite leaving institutionalized reigion. While her education laid a foundation for sexual growth and development, she was not given tools to reflect on her own sexuality until starting sex therapy at 25. Julia shares her experiences of grief, loss, and healing.

Julia's Story: Christian College and the Loss and Rediscovery of Sexuality

Sexvangelicals is a podcast that explores the intersection of religion, relationships, race, and sexuality. Join Jeremiah and Julia for hard conversations, lots of laughs, and celebrating the resilience of the human spirit. Let's heal together!

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